Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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Boeing767copilot
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Boeing767copilot » 17 May 2019, 16:14

Phoenixx wrote:
17 May 2019, 15:49
Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 May 2019, 13:59
There have been rumors that ATCOs and unions asked additional fees. Amounts from 40,000 to 60,000 euros extra are mentioned. Is that correct, Phoenixx?
I laughed a bit.
We have been refusing any and all financial benefits because that has always where we lost all sympathy and honestly money can not solve the issues this is about, which are work life balance, following rules and respecring the staff.
Maybe management made a calculation that one or all of our demands would cost the company this much to make our demands seem absurd (I strongly doubt it since we simply want our rights and rules respected), but I can tell you we did not make a demand for any additional fees, and surely not for amounts this ridiculously high. I have never even heard this before, where did you get this information if I may ask?
I thought something like that. Many statements difficult to check in the last days. It came from a woman working in the cabinet of one of our federal politicians, close to the mediators.
So not really reliable if you ask me. 😌

Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 17 May 2019, 16:46

One just has to browse through the Skeyes press releases to find proof it was more about bonuses then “reducing workload”:

1. Skeyes: “De premies voor nachtdiensten wordt aangepast”. Translated: more bonuses for night shifts.

2. Skeyes: “Er wordt een regeling van stand-by van kracht voor de nachtdiensten”. Translated: we’ll introduce a rule for being standby for night shifts. (most probably a rule with a price tag).

3. Skeyes: “Werkafspraken zouden in dat voorstel enkel gebaseerd zijn op goodwill, vrijwilligheid en financiële stimuli”. Translated: changes to the rostering will only be based on goodwill, voluntarism and financial stimuli.

4. Skeyes: “Alles samen zouden de voorstellen 7,5 miljoen euro kosten of 25.000 euro per jaar per betrokken luchtverkeersleider”. Translated: all together, the proposals from the management result in 7,5M € additional costs, or 25.000 € per atco per year.

Sources:
https://press.skeyes.be/sociaal-akkoord ... yes-232336
and
https://press.skeyes.be/skeyes-directie ... oord-komen

And let’s not forget the main demand: shortening of the work week from 35h/week to 32h/week, and from 35h/week to 30h/week for LGG. Compared to 2018, this will result in more then 4 weeks additional paid holiday (for BRU) and 8 weeks (for LGG).

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 May 2019, 19:09

Passenger wrote:
17 May 2019, 16:46
One just has to browse through the Skeyes press releases to find proof it was more about bonuses then “reducing workload”:
Yes, Scientology is not a cult, vaccins cause autism, the earth is flat and Clinton did not have relations with that woman.
I hope you're a sad pathetic troll, honestly.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 May 2019, 19:16

sean1982 wrote:
17 May 2019, 16:10

As the meeting was cancelled last minute they should have been on the way already no? Is that the case?

Rolling over and accepting everything is meant ti be sarcastic no with all the Working conditions an non-contractual acquired rights you already have??
Was cancelled few hours in advance, so most people didnt bother coming. What's the problem with that?
And no I was dead serious as they are taking away almost all of those good working conditions and our rights are a joke at the moment. We're not trying to get more in case you weren't paying attention, we are trying to actually have those rights respected and are trying to not have all those conditions except a good salary disappear.

flightlover
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by flightlover » 18 May 2019, 00:00

Passenger wrote:
17 May 2019, 16:46
One just has to browse through the Skeyes press releases to find proof it was more about bonuses then “reducing workload”:

1. Skeyes: “De premies voor nachtdiensten wordt aangepast”. Translated: more bonuses for night shifts.
Aangepast translates as adjusted, so,unless specified, it can be both up or down.
Passenger wrote:
17 May 2019, 16:46
2. Skeyes: “Er wordt een regeling van stand-by van kracht voor de nachtdiensten”. Translated: we’ll introduce a rule for being standby for night shifts. (most probably a rule with a price tag).
An assumption, and if a fee is involved I think it is justified as it is with loads of other jobs where standby's are available. (standby meaning: you have to be available for work in a set time after call-out)
Passenger wrote:
17 May 2019, 16:46
3. Skeyes: “Werkafspraken zouden in dat voorstel enkel gebaseerd zijn op goodwill, vrijwilligheid en financiële stimuli”. Translated: changes to the rostering will only be based on goodwill, voluntarism and financial stimuli.
Should be joined with nr 2 and same answer applies.
Although this might also imply extra shifts where it would seem quite medieval if they would force you to give up your day off. Lack of staff will mean a lot more goodwill will have to be available among the workforce. Financial stimuli might help achieve that goal. (Out of own experience I can tell there is an end to that.)
Passenger wrote:
17 May 2019, 16:46
4. Skeyes: “Alles samen zouden de voorstellen 7,5 miljoen euro kosten of 25.000 euro per jaar per betrokken luchtverkeersleider”. Translated: all together, the proposals from the management result in 7,5M € additional costs, or 25.000 € per atco per year.
Well, what would be the equivalent number of atco's you can pay from that kind of money?
Passenger wrote:
17 May 2019, 16:46
And let’s not forget the main demand: shortening of the work week from 35h/week to 32h/week, and from 35h/week to 30h/week for LGG. Compared to 2018, this will result in more then 4 weeks additional paid holiday (for BRU) and 8 weeks (for LGG).
I think I haven't seen that demand being made by the atco's but rather suggested by the management.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers » 18 May 2019, 08:34

Extensive analysis, quite correct as far as I can judge:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/05/17 ... angsommen/

* comparison with Netherlands: they have long-term planning AND a flag carrier with international fame; on the contrary Belgium has no long term planning, the current government has decided nothing during its five-year tenancy, and Belgian assets have been sold abroad, often for peanuts; including SN and Brussels Airport
* everybody is dissatisfied with politicians in general
* Mr. Bellot in particular has realised nothing zero nada, in fact has not even done anything (visibly)
* ATC staff have repeatedly appealed to politicians, up to and including the prime minister, asking above all "to be heard" - but they never were
* politicians are unwilling to take corrective action, because that would imply admitting fault; politicians never like to do that, especially not with elections approaching rapidly
* neither side is in the least open to the other side's feelings and arguments, there is no "room in the middle"
* yet someone will have to give way, at least partially

The one point I miss in this analysis: if politicians did not move, it was at least partly because the issue was not "hot news". So perhaps the guild of journalists could take part of the blame on themselves, for not having brought the issue under the spotlights. But they will perhaps blame ATC staff, who did not, or insufficiently, contact them?
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 18 May 2019, 10:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn-remember » 18 May 2019, 10:36

Call the military in. President Reagan did that during his tenure when faced with ATC striking. It was effective. I don't know if it's feasable in B. But one thing is sure, the strike must end now.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Acid-drop » 18 May 2019, 10:36

Great summary.
Point 1 is maybe key, I wouldnt be surprised if the solution comes from Wallonia, where aviation is one of the crown jewel and where everybody seems to agree
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers » 18 May 2019, 10:49

Call the military in.
Nonsense. "Why" has been explained several times, in this thread and before.
I wouldnt be surprised if the solution comes from Wallonia
Yes, indeed. The one point I distrust is that "some" might be pushing for that: for Wallonia to actually ask for regionalisation. Which brings the matter closer than ever to politics.

Bracebrace
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Bracebrace » 18 May 2019, 11:00

jan_olieslagers wrote:
18 May 2019, 08:34
* politicians are unwilling to take corrective action, because that would imply admitting fault; politicians never like to do that, especially not with elections approaching rapidly
Yet people forget unions ARE politics. There is no difference. Representatives are elected, they have a color, and have advantages coming with the position. From the moment you chose a union, you are "colored" and you "join ranks".

And yes I am in a union because I want some kind of LEGAL protection in case I end up making mistakes, and yes everyday I want to leave because that protection was political colored from day 1 I joined.

No need to make a difference between unions and politics here.

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 18 May 2019, 11:50

Bracebrace wrote:
18 May 2019, 11:00
Yet people forget unions ARE politics. There is no difference. Representatives are elected, they have a color, and have advantages coming with the position. From the moment you chose a union, you are "colored" and you "join ranks".

......

No need to make a difference between unions and politics here.
Just a reaction about your statement.
In this case it's weird to see that ACV/CSC is opposed to a CD&V CEO (although rumours say he has been excluded from CD&V and has shifted to NVA)
The only union who agreed with him is the socialist labeled ACOD/CGSP. Not the NVA best friends !

Bracebrace
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Bracebrace » 18 May 2019, 12:08

I understand that, but I am referring to how political organisations function in relation to admitting faults and elections. Unions are no different. They don't do what is "best", they do what is best in their own interest, and there is a lot of abuse in unions (especially in companies related to state-ownership in some way). And when you are a member, you lose freedom in the interest of possible abuse. Same with politics.

Union representatives are not selected, they are elected.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 18 May 2019, 14:36

Tweet from senior aviation journalist Luk De Wilde, after last Thursday's strike started and before the court ordered the end of the strike:

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers » 18 May 2019, 14:50

Well, talking of "telling only half the tale", this is a strong example. Is this really from a "senior" journalist? Who gave him that title/rank? Good for The Sun , HLN, Dag Allemaal and more such.

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 18 May 2019, 15:28

Passenger wrote:
18 May 2019, 14:36
Tweet from senior aviation journalist Luk De Wilde, after last Thursday's strike started and before the court ordered the end of the strike:
Is this guy still credible ? He' has been bashing controllers from day one. And he is a very good friend of De Cuyper, skeyes CEO !

Furthermore, what he says is not true :
- 8000 EUR netto a month ? No way !
- 32 hours a week ? 35 so far. Much more in reality. I agree 32 is on the table, but so is tijdsregistratie. Why only keep the most interesting part for his statement ?
- extra legale voordelen : what are they ?
- pension at 58 ? Another lie. Ask minister Bacquelaine who can get retired at 58 ! Nobody any more.
Last edited by SR20 on 18 May 2019, 16:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 18 May 2019, 15:42

Hi SR20,

Although i don’t agree with the tone of the tweet, I can’t agree with your statement.

- 8000€ netto is indeed incorrect, it is more around 6500€ for a radar controller (as discussed many times before)
- 35 hours per week is what is supposed to be worked on paper. Before being short of staff, when it was respected, controllers were working around 30 hours per week as they are leaving 1 hour before the end of their shift. No problem with that but let’s not deny it.
The units fully staffed still do that.
There is no time check by the employer when you start and end a shift.
- extra legal advantages are possibly the free train tickets, the premium medical insurance paid by Skeyes, the money given to people with kids (up to 250€/kid/year), the duty flights which count as a day of work, the paid time spent for a medical check (ask pilots if they are paid for that), and so on. All those little advantages quickly add up to quite a good amount of money and comfort.
- retirement at 58: controllers don’t have to work anymore and are paid 80% of their salary to stay at home as soon as they reach 58 years old until their pension (for a full career). Those who elect to stay (purely voluntarily) get an additional 2500€ (before tax) above their salary as long as they agree to work further.
Pension is 3500€/month after tax.

This is reality or...have I forgotten anything?

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 18 May 2019, 16:52

mvg wrote:
18 May 2019, 15:42
Hi SR20,

Although i don’t agree with the tone of the tweet, I can’t agree with your statement.

- 8000€ netto is indeed incorrect, it is more around 6500€ for a radar controller (as discussed many times before)
- 35 hours per week is what is supposed to be worked on paper. Before being short of staff, when it was respected, controllers were working around 30 hours per week as they are leaving 1 hour before the end of their shift. No problem with that but let’s not deny it.
The units fully staffed still do that.
There is no time check by the employer when you start and end a shift.
- extra legal advantages are possibly the free train tickets, the premium medical insurance paid by Skeyes, the money given to people with kids (up to 250€/kid/year), the duty flights which count as a day of work, the paid time spent for a medical check (ask pilots if they are paid for that), and so on. All those little advantages quickly add up to quite a good amount of money and comfort.
- retirement at 58: controllers don’t have to work anymore and are paid 80% of their salary to stay at home as soon as they reach 58 years old until their pension (for a full career). Those who elect to stay (purely voluntarily) get an additional 2500€ (before tax) above their salary as long as they agree to work further.
Pension is 3500€/month after tax.

This is reality or...have I forgotten anything?
You forgot a few things and while most of this is at least partially correct (let's not start again), I would like to ask you for caution in continuously pointing out the good sides and pretending they justify everything and anything.
Ask any air traffic controller if they are willling to give up these extra legal benefits in the negotiations and over 90 percent will instantly reply yes.
They are not the issue on the table, and while it's easy to randomly drag them in a discussion to make your point seem stronger, they have nothing to do with the issues at hand.

This is a perfect example of sad use of journalistic 'power' because I could write a tweet that is equally correct but draws a whole different image. It's an extremely one sided and simplistic approach and the perfect example of the misinformation our management loves to use.

SUDDENLY URGENT SINCE SKEYES IS NOW FACING MASSIVE FINES AND OUR CURRENT STAFFS GOODWILL IS SOLD OUT : European citizens with preferably no knowledge of Belgian and European law, who don't care about their rights whatsoever, must be available 24/7/365 for a highly responsible job.
Internationally competitive wage with extra's everyone you meet will make you feel bad for.
Extralegal benefits include mistakes in your payslip which might be in your advantage, a 2 yearly medical check for which you receive 1 hour overtime and a VIP restaurant for your CEO that you are not allowed to enter.
You will be brought into a challenging environment with tired colleagues, a management that does not answer your questions, and over 10 million angry Belgians the management has turned against you.
Strong preference for optimistic adventurous types with a thick skin as your workschedule will be a continuous surprise, all working and safety conditions are subject to the situation from a management point of view and you never really know what is going to happen next.

There are less lies in this block of text than that tweet.
I still try to be honest and clear about the full story, but people like passenger or De Wilde (and some atcos too, I admit that), focussing so insanely on one side, remaining quiet about the full picture should be called out for what they are, not supported.

737MAX
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by 737MAX » 18 May 2019, 17:37

Phoenixx wrote:
18 May 2019, 16:52
There are less lies in this block of text than that tweet.
I still try to be honest and clear about the full story, but people like passenger or De Wilde (and some atcos too, I admit that), focussing so insanely on one side, remaining quiet about the full picture should be called out for what they are, not supported.
True, Phoenixx. Some people don't have the capacity to look further than those tweets and they won't even bother reading what you have to say anyway. Can't believe the discussion is still about conditions and salary 30 pages later :roll:

Hey btw, the day an ATCO makes a mistake with catastrophic consequences at 63 y.o. on his 11th day of work, maybe people will think differently, but I don't think they will change their mind before such a scenario...

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 18 May 2019, 17:54

Hi guys,

I was only replying to SR20’s post. Reality is not like in the tweet, neither like in his post.

We are not forgetting that the management is doing a very poor job and that being an Atco means having responsibilities.

Btw 737MAX, if you know an Atco who has ever worked after he has turned 60, please let us know. They stop working long before that in Belgium (and this is understandable). At what age will you retire as a pilot?

Last but not least, yes you have 10 millions of angry Belgians against you, yes you have been screwed up by your management, by the way the company is functioning. But this is your (the controller’s) fault: controllers think they are the best, that they could fly better than pilots, that they are untouchables, that they can handle any situation (even a negociation at a high level) but they just can’t! They are not capable of that! Not because they are stupid but because it’s not their job! Even your CEO knows that! He has lawyer and skilled people next to him, he has political support, media support, and so on! You are fighting an army with weapons made of paper! And there you are!
Using the system and behaving like that had to come back to your face at some point. It does now. It’s painful for guys like you Phoenixx, who still seem to be moderate, reasonable and who like their job. But we both know that there is a bunch of guys there who don’t deserve to have this job, who have nothing to do there, some are leading you into the wall. It might be late but it’s time to wake up and all those who really want to move forward and who love their job should gather and find solutions. It is still very possible.
All the best, by the way, because Skeyes could be a wonderful company to work for.

737MAX
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by 737MAX » 18 May 2019, 18:48

mvg wrote:
18 May 2019, 17:54


Btw 737MAX, if you know an Atco who has ever worked after he has turned 60, please let us know. They stop working long before that in Belgium (and this is understandable). At what age will you retire as a pilot?

I don't know any, and I hope and I will never know any ;)
That's exactly my point, they retire early for a reason and that so called aviation expert is nothing else than an ignorant in reality if he doesn't understand why.

Our government scrapped the special pension scheme for pilots a while ago (which allowed pilots to retire after 30 years in a flying career), so for now I'd say the answer is; the day you loose your medical... and with the conditions many pilots have nowadays, it could be much earlier than what we think. Those who fought for their conditions in legacy carriers have various protections and don't care much, those who think they have to be 200% flexible for their low cost company will end up differently.

Working in shifts is already unhealthy, all the money that is offered for your flexibility (where you end up working 10 days in a row) won't change anything to that. Our bodies have limits and we realize that when it's too late.

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