Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

mvg wrote: 27 Apr 2019, 16:59 Hi Phoenixx,

About Liege corridor, whoever has to decide is it’s open, he is not gonna say “no” if it helps Liege staying open. I meant that that procedure could still be activated to lower restrictions on CANAC east for traffic to Brussels for example. If CANAC doesn’t have to take care of inbounds to Liege, that’s already a few aircrafts less. This only in case of serious shortage at ACC.

Indeed there is no corridor for Brussels but:
- it can easily be put in place via Brussels approach who controls till the Dutch border and could take traffic without using ACC (just an example). If traffic comes from Amsterdam FIR below FL75, there is almost even no need for a procedure: it happens daily and is a simple coordination by the Dutch straight with Brussels Approach. (It’s not nothing either but safety wise it’s simple).
About being suited because you give delays and letting the management do its job: well that’s one way to see things and we respect it but if YOU (controllers) take things in hands and come up with something workable on paper, you can also show your good will to everyone. And mostly to the airlines and the people flying. No airline will suit you for taking 10 planes an hour instead of closing the airspace. It’s only my opinion.
And as you pretend that your management is doing nothing, show them that you can do something. After all, experts (those who design procedures) are ex-controllers and they help you with this.

About new procedures and safety cases: in case of restrictions (in case there are x Atcos present, we accept x planes per hour -> better written than now and without closure) that is not necessary, procedures are not changed. Only the amount of traffic is. And BCAA can also be associated to the process so that they can see that it is very safe.
And if you are talking about BCAA (they review your safety cases), put them in the loop as well for the extra hours you have to work, the too many days you are rostered, and so on and so on. It is much more important for them to react on that than on flow restrictions which are deemed safe by professionals. BCAA is your regulator and it surprises me that they are not reacting to all your problems.
If rules are broken and safety is impaired due to fatigue (as an example) they have to know and react.

Thanks again for your input and let’s hope it all comes to an end soon
I believe the procedure from Liège is only allowed in case ACC east closes between certain night hours. So it's more of a replacement than a relieve.
But surely better to have this activated than a full closure at Liège, I think everybody agreed on that.

I like your logic, I really do. But the reality is different I'm afraid.
An airline with (as an example) 20 scheduled flights in a night who can now only do 12 (because theres other airlines too for that 6/hour) and has to deal with delays on a daily basis is also losing a ton of money. And while 3 is better than 0, it is not the planned 20 per night. Also, Liège airport will not be happy at all they are so restricted and can not give their airlines the flights they planned. I see no reason why any of these companies or a third party that suffered a financial loss would not take this to court when they know the reason why there are closures.
As long as there is no indication from management that they want to change capacity numbers officially I don't think you will see specific offers or procedures by controllers either.

Secondly, you say the airlines and the public would see our goodwill, same thing there: while I really like your logic, it's not exactly accurate.
We have no right to communicate publicly (our offer goes to management, not the press) and we will still be the bad guy either way. Delays and staffing issues are (just like the closures) still communicated as hidden strikes and fake sick calls. Management avoids all responsibility, bringing it all on us (they actively contribute to this too) in the media and in political regions. They will not stop doing this, believing they might is a naive mindset staff here grows out of in less than 2 years.

Once again, there is a reason why bcaa, management, politics, dglv, ... don't touch this issue. Even though it might seem very useful and logical, im afraid it's not that easy. Putting maximum numbers on your capacity is something shareholders don't want to see (not that we air traffic controllers care too much about them, but they do have a lot of power) because of their numbers and -once again- is something management doesn't want to see because it would be admitting failing at certain aspects of their job.
We write regular Reports to bcaa, we do what we are ought to do just culture and safety wise, so they are aware. But I won't go into the topic safety reporting further though, too confidential.

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Boeing767copilot »

Has nobody been sick for the past three days?
Isn't that a bit strange?

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

Boeing767copilot wrote: 29 Apr 2019, 07:13 Has nobody been sick for the past three days?
Isn't that a bit strange?
Sick, I don't know. But staff shortage remains :
still restrictions implemented this week-end !
ATCO's calling sick might be fake news eventually 😉
Capture+_2019-04-29-07-22-44.png

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

I don't know the guy, but he might have a point here !

https://willyvandamme.wordpress.com/201 ... s-vliegen/

Sorry, in dutch only.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Not really, I think. He first states that the troubles are due to the ever dwindling governement budgets, which I doubt. At least it has not been mentioned by anyone in this thread, or should have missed that. There seems to be a concensus (at least here) that the root of the issue is the lack of training new ATC staff in the past.

Mr. Van Damme then goes on to bash regional Minister Weyts for wanting to bring in military controllers. Nothing new said there, and it's been a while since we heard anything from Mr. Weyts , he seems to have understood since.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

Boeing767copilot wrote: 29 Apr 2019, 07:13 Has nobody been sick for the past three days?
Isn't that a bit strange?
The atcos that were sick or absent for an extended period still are. There has still not been a single irregularity found in this.
No media reports does not mean all is well or everyone is cured.
Skeyes stopped reacting when the judge set the measure.

I have mentioned this before, with the possible fines in mind, they decided to reduce manning during the day by commandeering atcos to change shifts to a night with a 1 day notice or less.
Hereby moving the delays from the night to the day, affecting much more flights and thousands of passengers.

The only reason it no longer pops up in the press is that management does not leak this anymore since they have no legal ground whatsoever to do this and they would indirectly admit knowingly delaying day flights in favor of night flights.

The rules are very flexible when this is needed by 'the right people' (for the wrong reasons) or the stakes are high.

And to clarify this; The demand to cut in the budget structurally comes from Europe, not Belgium. It is odd that Belgium is one of the only ones to happily follow this though.
Recruitements were delayed further after Tintin because the current CEO had a problematic financial situation to fix (I would guess this specific request came from the shareholders and Belgium) and he misjudged staffing needs the first 2 years.

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luchtzak
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by luchtzak »

The Board of Directors of skeyes met on Monday night in an extra session to discuss the consequences of the current social climate within the company.

https://www.aviation24.be/air-traffic-c ... directors/

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luchtzak
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by luchtzak »


SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

luchtzak wrote: 30 Apr 2019, 23:52
Interesting explanation !
Capture+_2019-05-01-14-29-08.png

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Not sure I understand why Air Fancy flew around.
MUAC takes over above FL245, no?

H.A.

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

Homo Aeroportus wrote: 01 May 2019, 19:38 Not sure I understand why Air Fancy flew around.
MUAC takes over above FL245, no?

H.A.
Due to high demand during summer season, some city pair flights are refused by MUAC : AMS-CDG, DUS-CDG for instance.


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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 »

If you think that Belgian ATC has a record, read this: Ryanair CMO Kenny Jacobs said at the CAPA Summit today: "Staff shortages are the biggest challenge in ATC management in Europe, particularly in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe".
André
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mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

When was the airspace closed due to staff shortage in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe?
If we start to believe what people from Ryanair say...

flightlover
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by flightlover »

mvg wrote: 02 May 2019, 16:40 When was the airspace closed due to staff shortage in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe?
If we start to believe what people from Ryanair say...
maybe not closed, but restricted in numbers quite often.

Out off experience I can tell you that even at the calm moments of the day (at BRU) my patience has been tested quite extensively. Often the planes got slots well past their foreseen departure time. Reason given was often due to atc restrictions. And I can hardly believe they were all due to under staffing at Skeyes.

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

flightlover wrote: 02 May 2019, 17:21
mvg wrote: 02 May 2019, 16:40 When was the airspace closed due to staff shortage in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe?
If we start to believe what people from Ryanair say...
maybe not closed, but restricted in numbers quite often.

Out off experience I can tell you that even at the calm moments of the day (at BRU) my patience has been tested quite extensively. Often the planes got slots well past their foreseen departure time. Reason given was often due to atc restrictions. And I can hardly believe they were all due to under staffing at Skeyes.
When fully staffed Belgian ATC almost never puts restrictions (except due to weather) on inbound or outbound traffic to/from EBBR so what you mention is for sure caused by other ATC units, you are right.

Nevertheless, as we all know, a maximum sector capacity can be reached (even when fully staffed) because there is a limit beyond which it’s not workable (based on the amount of aircraft intended to fly in a defined airspace).
As far as I know, DFS is not experiencing a staff shortage. They are even above required numbers because they are planning a complete system change which will require to work with extra people (shadowing).
Karlsruhe sectors are thus most of the time restricted due to ATC capacity (simply too much traffic), which isn’t necessarily connected to staffing levels.
I believe it’s the same for Barcelona and Marseille (and many other places in Europe).
It’s for sure frustrating for pilots, airlines and passengers. It’s also frustrating for a controller when a pilot is saying that a delay is due to air traffic control when it’s due to something totally different (paperwork, technical, and so on).

flightlover
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by flightlover »

mvg wrote: 02 May 2019, 18:25
When fully staffed Belgian ATC almost never puts restrictions (except due to weather) on inbound or outbound traffic to/from EBBR so what you mention is for sure caused by other ATC units, you are right.

Nevertheless, as we all know, a maximum sector capacity can be reached (even when fully staffed) because there is a limit beyond which it’s not workable (based on the amount of aircraft intended to fly in a defined airspace).
As far as I know, DFS is not experiencing a staff shortage. They are even above required numbers because they are planning a complete system change which will require to work with extra people (shadowing).
Karlsruhe sectors are thus most of the time restricted due to ATC capacity (simply too much traffic), which isn’t necessarily connected to staffing levels.
I believe it’s the same for Barcelona and Marseille (and many other places in Europe).
It’s for sure frustrating for pilots, airlines and passengers. It’s also frustrating for a controller when a pilot is saying that a delay is due to air traffic control when it’s due to something totally different (paperwork, technical, and so on).
I'm just a push back driver/Headset operator so I will always have second hand info on reasons why a slot has been given. But I'm almost always sure I can trust on being informed about the right reason as part of my job is forwarding messages from the crew to loadmaster, airline rep and/or technician (and other way around).

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Acid-drop »

sn26567 wrote: 02 May 2019, 16:09 If you think that Belgian ATC has a record, read this: Ryanair CMO Kenny Jacobs said at the CAPA Summit today: "Staff shortages are the biggest challenge in ATC management in Europe, particularly in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe".
Its time we stop with the borders from the middle age and create a central european unit... or is that so crazy ?
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

Bracebrace
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Bracebrace »

mvg wrote: 02 May 2019, 18:25 I believe it’s the same for Barcelona and Marseille (and many other places in Europe).
With slots of 1 hour and more in the middle of the night? Don't think so. Marseille seems to be the problem. I have a feeling they "organize" themselves so that sectors with the least traffic become restricted (nighttime, region between Marseille and Corsica/Sardinia, much less problems - so far - for the "overland" flights). It was like this last summer, slots are coming back with the rising temperatures...

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

I would like to clarify something regarding these last posts; the cause for the flow measures. I can not speak for other ansps, but I can clarify what I know from experience in Belgocontrol.

The management/hr/planning department plans for a certain number of atcos per shift, and these staff numbers come with a certain inherent maximum capacity. This capacity number depends both on the staff and on the airspace itself (weather and other factors are left out of this explanation as they result in their own specific flow measures), with all operational positions filled, the capacity number is determined by the airspace itself; size, both lateral and vertical (number of levels), airport capacity, airways, ...
When this number is reached during a certain period or there is a risk this number will be exceeded (deducted from the number of flightplans filing through a specific sector with a buffer in time for each flight, both backwards and forwards), there will be flow measures due to 'atc capacity', spreading traffic over a greater period of time.
When there is a shortage of staff compared to this optimal or planned staff number set forward by the ansp, the capacity the unit can handle is reduced because of this, and flow measures should be put in place with the reason 'atc staffing'.

So far I have probably not added much new knowledge, however the reason I am explaining this is the current situation at Belgocontrol.
As a respons the the possible fines, Belgocontrol management has recently decided to reduce staffing numbers in canac for each shift during the day in each unit.
You may remember we suggested this before and in the beginning of negotiations to create a more workable situation and to avoid closures, to no avail.
The official explanation is that this has been decided to give atcos more time off, to reduce the number of consecutive days.
If that was the actual reason, it would have been in every newspaper in the country because they 'gave in' to our demand of the high number of (consecutive) shifts, they are listening and working towards a solution and here is the proof.
However, I doubt any of you actually read this somewhere, I know I haven't.

As a result of this new target staffing, the flow measures during the day that used to be because of 'atc staffing' are now due to 'atc capacity' since there is no staff shortage compared to the target staffing anymore, and so the flow measures are not there because we are short on staff, but because the unit can not handle the capacity demand.
The fact that a week ago there were frequent measures due to staffing is irrelevant, the current target numbers are the determining factor.
Pilots flying the belgian airspace should ask the delivery position for the sector and the reason for their slot, you will notice a remarkable increase in 'atc capacity in a Belgian sector'.

If you wonder about the real reasons for this, there are quite a few.
- Flow measures due to staffing make the CEO and his policy the last 5 years look bad while measures due to capacity make it sound like we have a very desired, full-booked, popular airspace.
The airspace users pay for a service and they are not receiving it, staffing puts the responsibility with the management, capacity does not (necessarily)
- Apart from just sounding bad, there are also actual fines for ansps that have too many slots due to staffing, again a matter of responsibility.
- They need to avoid closures at all costs. Closures during the day are not exactly a risk, but staffing numbers during the night are much lower giving a smaller operational buffer. If an atco would call sick and not be replaced, there would be image damage again, lawsuits, ...
- By reducing staffing during the day they hope to create goodwill again for atcos to take a nightshift from a sick colleague if needed, or ultimately have more staff at home they can commandeer (still illegal but still happens) without affecting their day time staffing, thereby avoiding closures at night AND flow due to staffing by day.
- The reason they do not communicate this at all to the public or the airspace users is because of the result and once again the responsibility. Reduced capacity means a lot of flights during the day get small-medium slots. The combined delay of all these aircrafts, let alone passengers, would be significantly higher than that of a 3-hour night closure (but there is no quarter million euro fine for delays). However, since the cause is 'atc capacity' and not staffing, they avoid being held responsible by airlines or airports as it happened with the night closures.

And just to be complete, management has been pushing supervisors for years already to have flow measures assigned to 'atc capacity' when the real cause was staffing shortage, to avoid a fine and to increse their numbers (and their bonus).

So while this is actually a step in the right direction, it was taken for the wrong reasons and far too late.
We are still awaiting news from the negotiations, silence unfortunately does not mean good news in this situation, on the contrary.

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