Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

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luchtzak
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 15 Mar 2019, 10:20

SR20 wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 08:58
I heard that OO-MAX would be ferried from ALC to BRU today. Anyone to confirm ?

All I found is this new NOTAM :
0843/19
From:14 MAR 19 09:35 Till:26 MAR 19 19:00 EST
Text:BOEING 737-8 MAX AND BOEING 737-9 MAX PROHIBITED IN BELGIAN AIRSPACE EXC NON COMMERCIAL FERRY FLT. REF THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY IN EXERCISE OF ITS POWERS IN ACCORDANCE WITH REGULATION (EU) 2018/1139 ARTICLE 70
Both aircraft will be flown back to Brussels, TUI spokesman Piet Demeyere confirmed Aviation24.be

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/tui- ... s-airport/

convair
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by convair » 15 Mar 2019, 15:18

luchtzak wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 10:20
SR20 wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 08:58
I heard that OO-MAX would be ferried from ALC to BRU today. Anyone to confirm ?

All I found is this new NOTAM :
0843/19
From:14 MAR 19 09:35 Till:26 MAR 19 19:00 EST
Text:BOEING 737-8 MAX AND BOEING 737-9 MAX PROHIBITED IN BELGIAN AIRSPACE EXC NON COMMERCIAL FERRY FLT. REF THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY IN EXERCISE OF ITS POWERS IN ACCORDANCE WITH REGULATION (EU) 2018/1139 ARTICLE 70
Both aircraft will be flown back to Brussels, TUI spokesman Piet Demeyere confirmed Aviation24.be

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/tui- ... s-airport/
As a non-specialist, I don't see the logics in this. Is a ferried plane less likely to experience the same problem as in the 2 fatal accidents? Or is the life of pilots not as worthy as that of pax? Are the ferrying pilots better that those who so unfortunately died in those accidents? Can someone explain?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn-remember » 15 Mar 2019, 16:25

I assume the pilots are free to refuse this mission, without risking their job.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by 737MAX » 15 Mar 2019, 16:54

convair wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 15:18

As a non-specialist, I don't see the logics in this. Is a ferried plane less likely to experience the same problem as in the 2 fatal accidents? Or is the life of pilots not as worthy as that of pax? Are the ferrying pilots better that those who so unfortunately died in those accidents? Can someone explain?
Very good question indeed...

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by jan_olieslagers » 15 Mar 2019, 17:07

I am not sure how important this factor weighed in the decision, but I should think the risk will be less with (a lot) less weight aboard. For as little as we now know, the trouble seems to be with keeping the climb curve within its envelope during climb-out; with less weight, the envelope will be (substantially?) wider, leaving more room for error either by humans or by machinery. Carrying less fuel will take this effect even further.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Themax » 15 Mar 2019, 18:54

jan_olieslagers wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 17:07
I am not sure how important this factor weighed in the decision, but I should think the risk will be less with (a lot) less weight aboard. For as little as we now know, the trouble seems to be with keeping the climb curve within its envelope during climb-out; with less weight, the envelope will be (substantially?) wider, leaving more room for error either by humans or by machinery. Carrying less fuel will take this effect even further.
No the weight doesn't matter. The system only triggers when approaching the stall, which normally never happens during normal flight, there are big margins.

The only thing that may help you or not in case the system fails is the CG position, giving you more or less pitch authority with the elevators. But this has nothing to do with an empty or full plane.

I find it a strange decision to let the aircraft fly empty, either the airplane is good and anybody can fly it, or it's (supposedly) bad and nobody flies it.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace » 15 Mar 2019, 19:14

convair wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 15:18
As a non-specialist, I don't see the logics in this. Is a ferried plane less likely to experience the same problem as in the 2 fatal accidents? Or is the life of pilots not as worthy as that of pax? Are the ferrying pilots better that those who so unfortunately died in those accidents? Can someone explain?
Not better pilots, but usually instructors or examiners. People who also do testflights, acceptance flights, etc... On a 747 ie, 3 engine ferry flights are possible.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 15 Mar 2019, 19:44

Comment by captain Bjorn Moerman on our Facebook page: https://business.facebook.com/aviation2 ... 22R4%22%7D
The Max design was somewhat rushed to the market after the 320 NEO was announced. I personally believe the B737 has probably reached its peak with the NG. Yes the Max is more fuel efficient but not without compromises. Maybe time for a brand new design Boeing?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by convair » 15 Mar 2019, 20:21

Bracebrace wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 19:14
convair wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 15:18
As a non-specialist, I don't see the logics in this. Is a ferried plane less likely to experience the same problem as in the 2 fatal accidents? Or is the life of pilots not as worthy as that of pax? Are the ferrying pilots better that those who so unfortunately died in those accidents? Can someone explain?
Not better pilots, but usually instructors or examiners. People who also do testflights, acceptance flights, etc... On a 747 ie, 3 engine ferry flights are possible.
In other words, better pilots...

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Nevihta » 15 Mar 2019, 20:27

737MAX wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 16:54
convair wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 15:18

As a non-specialist, I don't see the logics in this. Is a ferried plane less likely to experience the same problem as in the 2 fatal accidents? Or is the life of pilots not as worthy as that of pax? Are the ferrying pilots better that those who so unfortunately died in those accidents? Can someone explain?
Very good question indeed...
The problem seems to arise because of engine too powerful.
Perhaps that flying empty allows to use reduced thrust settings thus minimizing the risk ?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 15 Mar 2019, 21:14

3-6 MONTHS / Boeing could need between 3 and 6 months to fix and install new software on its #737MAX aircraft, following the move by the U.S. and other countries to ground the planes this week. The repairs could cost Boeing at least $500 million and delay deliveries of new planes on order, analysts estimate. #ET302 #JT610

On March 14th, Boeing has halted deliveries of 737 MAX airplanes, one day after the jet was grounded in Canada and the US.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace » 15 Mar 2019, 22:41

convair wrote:
15 Mar 2019, 20:21
In other words, better pilots...
That depends on how you define "better".

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn-remember » 15 Mar 2019, 22:50

Well .. Aren't they working on a fix since some months now ? So 3 months to go ... However the solution concept hopefully meets the approval of EASA and FAA before getting developped ?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Desert Rat » 16 Mar 2019, 15:25

I don't understand how Boeing's chief engineering office has validated this envelope protection system with only 2 AOA sensor's relying on one input to validate exceedance.
At contrario, Airbus is using three sensors which required correlation between two of them to validate inputs to Flight control computers and envelope protection activation.
Big difference in concept and redundancy.
That should never have passed CAA checks.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by RTM » 16 Mar 2019, 16:14

Desert Rat wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 15:25
I don't understand how Boeing's chief engineering office has validated this envelope protection system with only 2 AOA sensor's relying on one input to validate exceedance.
At contrario, Airbus is using three sensors which required correlation between two of them to validate inputs to Flight control computers and envelope protection activation.
Big difference in concept and redundancy.
That should never have passed CAA checks.
Good point. I've wondered the same.
But I think they got away with it because the 737 classic/NG/MAX s are developements of an older type and type cetificate. As long as you are developing from an existing TC, not all the latest requirements apply like it would if you are developing a new aircraft.

For instance, the ATR42, DHC8 and F50, tree competitors, were all developed in the 80's. The ATR and Dash had elevator and aileron disconnect systems incorporated, because the requirements of the day mandated them for newly developed aircraft. The Fokker did not, as it was developed from the F27 Type Certificate.

My guess is that something similar applies here. Nevertheless, I agree that Boeing could have, and probably should have upgraded on their own initiative… Probably already with the NG...

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by RTM » 16 Mar 2019, 16:24

On the other hand... Airbusses are 100% fly-by-wire. The 737 isn't. So where an airbus would have to rely on more inputs and computers to safeguard maximum redundancy, the 737 can fly totally mechanical should the need arise.
The question is where th computerized envelope protections fit in. They certainly were not part of the 737 jurassic...

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 16 Mar 2019, 23:06

Data from the CVR has been successfully downloaded by BEA and transferred to the Ethiopian investigation team. Communication will be made on their behalf. BEA did not listen to the audio files.
André
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Bracebrace
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace » 17 Mar 2019, 15:21

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/

I do have to add, faulty safety analyses is nothing new, techniques are evolving (most known UAL 232)

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 17 Mar 2019, 15:49

Ethiopian Airlines has switched flight number ET302/303 to ET318/319 since 12MAR19. ET302 was a codeshare flight with Air India AI7574, Asky Airlines KP1006, Kuwait Airways KU6302, Singapore Airlines SQ6076.

Source: Routesonline
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 17 Mar 2019, 15:52

sn26567 wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 23:06
Data from the CVR has been successfully downloaded by BEA and transferred to the Ethiopian investigation team. Communication will be made on their behalf. BEA did not listen to the audio files.
Data from the FDR has been successfully downloaded by BEA and transferred to the Ethiopian investigation team. Communication will be made on their behalf.
André
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