Brussels Airlines in 2019

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Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Jetter » 22 Jan 2019, 17:05

Ansett wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 16:54
I agree. CS will only allow SN to fly long haul to Western and Central Africa and will want us to fly thru FRA, MUC, or Zurich to, for instance, fly to North America (but not me).
You forget about the transatlantic JV LH has with UA. If a passenger flies on UA from BRU they make the same amount of money as on SN. I think LH wants UA to do most flying from BRU and in return they can fly more to the US from their own hubs.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Conti764 » 22 Jan 2019, 23:27

Ansett wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 16:54
I agree. CS will only allow SN to fly long haul to Western and Central Africa and will want us to fly thru FRA, MUC, or Zurich to, for instance, fly to North America (but not me).
What sense does that make? Give up (a large part of) whatever Belgian market there is to KL, AF and BA?
As to CF's statements today in Lalibre, if LH gives brand new aircraft to SN like it does for itself and LX, SN's performance will increase. And when she says that if «we» want to create a large paneuropean platform, we cannot keep all these individual brands, does that imply that LX's European flights will also be integrated into EW ? (no, of course). No level playing field.
First of all I am wondering how SN can improve its figures when they are dragged down with EW's horrific performance? It's not SN's figures that matter, but EW's.

The difference in aproach between SN on one side and LX on the other is, except the fact that LX was taken over by a more favourable LH board, LH considers BRU (and Belgium) as a lower end of the market then ZRH and Switzerland. And honestly, I can follow their reasoning. The reason why AMS took such a high flight is mainly because of KL's vast hub and spoke system and the very deep cooperation with US giants DL... I could have seen a similar future (albeit smaller) for SN with AA, but not with UA. The reason is the A++ JV, in which all companies have a say about what flight is being done by which airline.

And indeed, in a longer term I could see Austrian going down the same path if LH succeeds in making EW a success, thus only retaining LH itself and LX as premium brands in Europe, SN and OS as long haul entities flying from their respective hubs on top of EW doing the European flying.

I for one do not believe the doomsday predcitions often seen on this forum about SN or BRU. LH will (let SN) fly from and to wherever they can make money. If SN can sustain a long haul flight outside Africa, LH will let them fly it from BRU. At LH they are not stupid and they know most pax (if not all) will prefer direct flying over some short hop on EW to FRA of MUC to fly intercontinental. But SN will only be allowed to fly to where they can make money. If JFK for example is making money, SN will continue to fly to JFK. If SN fails to make money on BOM, the flight will be axed.

And if indeed LH is looking to cut most long haul flying from BRU, BAC would be wise to look for alternatives. As long as LHR is congested, have BA set up some sort of shuttle flying between LHR and BRU and have other OW airlines fly long haul into BRU to transfer to BA. I know in they are working at expanding capacity on LHR, but in the meantime BRU might prove to be a solid base for those airlines meaning they'd stay once capacity at LHR will grow. I'm just thinking out of the box, though.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Conti764 » 22 Jan 2019, 23:31

Jetter wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 17:05
Ansett wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 16:54
I agree. CS will only allow SN to fly long haul to Western and Central Africa and will want us to fly thru FRA, MUC, or Zurich to, for instance, fly to North America (but not me).
You forget about the transatlantic JV LH has with UA. If a passenger flies on UA from BRU they make the same amount of money as on SN. I think LH wants UA to do most flying from BRU and in return they can fly more to the US from their own hubs.
I don't see much activity at UA to support this theory. Since UA merged with CO, nothing has happened except for some equipment changes on several routes. Ever since 2009 UA has only been flying daily to EWR, ORD and IAD. No second flight to EWR, no flight to IAH, no flight to the West Coast,...

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by RoMax » 22 Jan 2019, 23:41

Conti764 wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 23:27
First of all I am wondering how SN can improve its figures when they are dragged down with EW's horrific performance? It's not SN's figures that matter, but EW's.
SN is and will remain a seperate entity, both legally and operationally. Totally regardless of the consolidated public Eurowings Group figures, SN is judged by its board by its own performance and that can be very clearly differentiated from one another. And if SN is suffering from consequences of an EW integration, that will be cristal clear. Besides, one needs to know why EW's performance was horrific in 2018 and where exactly in the business the problems where, it's not quite as easy as assuming the EW project is not 'working'.

One a sidenote ref. UA. They just moved their Belgian offices to b.house (in Germany they are also located in the LH headquarters in FRA).

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Jetter » 23 Jan 2019, 05:59

Conti764 wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 23:31
Jetter wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 17:05
Ansett wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 16:54
I agree. CS will only allow SN to fly long haul to Western and Central Africa and will want us to fly thru FRA, MUC, or Zurich to, for instance, fly to North America (but not me).
You forget about the transatlantic JV LH has with UA. If a passenger flies on UA from BRU they make the same amount of money as on SN. I think LH wants UA to do most flying from BRU and in return they can fly more to the US from their own hubs.
I don't see much activity at UA to support this theory. Since UA merged with CO, nothing has happened except for some equipment changes on several routes. Ever since 2009 UA has only been flying daily to EWR, ORD and IAD. No second flight to EWR, no flight to IAH, no flight to the West Coast,...
Not yet indeed. I meant the scenario when LH would reduce SN to an African brand. Then it would be more likely to see significant expansion of UA at BRU instead of LH assuming everyone from BRU will take other LH hubs to the US.

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CTBke
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by CTBke » 23 Jan 2019, 10:51

Conti764 wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 23:31
Jetter wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 17:05
Ansett wrote:
22 Jan 2019, 16:54
I agree. CS will only allow SN to fly long haul to Western and Central Africa and will want us to fly thru FRA, MUC, or Zurich to, for instance, fly to North America (but not me).
You forget about the transatlantic JV LH has with UA. If a passenger flies on UA from BRU they make the same amount of money as on SN. I think LH wants UA to do most flying from BRU and in return they can fly more to the US from their own hubs.
I don't see much activity at UA to support this theory. Since UA merged with CO, nothing has happened except for some equipment changes on several routes. Ever since 2009 UA has only been flying daily to EWR, ORD and IAD. No second flight to EWR, no flight to IAH, no flight to the West Coast,...
True but on a side note they didn't downgrade IAD and EWR during winter to the 767-300/400 like they did last year, keeping the 777 all year round on those routes is already a step in the right direction, although a 2nd flight to EWR could be reconsidered now.
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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by luchtzak » 23 Jan 2019, 15:04


Linty
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Linty » 23 Jan 2019, 15:36

The sixth Belgian icon should be something with beer...

brabel
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by brabel » 23 Jan 2019, 15:53

Linty wrote:
23 Jan 2019, 15:36
The sixth Belgian icon should be something with beer...
I don't get why a new Belgian icon if the name's gonna change into Eurowings...

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by lumumba » 23 Jan 2019, 16:58

It will be a Belgian icon on a Eurowing plane....to start the name change smoothly....
Just guessing.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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travellover
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by travellover » 23 Jan 2019, 18:45

On another aviation discussion thread about Austrian aviation news, the future of ''Austrian'' is regularely at issue. Name change too. I read by example a mention to ''Eurowings Austrian''. And that it will not be easy to skip ''Austrian'' name because the airline is very respected in that country.
Eurowings Belgium could be a good compromise.
Name change for short and middle haul is an (unavoidable) thing, no mention about a livery change, nevertheless (until now😗). Objectively, EW's colour scheme is dull. SN is better (omho).

Happy New year 2019 !
Cheers

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sn26567 » 23 Jan 2019, 20:16

Linty wrote:
23 Jan 2019, 15:36
The sixth Belgian icon should be something with beer...
It might also have to do with Art Nouveau (which lost the last final against the Smurfs).
André
ex Sabena #26567

Victorblaise
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Victorblaise » 24 Jan 2019, 18:10

What will happen to the crew? Will the uniform change? Will the crew only work shorthaul or only long haul? There’s now something like mixed crew, will this not exist anymore? I’m kind of scared tbh..

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by nordikcam » 24 Jan 2019, 18:46

Victorblaise wrote:
24 Jan 2019, 18:10
What will happen to the crew? Will the uniform change? Will the crew only work shorthaul or only long haul? There’s now something like mixed crew, will this not exist anymore? I’m kind of scared tbh..
A matter of taste but as far as I'm concerned the Eurowings crew uniform is the most vulgar and ugly I've ever seen in my life as a passenger in every corner of the world !

Victorblaise
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Victorblaise » 24 Jan 2019, 19:07

nordikcam wrote:
24 Jan 2019, 18:46
Victorblaise wrote:
24 Jan 2019, 18:10
What will happen to the crew? Will the uniform change? Will the crew only work shorthaul or only long haul? There’s now something like mixed crew, will this not exist anymore? I’m kind of scared tbh..
A matter of taste but as far as I'm concerned the Eurowings crew uniform is the most vulgar and ugly I've ever seen in my life as a passenger in every corner of the world !
Thank you! Indeed, I really dislike it myself. And I’m joining SN as a CCM in March, I really hope I won’t need to put on this uniform.. my poor female colleagues..

sterling
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sterling » 24 Jan 2019, 23:22

As I suspected long time ago, Carsten Spohr' pet project must succeed and he will sacrifice SN to show better results and reap the bonusses for his promises to the Board of Directors concerning EW performance.
One of the way to shore up EW performance is to prevent SN to publish the passenger numbers, as the contrast (or gap) would be very visible.

The Belgian board is basically symbolic and all carefully chosen to be yes-men and yes-women.
Remember, CS is very German-biased and has some sort of a disrespect for everybody who is not German speaking, hence his different treatment for OS and LX.

The strategy to transfer "2nd" hand aircraft to SN is almost like a deliberate act in the sense of "ok, let's show that SN is really inefficient by loading up with old (high maintenance) aircraft" and give the shiny more fuel efficient aircraft to LH/LX and to a lesser extent to OS.
Depriving SN from more long-haul flights seem to be another trick to convince the Board that it doesn't make sense to invest in SN as a separate brand.
It would accelerate the believe that SN as a network airline is not viable.

Christoph Franz (his predecessor) was a different person and I'm almost convinced it would have gone different if the board has elected a different Lufthansa CEO than CS.

Again, I still believe that we would have been better off with British Airways (IAG) and especially for Brussels Airport.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Ansett » 25 Jan 2019, 02:44

You are totally right. A great synthesis of things I (and other forum members) said in previous posts.
There is one point on which I disagree with you. Christoph Franz was not a different person (than CS).
He was just as bad. He did not want to make the decision to buy the remaining SN shares and consequently postponed the deal several times (which the Belgian shareholders should never have accepted) and handed over what he considered the "Belgian hot potato" to his successor, CS, who had the idea of the century : EW, which at the same time would make it possible for him to get rid of SN which he did not want in his thoroughbred airlines stable where there is only room for LH and LX.
Add to this that Germans like the Swiss for their sense of detail and excellence, but they don't like (even hate) Austrians, and the LH Group picture is complete.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Ansett » 25 Jan 2019, 03:04

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... f-its-ceo/

Congratulations, André. This is indeed an excellent synthesis of forum discussions on this subject.
Thanks also for your personal comments.

There is one thing you did not pick up, however (or I missed it).

In a previous interview (when she was appointed SN CEO ?), CF said there would be new long haul flights for SN if there is a market for it. Add to this that SN is to become mainly a point-to-point airline (dixit CS & CF), there will never be new long haul flights for SN, because there is no market strong enough in Belgium for point-to-point long haul flights. SN's Africa flights are very successful because they are not point-to-point, but because they can count on many transfer pax. The same applies to most LH and even more, LX flights, btw.
CS wants us to fly long haul with LH, LX (and EW) by connecting in German and Swiss airports.

As to CF stating that a new iconic SN livery is in the making. Let's not be naive. It's just a way of making us believe she cares about SN's Belgian character. It's a way to sugaring the bitter pill of SN's integration into EW.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by JustPlanes » 25 Jan 2019, 06:49

I also want to say that I enjoyed reading the above article or editorial.... all very true...
I just wonder if the people who gave Brussels Airlines away to Lufthansa had not learned anything from the Sabena/Swissair fiasco! I mean when you give/sell 100% of Brussels Airlines to Lufthansa doesn't that mean that Lufthansa can now do exactly what it wants with Brussels Airlines?

And trust me as a Belgian and former employee of Sabena I would love nothing more than for Brussels Airlines to keep its name and grow.... but 100% is 100%... if it was so important to Brussels Airlines to keep its name it should have made some major agreements with a US, South America, Asian airlines and build their own and make it a success.

How come airlines like Ethiopian and Turkish can build fantastic fleets or brand new airplanes that fly all over the world and the airline of the center of Europe can only fly old planes to a some places... I don't get it!

Anyway hoping for the best for Brussels Airlines and mostly for the employees who no doubt must be going through a lot!

PttU
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by PttU » 25 Jan 2019, 12:08

JustPlanes wrote:
25 Jan 2019, 06:49
How come airlines like Ethiopian and Turkish can build fantastic fleets or brand new airplanes that fly all over the world and the airline of the center of Europe can only fly old planes to a some places... I don't get it!
Support by government, employee cost,... to keep prices low and make a nice profit and attract more customers. And maybe also not too much competition from neighbouring countries?

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