Alitalia saved by the Government and reborn as ITA Airways

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Ozzie1969
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Ozzie1969 »

Passenger wrote: 29 Aug 2018, 09:302. The Italians won't leave the EU. All EU member states have seen what damage the brexit has caused. Not one single EU country will exit.
That must be some crystal ball you've got.

If Italy or any other country doesn't leave the EU, it's not because of so-called 'damage'. It's because, unlike the British, the citizens of said EU countries have no say in the matter whatsoever. God forbid that the EU should ever be confronted with another case of democracy !

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Passenger »

Ozzie1969 wrote: 29 Aug 2018, 11:43
Passenger wrote: 29 Aug 2018, 09:302. The Italians won't leave the EU. All EU member states have seen what damage the brexit has caused. Not one single EU country will exit.
That must be some crystal ball you've got.

If Italy or any other country doesn't leave the EU, it's not because of so-called 'damage'. It's because, unlike the British, the citizens of said EU countries have no say in the matter whatsoever. God forbid that the EU should ever be confronted with another case of democracy!
I'm a follower of the Church of Mark Eyskens and his definition of democracy: "de kiezer heeft altijd gelijk, ook als hij ongelijk heeft" '(= "the voter is allways right, even when he's wrong"). Citizens in all EU countries can decide on an EU-exit: they can elect representatives in their own parliament who will vote for an exit. But politicians all over Europe by now have understood what damage the brexit has done, does and will do to the U.K., so they won't put an exit in their program. Even the most anti-Europe parties won't. Example for Belgium: I'm not familiar at all with the Vlaams Belang program, but I wonder if they will go to the elections with "Belgium out of the EU".

Translated to Alitalia: when the European Commission decides that those 600m+300m is illegale state aid, to be recovered immediately, Italy won't leave the EU. Actually, the Italian government will perhaps be relieved that they are forced by upper law to drop Alitalia.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote: 29 Aug 2018, 09:30
lumumba wrote: 29 Aug 2018, 00:43 Hey Passenger.
You don't get it they don't care about the EU if necessary they will get out the Italians are tired of the EU liberal rules and believe me they mean it.
ALITALIA will survive anyway and the EU will make noise but will not move.
You still don't get it.

1. The decision about state aid it not taken by politicians, but by eurocrats: well paid public servants and their chiefs, with a 100 times better "rules knowledge" then politicians. If they conclude to their rules that it's state aid, the (political) EU-Commissioner will follow that decision.

2. The Italians won't leave the EU. All EU member states have seen what damage the brexit has caused. Not one single EU country will exit.

3. Alitalia is loosing money just by flying and they have trumendous debts. Their only assets: the name "Alitalia" and perhaps some slots. The only reason why the Italian government is supporting them, is because they bring tourist to Italy. But sooner or later, the Finance minister will conclude that the return on investment is negative.
Time will tell....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

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Alitalia received investment interest from ... Italian rail company Ferrovie dello Stato once an airline-sector investor has been found to develop the long-haul business and synergies with its own business.
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by jan_olieslagers »

But surely the FS is itself owned and controlled by government?? So it is only new wine in old bags (i.e. state aid?)

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

EasyJet is still talking to the Italian government over Alitalia short-haul operations but CEO of the former, Johan Lundgren, stressed that any deal needs to make commercial sense.

Meanwhile, Italy’s government is courting Air China as a minority investor in Alitalia, as Rome shifts away from the sale of the national carrier.

Commedia!
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Boeing is a possible partner for troubled Italian airline Alitalia while Lufthansa is "not among the more strategic partners," Transport Minister Danilo Toninelli said Tuesday.

Boeing, he said "can certainly be considered a partner, considering the fact that it builds planes and we need a lot of them".

Asked about Lufthansa, the minister said: "Today I would not talk of airlines in particular, even though I think Lufthansa is not among the more strategic partners".

Toninelli said "I think that October may be a month in which some issues can be solved, but certainly by the end of the year we will have a solution".
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Passenger »

There is no decision yet by the European Commission about "state aid to Alitalia". Some time ago, some people suggested that the E.C. won't condemn Italy because the E.C. needs Italy so badly. A state aid case "Naples Port Authority" proofs that Italy has no wild card from the E.C.
Press release E.C. 20/09/2018:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-5836_en.htm

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Alitalia is looking to complete the sale of a 49% stake to a private partner by November, ahead of a bridge loan repayment in December 2018.

Good luck! Especially since Alitalia workers plan to strike over labour contracts and questions about the future of the company if the government fails to propose a solution by 31 October 2018.

And the candidate for the 49% is unlikely to be Lufthansa, which remains open to investing in a restructured Alitalia, but not in the Italian’s carrier’s current state.
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Will there ever be an end to that comedy? Italy is working on an extension of as much as six months to a Dec. 15 deadline for Alitalia to repay a 900 million euro loan to the State. Not sure that the European Commission will appreciate...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKCN1MG0KE
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote: 07 Oct 2018, 14:19 Will there ever be an end to that comedy? Italy is working on an extension of as much as six months to a Dec. 15 deadline for Alitalia to repay a 900 million euro loan to the State. Not sure that the European Commission will appreciate...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKCN1MG0KE
Six months is a bit long indeed. But an extention till 25th December should be allowed. With no other airline willing to "invest", their only way out is a vist from Santa Claus.

(by the way: it seems they have missed the deadline for the first payment: 30th Sept 2018).

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Passenger »

A EUR 600 million bridge loan to Alitalia was provided for in Decree Law No 55 of 2 May 2017. This loan, granted by the State, with an interest rate equal to the 6-month Euribor rate published on the working day preceding the payment, plus 1 000 basis points, was to be repaid within six months as from the first disbursement of the loan, i.e. by 5 November 2017, with priority over the repayment of any other debt owned by Alitalia in the extraordinary administration procedure.

In May 2017, an attempt to sell Alitalia’s assets via a tendering procedure started, whose original deadline for the selection of the winning bidder was postponed by Decree Law No 148 of 16 October 2017 from November 2017 to 30 April 2018.

In view of the prolongation of the tendering process, Decree Law No 148/2017 as converted into law by Law No 172 of 4 December 2017 also extended the repayment of the EUR 600 million State loan until 30 September 2018 and increased the loan by an additional EUR 300 million, to be repaid by 31 December 2018, bringing the total loan amount to EUR 900 million (‘the initial loan’ and ‘the loan extension’ will jointly be referred to as ‘the measures’).

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Alitalia unions reject downsizing of the airline’s workforce as a proposed measure to save the company.

Why am I not surprised? In a country where the Government shows the wrong example by increasing the deficit against the objections of the European Commission...
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

White smoke in view? Alitalia commissioners want to complete their examination of the proposals received for the sale of the company next week.

And among the surprising proposals, Alitalia may receive possible interest from investment fund Brookfield Asset Management (Canada) who could join the offer from the Italian railway company Ferrovie dello Stato.
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote: 10 Nov 2018, 18:52 White smoke in view? Alitalia commissioners want to complete their examination of the proposals received for the sale of the company next week.

And among the surprising proposals, Alitalia may receive possible interest from investment fund Brookfield Asset Management (Canada) who could join the offer from the Italian railway company Ferrovie dello Stato.
The European Commission will reject a take over by Italy's railway company because it's state owned. The take over then is state aid.

The commissioners may gain some time for Alitalia with such take over bid, but when the European Commission regards it as gain of time indeed, they will react as such.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote: 10 Nov 2018, 20:39
sn26567 wrote: 10 Nov 2018, 18:52 White smoke in view? Alitalia commissioners want to complete their examination of the proposals received for the sale of the company next week.

And among the surprising proposals, Alitalia may receive possible interest from investment fund Brookfield Asset Management (Canada) who could join the offer from the Italian railway company Ferrovie dello Stato.
The European Commission will reject a take over by Italy's railway company because it's state owned. The take over then is state aid.

The commissioners may gain some time for Alitalia with such take over bid, but when the European Commission regards it as gain of time indeed, they will react as such.
The Italian government was very clear about it they don't care if they don't receive the aprovel from Brussels!
They will do there plan with or without the EU like there national budget was done,and there are right in my perspective.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by ezis_bis »

lumumba wrote: 10 Nov 2018, 22:22 The Italian government was very clear about it they don't care if they don't receive the aprovel from Brussels!
They will do there plan with or without the EU like there national budget was done,and there are right in my perspective.
Actually they already adapted their budget a bit. The interest they have to pay on their debt went way up recently. If they think the EU commission is an issue, I fear they will be very surprised by the way the markets will react. And not in a good way.
I also think Italy better spends his money elsewhere. They better invest in Infrastructure, Health Care and Schools than in this never ending story about a bottomless pit

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by lumumba »

ezis_bis wrote: 11 Nov 2018, 02:14
lumumba wrote: 10 Nov 2018, 22:22 The Italian government was very clear about it they don't care if they don't receive the aprovel from Brussels!
They will do there plan with or without the EU like there national budget was done,and there are right in my perspective.
Actually they already adapted their budget a bit. The interest they have to pay on their debt went way up recently. If they think the EU commission is an issue, I fear they will be very surprised by the way the markets will react. And not in a good way.
I also think Italy better spends his money elsewhere. They better invest in Infrastructure, Health Care and Schools than in this never ending story about a bottomless pit
They now what there are doing if the interest go up to much to country will go bankrupt and the banks will lose everything.
They Italian government is ready to go back to the Lira without any debt anymore that's maybe what should happen for once that the banks also pay for the mistake they did.
They took the risk to lend money to easy they pay for the risk but not the Italian people who suffers already to much.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by ezis_bis »

lumumba wrote: 11 Nov 2018, 12:57 They now what there are doing if the interest go up to much to country will go bankrupt and the banks will lose everything.
They Italian government is ready to go back to the Lira without any debt anymore that's maybe what should happen
Even if they revert to the Lira, the debt remains. I don't see why that would go away. It will even get more expensive to pay back !
Besides, the banks going bankrupt will mainly harm the Italian citizens having money in those banks or losing these services. It's completely bonkers.

But all of this aside, this is not the right place to discussie this

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by lumumba »

ezis_bis wrote: 11 Nov 2018, 13:31
lumumba wrote: 11 Nov 2018, 12:57 They now what there are doing if the interest go up to much to country will go bankrupt and the banks will lose everything.
They Italian government is ready to go back to the Lira without any debt anymore that's maybe what should happen
Even if they revert to the Lira, the debt remains. I don't see why that would go away. It will even get more expensive to pay back !
Besides, the banks going bankrupt will mainly harm the Italian citizens having money in those banks or losing these services. It's completely bonkers.

But all of this aside, this is not the right place to discussie this
Yes it is it's linked to Alitalia....
If the country go bankrupt they have no dept anymore it's over,sure they will have to adapt there economy to somthing else out of the euro and a more national one but without debt there economy will flourish.
They even could be example of a new way what has to be the Greek way but they did not do it why nobody nows!

Like Greece the biggest part of the dept is in hand of banks outside Italy and anyway the Italian banks are bankrupt already.
Last edited by lumumba on 11 Nov 2018, 13:55, edited 1 time in total.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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