Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

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Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 10:52 So you are suggesting that all employees are launching a court case paid by whom? Themselves? If they cant even sustain themselves? Secondly, if they would (all of them) then Ryanair would suspend them .... the result would be the same as a strike, only longer with no end date. You’re even more disconnected from reality than I though
It's 100% realism, based upon O'Leary's quote "we won't pay, unless ordered to do so in court".

Paid by who? Paid by the looser = Ryanair. With costs prepaid by the trade unions legal department.

The real disconnection from reality comes from those, believing that strikes will lead to O'Leary giving in.

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 11:06
sean1982 wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 10:52 So you are suggesting that all employees are launching a court case paid by whom? Themselves? If they cant even sustain themselves? Secondly, if they would (all of them) then Ryanair would suspend them .... the result would be the same as a strike, only longer with no end date. You’re even more disconnected from reality than I though
It's 100% realism, based upon O'Leary's quote "we won't pay, unless ordered to do so in court".

Paid by who? Paid by the looser = Ryanair. With costs prepaid by the trade unions legal department.

The real disconnection from reality comes from those, believing that strikes will lead to O'Leary giving in.
Thats not answer to the most important issue. If all employees take Ryanair to court simultaneously, they will be suspended/fired. Same as a strike, just longer with no end date.

flightlover
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by flightlover »

Passenger wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 11:06
sean1982 wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 10:52 So you are suggesting that all employees are launching a court case paid by whom? Themselves? If they cant even sustain themselves? Secondly, if they would (all of them) then Ryanair would suspend them .... the result would be the same as a strike, only longer with no end date. You’re even more disconnected from reality than I though
It's 100% realism, based upon O'Leary's quote "we won't pay, unless ordered to do so in court".

Paid by who? Paid by the looser = Ryanair. With costs prepaid by the trade unions legal department.

The real disconnection from reality comes from those, believing that strikes will lead to O'Leary giving in.
I wouldn't be sure about that statement. For now the shareholders are backing O'Leary because he is doing what they want: make money for them. But the headwind is increasing and it is getting personal due to his press statements. In the end O'Leary will have to give in or be removed due to his presence becoming more of a liability than an advantage.

The use of unions is achieving the same condition for large groups of workers. It's not called a law firm.

PttU
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by PttU »

brabel wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 09:37
737MAX wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 08:37
All you care about is passenger rights. Good. Fantastic. We all got the point too. Passenger have rights, yes. But you can’t blame the employees for not respecting their rights. You just can’t. And as already said many times by others, these passengers paying peanuts to fly with Ryanair perfectly know which airline they are flying with from the moment they buy their ticket online... do we need to feel sorry for them? Probably, their travel plans are destroyed. But they knew the risks when choosing them.
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with your last sentence especially.
It's not because someone chooses to fly ryanair, they "know" that their plane won't take off.
It's not because people want to fly on low fares that they agree with a cancelled flight.

According to your statement: if someone buys some cheap car, they know their car won't last long?
You want what you pay for. If you buy a cheap car, you want it to drive.
If you buy a cheap airline ticket, you want to fly.

And yes, you should feel sorry for everyone that's affected by a strike.
As a passenger you don't always get a choice to either pay super-low-fares with super-low quality or pay a "normal" price with a "normal" chance your flight will go as planned and a "normal" treatment if anything goes wrong. Sometimes you fly Ryanair (or another LCC) just because that flight is the only option or just suits best.
Passenger wrote: 09 Aug 2018, 20:39 And another question: some collegues have organized a travel package with FR flights. Travel legislation now forces them to buy other flights for the passengers. Have you any idea how much 5 last minutes tickets to Venice cost for a Friday evening? Have you any idea how that travel agent feels, knowing that no one will reimburse those extremely expensive tickets?
One might only hope that travel agent doesn't offer packages with FR anymore, or adds some kind of disclaimer when the travellers still want lowest price and thus are okay with the Ryanair-risks. If the travel agent just offered the package without clearly mentioning Ryanair and specifying the risks, it's their own fault and they should indeed be "punished" by paying the price of those last-minute flights to Venice.

But the same tension between low prices versus decent treatment goes for the entire industry, not only Ryanair. If the ground handling crew goes on strike because any (or every) airline wants to pay the minimum or preferably even less, both the super-cheap-ticket-travelers and people willing to pay a reasonable price are hit. And no, flying a private plane doesn't count as a reasonable price :p
After this strike, people will still be flying FR for 6.99eur in stead of another airline for 69eur. So a good alternative (or addition) to the strikes would be to inform passengers of the results of their choice to fly so cheap: tell them "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys". Tell them what a reasonable price would be, tell them what happens in the background and what the price of all that is... and indirectly promote the airlines which do offer a "normal" service for a "normal" price.

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger »

Court case in the Netherlands, 09th August 2018, VNV ("the pilots") versus Ryanair:

verdict:
https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzie ... :2018:7026

DIBO
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by DIBO »

dutch court ruling wrote:1.8.De bezwaren van VNV tegen dergelijke aankondigingen zijn gegrond op de vrees dat Ryanair in dat geval stakingsbrekende acties kan ondernemen. Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden; meer in het bijzonder dat Ryanair, zoals zij al heeft aangeboden, vluchten ingeval van tijdig aangekondigde stakingen zal annuleren en dus niet piloten van elders zal inzetten. De voorzieningenrechter zal Ryanair aan deze toezegging houden bij het aan VNV op te leggen gebod om in het vervolg stakingen op een door de voorzieningenrechter redelijk geachte termijn van 72 uur aan te kondigen, opdat Ryanair tijdig haar passagiers kan waarschuwen. Met deze maatregel hoopt de voorzieningenrechter een maatregel op te leggen die recht doet aan de wederzijdse belangen van partijen
So just after this ruling, Ryanair is breaking it's commitment to the court "not to break the strike by calling in pilots from elsewhere, if the 72h strike pre-announcement period is respected". Today's strike was announced more than 72h beforehand, yet they called in 'foreign' pilots to break this strike

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sn26567
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sn26567 »

sn26567 wrote: 09 Aug 2018, 20:24 Test Achats/Aankoop is going to court on behalf of 50 passengers to whom Ryanair refused to pay the EU261 compensation after the cancellations of 25/26 July. Hearings will be held at the Justice de paix of Charleroi and the Vredegerecht of Zaventem. These are the 50 first claimants, members of the association, on the list. Others will follow.
Test Achats/Aankoop has now opened more than 800 files of disgruntled passengers who are refused EU261 compensation by Ryanair. MOL said that he would not pay, unless ordered by a Court. I think that now he will have to open his wallet.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger »

DIBO wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 18:47
dutch court ruling wrote:1.8.De bezwaren van VNV tegen dergelijke aankondigingen zijn gegrond op de vrees dat Ryanair in dat geval stakingsbrekende acties kan ondernemen. Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden; meer in het bijzonder dat Ryanair, zoals zij al heeft aangeboden, vluchten ingeval van tijdig aangekondigde stakingen zal annuleren en dus niet piloten van elders zal inzetten. De voorzieningenrechter zal Ryanair aan deze toezegging houden bij het aan VNV op te leggen gebod om in het vervolg stakingen op een door de voorzieningenrechter redelijk geachte termijn van 72 uur aan te kondigen, opdat Ryanair tijdig haar passagiers kan waarschuwen. Met deze maatregel hoopt de voorzieningenrechter een maatregel op te leggen die recht doet aan de wederzijdse belangen van partijen
So just after this ruling, Ryanair is breaking it's commitment to the court "not to break the strike by calling in pilots from elsewhere, if the 72h strike pre-announcement period is respected". Today's strike was announced more than 72h beforehand, yet they called in 'foreign' pilots to break this strike
No: see 2.1.: the above clause is only for forthcoming strikes, ànd on condition that VNV announces strikes with at least 72 hours notice. Which wasn't done for today's strike.

I'm pretty sure that Ryanair will go into appeal against the above clause. It's not because trade unions don't like it that employers try to "break" a strike, that a judge can rule as such. Against the legal right to strike, there is also the legal freedom of enterprise and the legal right to work (for non-strikers).

DIBO
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by DIBO »

sn26567 wrote: 06 Aug 2018, 15:12A conciliation meeting at Ryanair offices this morning didn't result in an agreement. Therefore the strike of 10 August will go on, according to union sources.
looks like more than 72h in advance, to me.
dutch court ruling wrote:1.8.... Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden
even in court, Lyanair stated that even for today's strike, no 'strike-breaking' action would be taken.
Yeah right :roll:

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger »

You can't blame Ryanair for not respecting, on 6th August, a court verdict that is issued 3 days later. The decision to relocate pilots to Eindhoven and Amsterdam was taken before the court verdict.

If you read the verdict as a whole, it's clear that Ryanair's lawyers didn't prepare their thing decently. Perhaps a reflection of O'Leary's arrogance and overconfidence?

1. The legal ground to forbit or limit a strike is set in Article G of the European Social Manifesto. I haven't read that, but the Judge has done if for me. In brief: "...Dat is slechts het geval indien de beperkingen aan het recht op collectieve acties maatschappelijk gezien dringend noodzakelijk zijn..." Ryanair fails to proof this, the Judge said, by not going to court in other countries were strikes with more impact were announced: "...Het gaat om een 24-uursstaking die samenvalt met stakingen elders in Europa, die een veel grotere impact hebben dan de onderhavige staking en waartegen door Ryanair niet wordt opgetreden..."

2. Ryanair also failed to proof that a strike during the weekend has more severe consequences then a strike on a week day: "...Daarnaast heeft Ryanair niet inzichtelijk weten te maken waarom een staking in het weekend tot grotere schade zou leiden dan een stakingsactie op doordeweekse dagen en waarom dus specifiek een staking in de weekenden moet worden verboden. In de tussen partijen gevoerde correspondentie is door Ryanair pas op het allerlaatste moment onderscheid gemaakt tussen stakingen in het weekend en doordeweeks..."

- - -

I dislike the judgement. Not because the trade unions have "won", but because once again the passengers' rights are ignored. But then: when no one brings passengers rights up, a judge can't rule as such in a non in-depth court case.

DIBO
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by DIBO »

Passenger wrote: 11 Aug 2018, 18:52 You can't blame Ryanair for not respecting, on 6th August, a court verdict that is issued 3 days later. The decision to relocate pilots to Eindhoven and Amsterdam was taken before the court verdict.
Quite right, these decisions were taken beforehand.
dutch court ruling wrote:1.8.... Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden
but dispite the pledges made before a court of law by Lyanair on the 9th !!! of August, strike-breaking actions on the 10th were taken.
Lyanair should be held in contempt of the court.

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger »

First mistake from Ryanair's lawyers: when the judge said it was strange that Ryanair went only to court in the Netherlands, they had no explanation for that. Not even a lazy excuse. So it's quite obvious that the Dutch judge was pissed off: Ryanair suggested that the Dutch judge would rule against the strike anyway.

The second mistake is that Ryanair's lawyers used the wrong arguments: "going a strike on a weekend causes more damage then a strike on a weekday". One could try to defend this in a pub on a Saturday night. But in court?

The third mistake is that Ryanair's lawyers were badly prepared. When the judge said that the strike can only be limited according to Article G from the European Social Charter, they had no reply. The Dutch Judge said he can only prohibit or limit a strike when this is "maatschappelijk gezien dringend noodzakelijk". The judge referred to Article G, which is this:
1. The rights and principles set forth in Part I when effectively realised, and their effective exercise as provided for in Part II, shall not be subject to European Social Charter any restrictions or limitations not specified in those parts, except such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others or for the protection of public interest, national security, public health, or morals.
2. The restrictions permitted under this Charter to the rights and obligations set forth herein shall not be applied for any purpose other than that for which they have been prescribed.
There was one argument that Ryanair's lawyers should have used there: public interest: the right of passengers to be flown to their destination. There is even specified European legislation for this right.

The fourth and biggest mistake from Ryanair's lawyers is that they accepted the trade unions' statement about the so called "stakingsbrekende acties". From the verdict: "...De bezwaren van VNV tegen dergelijke aankondigingen zijn gegrond op de vrees dat Ryanair in dat geval stakingsbrekende acties kan ondernemen. Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden; meer in het bijzonder dat Ryanair, zoals zij al heeft aangeboden, vluchten ingeval van tijdig aangekondigde stakingen zal annuleren en dus niet piloten van elders zal inzetten..."

The above is a very subjective statement from a judge. To amend rosters and to use crew from outside is not "braking the strike": that is limit the damage. To use crew from outside is to make it possible that that those who are not on strike, can do their job. Actually, it's even allowed in the European Social Charter: "to the protection of the rights and freedoms ot others".

People have the right to strike, but people who don't want to strike have the right to work.

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger »

Consumer organization Test-Aankoop/Test-Achats today launched their court case for 50 test cases:

NL:
https://www.test-aankoop.be/action/pers ... otdossiers
FR:
https://www.test-achats.be/action/espac ... otdossiers

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger »

Another Dutch court verdict against Ryanair: with the ongoing "CAO" collective negociations, Dutch trade union VNV has the right to appoint the representatives they want, even when they are KLM crew:

https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzie ... :2018:7350

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sn26567
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sn26567 »

When Ryanair tries, wrongly, to accuse Brussels Airlines to justify its refusal to compensate

Ryanair still refuses to compensate passengers for cancelled flights following the July 25-26 and August 10 strikes.

1350 people whose flights were cancelled by Ryanair after the summer strikes registered their complaint with the consumer association Test-Achats/Aankoop (TA), which on Friday introduced the first 50 cases before the lower courts in Zaventem and Charleroi.

The consumer association is confident about the outcome and hopes to get the Irish company to reverse its position.

Yes, Ryanair is still refusing to compensate passengers for flights cancelled following the July 25 and 26 and August 10 strikes (a fixed compensation in case of cancellation less than fourteen days before departure, in addition to the reimbursement of the ticket or an alternative proposal).

In a statement sent on Monday, the company invokes exceptional circumstances and considers that "under EU261 law, no compensation is payable to customers when the delay/cancellation is beyond the control of the airline. If these strikes would have been under the control of Ryanair, there would have been no cancellations."

But the low-cost company goes further and tries to show in its statement that it is not the only one to react as follows: "TA should explain why Brussels Airlines was not required to pay EU261 compensation after the strike of its pilots in May 2018, and why TA did not take any legal action against Brussels Airlines. In the same way, in Germany, Lufthansa was not obliged to pay indemnities EU261 for the 17 days of strikes by its pilots and crew members, and we note that TA has not started any action with the Belgian courts against Lufthansa."

Except that ... it's wrong. While it is true that TA did not take action against Brussels Airlines, it is simply because they have fulfilled their obligations.

"When it's a partner company that goes on strike, that's not our responsibility, but when it's our staff who goes on strike, we pay these indemnities, which has cost us a lot," says Wencke Lemmes-Pireaux, spokeswoman for Brussels Airlines, "a total of 10 million for all the days of the strike, which includes compensation but also refunds of tickets or alternative flights on other airlines".

The spokesperson of Brussels Airlines acknowledges however that the agreement on these compensations is recent. The legislation on the subject has changed since April 2018 and the publication of a judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union, whose conclusion is very clear: "A wildcat strike of aircrew following the surprise announcement of a restructuration does not constitute an "extraordinary circumstance" allowing the airline to be released from its obligation of compensation in the event of cancellation or long delay of a flight".

The court ruled on the case of the German airline TUIfly, where a restructuring of the company was announced by surprise to its staff on September 30, 2016, because of a restructuring of the company. An announcement that angered employees, aircrew deciding to go on sick leave between October 1 and October 10, 2016. The rate of absent pilots had reached 62% and the strike had caused many delays and cancellations. Believing that these were "extraordinary circumstances", TUIfly had, like Ryanair, refused to pay passengers their legal allowances. But the European judges had considered that restructuring and reorganization "are part of the normal business management measures" and that "the airlines can be, in an normal way, confronted, in the exercise of their activity, with disagreements, conflicts, with the members of their staff or with some of them."

As for Lufthansa, TA did not bring an action in court simply because the association had not received enough complaints about that (the strike concerned mainly Germany). That said, if it is true that they were also reluctant to pay these allowances, the company will also have to change its tune: on July 18, 2018, given this new jurisprudence, the company, whose pilots had gone on strike in 2016 was sentenced by the Luxembourg court to pay compensation to two passengers who had requested it. In short, TA is confident about the outcome of the first cases against the Irish company and "Ryanair will be approached again so that it revises its position. In case of persistent refusal, other cases will be brought to justice so that every passenger is compensated ".

(after Belga and RTBF)
André
ex Sabena #26567

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