Air Belgium in 2018

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 37695
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

ttubbie wrote: 01 May 2018, 09:49 Over and out for Air Belgium.
Niky Terzakis and his team are very resilient: they will overcome these problems!
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
Posts: 6937
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote: 01 May 2018, 16:49
sn26567 wrote: 30 Apr 2018, 19:01 Russian press agency Ria Novosti (Sputnik) is not very optimistic about the future of Air Belgium. Its title tells it all:
"New Belgian Airline Going Belly-Up Without Flights Permission Over Russia"
The sanctions against Russia are considered as the main reason for not granting overflight rights.
Sputnik also mentions as problems the too short runway in CRL and the under-capitalisation of the company.
https://sputniknews.com/europe/20180430 ... on-russia/
Sputnik, like Russia Today, reflects "his master's voice", the Kremlin. This article in Forbes tells a lot about the disinformation that Russian authorities can instil in the world:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinrive ... ium-delay/
Some excerpts: Given Sputnik’s track-record for falsifying stories, its report about Air Belgium may simply be an opportunistic taunt devoid of factual basis... Whatever the true circumstances, Moscow has used overflight rights as a political and commercial bargaining chip in the past.
What a poor article from Forbes. Or wait: it's not a Forbes article: it's the author's own opinion: "...The author is a Forbes contributor. The opinions expressed are those of the writer..."

Repeat: what a poor article: "...Air Belgium has provided no clues as to the underlying cause of the debacle – beyond confirming that it has been unable to secure Russian flying rights “despite all efforts of our teams and the Belgian authorities”.
Well, if the airlines hasn't provided the cause, a good journalist would have digged into it. When has Air Belgium asked Russia for the permit: in February 2016 or in March 2018? Has it been refused because the file was uncomplete, or not granted yet? Has Russia already commented on the request?

A good journalist would also have digged into those cancellations from April: wat was the load factor for the flights that have been cancelled? How many people had to be rebooked: 20 or 5.000?

And what about the other reason that the airline has mentionned for the delay = the GDS failure? Why hasn't he mentionned it? Because it's useless for his anti-Russia statements? What's the update on those negociations? Which GDS will it be?

Re-repeat: what a poor article: "...Whatever the true circumstances..."
So this guy doesn't know what the truth is, but still he accuses Sputnik from lying?

sean1982
Posts: 3273
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

At least one person here is keen for this project to fail

Passenger
Posts: 6937
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote: 01 May 2018, 19:15 At least one person here is keen for this project to fail
There are a lot of people here who doubt that they will succeed, simply by observing what they're doing.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 37695
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

And there are a lot of people who know them and believe in them.
André
ex Sabena #26567

convair
Posts: 1812
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by convair »

I really wish them well, but after so many hiccups, it will be difficult for them to survive.
The Russia permit seems essential; if they don't get it soon (i.e. before the summer), I"m afraid they'll be done as the Chinese partner will call it quits. :(
In that case, the only possibility for Terzakis and Co will be to completely re-orient their strategy.

Acid-drop
Posts: 2792
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Acid-drop »

Ethiopian cargo flies everday to china from LGG without using russian airspace... yeah they lose 1h and a few pints of fuel but...
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

ttubbie
Posts: 25
Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 00:00

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by ttubbie »

I am not keen on seeing them fail, on the contrary, but I am basing myself on the facts so far. There is a difference between knowing and believing in someone and the harsh reality of having to make money. IF they succeed, I will be the first to admit I was wrong. At this stage it does not look good, that is all I am saying. Many here take their wishes for granted.

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 3085
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Declare war to Russia because a Belgian startup airline obviously underestimated the paperwork that had to be done?
If it were only this Belgian start-up I would entirely agree. But didn't I understand the Russian bear is playing the same game with other airlines, too? Several of them being European? If so, it is indeed time for Europe to answer, and the football thingy is a weak spot presently. Alas, I am afraid "Europe" will not have the guts to do something substantial, they are so busy regulating the power of household aspirators and the size and labelling of jam jars :mrgreen:

Poiu
Posts: 855
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Poiu »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 02 May 2018, 09:29
Declare war to Russia because a Belgian startup airline obviously underestimated the paperwork that had to be done?
If it were only this Belgian start-up I would entirely agree. But didn't I understand the Russian bear is playing the same game with other airlines, too? Several of them being European? If so, it is indeed time for Europe to answer, and the football thingy is a weak spot presently. Alas, I am afraid "Europe" will not have the guts to do something substantial, they are so busy regulating the power of household aspirators and the size and labelling of jam jars :mrgreen:
What Jan said! Clear, polite and to the point, as always.

Passenger
Posts: 6937
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 02 May 2018, 09:29
Passenger wrote: 30 Apr 2018, 23:09
Poiu wrote: 30 Apr 2018, 21:52 Time the EU steps in, me thinks. No new routes for Russian carriers through EU airspace, no traffic rights for football charters to the worldcup this Summer.
Declare war to Russia because a Belgian startup airline obviously underestimated the paperwork that had to be done?
If it were only this Belgian start-up I would entirely agree. But didn't I understand the Russian bear is playing the same game with other airlines, too? Several of them being European? If so, it is indeed time for Europe to answer, and the football thingy is a weak spot presently. Alas, I am afraid "Europe" will not have the guts to do something substantial, they are so busy regulating the power of household aspirators and the size and labelling of jam jars
And what are those other European airlines that "the Russian bear" is playing with? Please name them. Norwegian perhaps? Yes, they had to wait very long, but they have received it.

The only thing Russia does, is to react reciprocal to European sanctions (wederkerig/réciproque). Example: "you kick a Russian cargo airline out of Amsterdam? We keep our airspace closed for the leading Dutch airline".

The permit for Air Belgium is also such reciprocal measure: "you insult us of a murder attempt by kicking a Russian diplomat out of Belgium? Well, your new Belgian airline will have to wait for their permit".

Are our politicians never going to learn that lesson? Last year, they did the same with Kabila, with Alexander Decroo behaving as that elephant in that porcelain shop. Result: Kabila reduced traffic rights for Brussels Airlines.

User avatar
lumumba
Posts: 1813
Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by lumumba »

And here we go again is De Croo really going like an elephant in porcelain shop!
For Russia I'm not sure this is the reason but anyway maybe you start to work with our diplomatic team because you aware of how it works....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 3085
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

@Passenger: I was referring to a post by yourself - but upon rereading I must admit it mentions US carriers, and cargo carriers at that. That said: to my understanding too, the Bear is simply seeking revenge. But hadn't they already answered the dismissal of a Russian diplomat from Brussels by dismissing Belgian diplomatic staff from Moscow? That would be inline with the established "rules" and traditions of diplomacy. But has Belgium hindered their civil aviation in any way?

If Air Belgium are really the only European airline struggling with this issue then I must agree it looks like they didn't do their homework properly.

Also, I quite agree that some our politicians could do worse things than take a training in "delicacy and subtlety, especially in international politics". OTOH we should not place Moscow and Kinshasa in the same category - but no further into politics than that.

Passenger
Posts: 6937
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

ttubbie wrote: 02 May 2018, 09:03 I am not keen on seeing them fail, on the contrary, but I am basing myself on the facts so far. There is a difference between knowing and believing in someone and the harsh reality of having to make money. IF they succeed, I will be the first to admit I was wrong. At this stage it does not look good, that is all I am saying. Many here take their wishes for granted.
convair wrote: 01 May 2018, 21:02 I really wish them well, but after so many hiccups, it will be difficult for them to survive.
The Russia permit seems essential; if they don't get it soon (i.e. before the summer), I"m afraid they'll be done as the Chinese partner will call it quits. :(
In that case, the only possibility for Terzakis and Co will be to completely re-orient their strategy.
This is what we need indeed: realism in stead of optimism.

I work in the travel & tourism business, and therefore I support (fair) competition between airlines. When Air Belgium succeeds, they are going to be a competitor for Cathay, Hainan and others. And more competition means cheaper prices.

I don't think that anyone here wants to see them fail. I don't, ttubbie doesn't, convair doesn't. But like JustPlanes has said a few days ago: Air Belgium is now doing exactly the same that caused the failure of VG Airlines 15 years ago: too little time between "start sale" and "first flight". That is not even an opinion: this is a fact that everyone involved with ticket sales knows. For long haul, the majority of people book 3-6 months in advance. Not 1 month. Hence my advise, somewhere in March: "plan your first flight in September, and do charters and backups for other airlines in between".

Sai
Posts: 199
Joined: 31 Mar 2012, 22:35

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Sai »

While waiting on that permit they could maybe focus on one hand on ACMI flights during the busy summer season.
On the other hand temporarily move to BRU to take advantage of the longer runway. So they can make use of the full cargo capacity and try to make profit on that as it often an equally or on some destinations a more significant part of the revenue on long haul passenger flights.

Bracebrace
Posts: 243
Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Bracebrace »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 02 May 2018, 11:00 If Air Belgium are really the only European airline struggling with this issue then I must agree it looks like they didn't do their homework properly.
It is not the only airline. On a political level, we are close to trade wars. Never forget that.

Sai
Posts: 199
Joined: 31 Mar 2012, 22:35

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Sai »

Sai wrote: 02 May 2018, 13:16 While waiting on that permit they could maybe focus on one hand on ACMI flights during the busy summer season.
On the other hand temporarily move to BRU to take advantage of the longer runway. So they can make use of the full cargo capacity and try to make profit on that as it often is an equally or on some destinations a more significant part of the revenue on long haul passenger flights.

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 3085
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Bracebrace wrote: 02 May 2018, 17:32It is not the only airline.
Thank you. But I concur with @Passenger: who then are (some of) the others?

User avatar
Ozzie1969
Posts: 732
Joined: 03 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Brugge, Flanders + Annan, Scotland + Ormoc,Philippines
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Ozzie1969 »

lumumba wrote: 02 May 2018, 10:58 And here we go again is De Croo really going like an elephant in porcelain shop!
I'm not an expert on zoology, but I do know that the correct saying is 'a bull in a china shop'. No elephant to be seen here. :)

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 3085
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

:) that was a very (perhaps all too) literal conversion from our local Dutch... The intended meaning was beyond doubt, though.

Post Reply