Brussels Airlines in 2018

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

sean1982 wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 15:19 and (re-)employ people on inferior belgian contracts (in comparison to their old german one).
They have German SN contracts and as far as I know nobody was forced to sign them.
And inferior? Well yeah, as most of them were previously contracted by an airline paying them too much and being unable to solve this issue which highly contributed to their bankruptcy.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

RoMax wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 15:24
sean1982 wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 15:19 and (re-)employ people on inferior belgian contracts (in comparison to their old german one).
They have German SN contracts and as far as I know nobody was forced to sign them.
And inferior? Well yeah, as most of them were previously contracted by an airline paying them too much and being unable to solve this issue which highly contributed to their bankruptcy.
Nobody forces to sign indeed, however the direct entry pilot market for 330/340 pilots in Europe is small enough for it to be a knife on the throat. No need to sugarcoat it Romax. If they’d tried the same with LH crew, Germany would come to a standstill

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

I'm not sugercoating it Sean, but calling it 'social dumping at its best' is just crazy.

It makes perfect sense for EW to keep their own operations 'clean' by only having short/medium haul operations under their own AOC('s) and rather make use of another fully owned subsidiary of the group which is also being integrated in the Eurowings Group which already has fully integrated long haul operations. Except being hired, trained and contracted by SN they work under German contracts and subject to German labour law without trying to dodge it (cannot be said about certain other companies in Europe having bases beyond the country where they are registered).

Why do you think other groups with LCC subsidiaries also try to keep their (LCC) long haul operations under separate subsidiaries - whether or not operating under the same brand.

Union conflicts in Germany are in the first place related to the fact that LH Group is trying to move towards a situation that eventually all short and medium haul operations will be under the Eurowings banner (even though that's not yet fully admitted).

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

Interview of Alain Vanalderweireldt, Chairman of BeCA (Belgian Cockpit Association), captain at DHL (a German company), about the future of Brussels Airlines: "When the decision centres are in Germany or in France, the sandwich rarely falls on the side of small countries". He thinks that the Brussels hub is endangered, despite the good health of African routes.
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convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

Homo Aeroportus wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 13:14 Pax bound to JFK and YYZ could probably be taken care of by other airlines.
No doubt about that, but it's sad to see SN becoming a virtual airline on TAtl routes.

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

travellover wrote: 31 Mar 2018, 09:23 On the other hand, Bernard Gustin, for instance, said in an interview last December about the addition of the Saturday flight on BOM last winter, that the more frequencies there are for BOM and l/h network generally, the better it is.
I would tend to agree with that. A daily flight helps create an automatism with pax to choose an airline without having to wonder or double-check wether the flight they want is available on the days they need to travel; and if either their outbound or inbound flight is unavailable on the days they need them, they will tend to choose an alternate airline for the whole trip. You won't leave your car in BRU if you return through CDG.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

RoMax wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 16:53 I'm not sugercoating it Sean, but calling it 'social dumping at its best' is just crazy.

It makes perfect sense for EW to keep their own operations 'clean' by only having short/medium haul operations under their own AOC('s) and rather make use of another fully owned subsidiary of the group which is also being integrated in the Eurowings Group which already has fully integrated long haul operations.

Why do you think other groups with LCC subsidiaries also try to keep their (LCC) long haul operations under separate subsidiaries - whether or not operating under the same brand.
RoMax, do you know the T&Cs for pilots in Europe? If yes, you do know the ones at EW are borderline insulting don’t you? Why do you think EW is struggling to recruit former Air Berlin pilots whilst Ryanair and easyJet are flooded with applications? If you don’t know the T&Cs, please don’t pretend you do.
EW can’t put the A340s on their own AOC without paying descent salaries according agreements with LH unions, that is the only reason SN operates the A340s.
Joon and Level are indeed constructions to employ crew on lower salaries just as SN for EW. For the same reason Alain Vanal fears that in the future SN crew will be forced to work for EW on lower TCs.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

convair wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 19:48
Homo Aeroportus wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 13:14 Pax bound to JFK and YYZ could probably be taken care of by other airlines.
No doubt about that, but it's sad to see SN becoming a virtual airline on TAtl routes.
Let's not exaggerate either, the OTP is definitely not great and should be improved (nobody is denying that), but it's not like flying SN gives you an exponentially higher chance of having your flight cancelled.

Just some basic statistics from Flightstats for the latest available reference period (15Jan - 15Mar):
SN501: 0 cancelled, 1 diverted, 56% on time
SN502: 1 cancelled (2%), 74% on time

SN551: 2 cancelled (5%), 61% on time
SN552: 2 cancelled (5%), 84% on time

Some comparison from BRU:
DL43: 0 cancelled, 63% on time
DL42: 0 cancelled, 68% on time

UA998: 0 cancelled, 89% on time
UA999: 0 cancelled, 66% on time

AC833: 0 cancelled, 58% on time
AC832: 0 cancelled, 67% on time

UA951: 0 cancelled, 74% on time
UA950: 0 cancelled, 73% on time

So yes the amount of cancellations is clearly higher and the on time performance out of BRU is bad, but it's not that much out of the ordinary either when comparing with other BRU TATL flights. Ok I admit this is just a few months, but it still gives an idea.

The fleet is being renewed and in the meantime this summer there will be more back-up capacity thanks to OO-SFC. That doesn't mean the work is done, but at least its ongoing.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

Poiu wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 20:38 RoMax, do you know the T&Cs for pilots in Europe? If yes, you do know the ones at EW are borderline insulting don’t you? Why do you think EW is struggling to recruit former Air Berlin pilots whilst Ryanair and easyJet are flooded with applications? If you don’t know the T&Cs, please don’t pretend you do.
EW can’t put the A340s on their own AOC without paying descent salaries according agreements with LH unions, that is the only reason SN operates the A340s.
As far as I know you're not saying anything which doesn't correspond to what I say. EW wants to keep its own internal ops/costs 'clean' by not having long haul ops on their own AOC's. Complexity and much higher labour costs as number 1 reasons. Besides, EW has enough ways to go around the LH collective work agreements. Eurowings Europe for example is not part of it and is already used to expand in Germany outside of the 'mainline EW'.
Poiu wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 20:38 Joon and Level are indeed constructions to employ crew on lower salaries just as SN for EW.
Joon is a bad example, their pilots work under the same contracts as when they worked directly for AF. Just the cabin crew earns 25% less. Another reason why I see Joon failing rather sooner than later.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

nordikcam wrote: 31 Mar 2018, 14:26 I obviously do not have official statistics ... but I have mine! In 2017 : 3 YYZ with SN of which 2 cancelled.
1 with AC and 1 with LH who were operated on. 6 with AF / KL that were operated too. If the grass is not greener, there is grass!
6 with AF/KL that were operated too? When they are not on strike: 5 days of strike in the current 15 days period. Very reliable indeed! I think that the grass has burned...
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nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam »

sn26567 wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 22:52
nordikcam wrote: 31 Mar 2018, 14:26 I obviously do not have official statistics ... but I have mine! In 2017 : 3 YYZ with SN of which 2 cancelled.
1 with AC and 1 with LH who were operated on. 6 with AF / KL that were operated too. If the grass is not greener, there is grass!
6 with AF/KL that were operated too? When they are not on strike: 5 days of strike in the current 15 days period. Very reliable indeed! I think that the grass has burned...
I see the strike problem with AF actually ...but in 2017 ( and I spoke about last year ) : no problem !
... and we have to compare comparable things! We can not compare strawberries and slippers or a company on strike with a company that is not. ;)

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by lumumba »

RoMax wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 20:39
convair wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 19:48
Homo Aeroportus wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 13:14 Pax bound to JFK and YYZ could probably be taken care of by other airlines.
No doubt about that, but it's sad to see SN becoming a virtual airline on TAtl routes.
Let's not exaggerate either, the OTP is definitely not great and should be improved (nobody is denying that), but it's not like flying SN gives you an exponentially higher chance of having your flight cancelled.

Just some basic statistics from Flightstats for the latest available reference period (15Jan - 15Mar):
SN501: 0 cancelled, 1 diverted, 56% on time
SN502: 1 cancelled (2%), 74% on time

SN551: 2 cancelled (5%), 61% on time
SN552: 2 cancelled (5%), 84% on time

Some comparison from BRU:
DL43: 0 cancelled, 63% on time
DL42: 0 cancelled, 68% on time

UA998: 0 cancelled, 89% on time
UA999: 0 cancelled, 66% on time

AC833: 0 cancelled, 58% on time
AC832: 0 cancelled, 67% on time

UA951: 0 cancelled, 74% on time
UA950: 0 cancelled, 73% on time

So yes the amount of cancellations is clearly higher and the on time performance out of BRU is bad, but it's not that much out of the ordinary either when comparing with other BRU TATL flights. Ok I admit this is just a few months, but it still gives an idea.

The fleet is being renewed and in the meantime this summer there will be more back-up capacity thanks to OO-SFC. That doesn't mean the work is done, but at least its ongoing.
This numbers looks bad to me ....And this is the reality.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

lumumba wrote: 02 Apr 2018, 00:31 This numbers looks bad to me ....And this is the reality.
Except the cancellations, the on time performance is not quite worse than e.g. DL on JFK (except ex-BRU which is a little better for DL) and on YYZ it's beter than AC on YUL.

Of course this is a simplistic comparison, but that seems to be the standard here anyway.

When it comes to the cancellations, well I'm not even going to try anymore. Well first we should know the reason, it doesn't necessarily mean it was an AOG. Besides that, yes the % of cancellations at SN is probably a bit higher than many other larger competitors (it has always been like that) for a number of reasons, the aged long haul fleet is just part of it. Again, nobody is denying that it's about time that they'll be replaced soon. But it's unnecessary to claim here that it's standard practice at SN to have 1-2 cancelled long haul flights/day.

Even on YYZ, which seems to be the worst, it's 'just' 5% of the flights in the mentioned period. Obviously that's at least 4% too much, but it's not the drama that some are making of it here. Especially not for an airline with the fleet size of SN, having very little back-up capacity in the widebody fleet as that's way too expensive for such a small fleet.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter »

RoMax wrote: 02 Apr 2018, 01:17Except the cancellations, the on time performance is not quite worse than e.g. DL on JFK (except ex-BRU which is a little better for DL) and on YYZ it's beter than AC on YUL.
That begs the question whether something is seriously wrong at BRU. SN's on time performance is already way below the European average, and if other l/h carriers do even worse that's remarkable. Is that a coincidence or does operating at BRU impede on time performance?

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by JustPlanes »

One thing to keep in mind... the weather and delays here in the Northeast US have been pretty bad in the last couple of months with many delays, diversions and cancellations... We had 4 major Noreasters in 2 weeks which I've never seen before... once those hit forget about it... and airlines like UA/DL live from connections at JFK and EWR so flights are rarely on time...

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam »

RoMax wrote: 02 Apr 2018, 01:17
lumumba wrote: 02 Apr 2018, 00:31 This numbers looks bad to me ....And this is the reality.
Except the cancellations, the on time performance is not quite worse than e.g. DL on JFK (except ex-BRU which is a little better for DL) and on YYZ it's beter than AC on YUL.

Of course this is a simplistic comparison, but that seems to be the standard here anyway.

When it comes to the cancellations, well I'm not even going to try anymore. Well first we should know the reason, it doesn't necessarily mean it was an AOG. Besides that, yes the % of cancellations at SN is probably a bit higher than many other larger competitors (it has always been like that) for a number of reasons, the aged long haul fleet is just part of it. Again, nobody is denying that it's about time that they'll be replaced soon. But it's unnecessary to claim here that it's standard practice at SN to have 1-2 cancelled long haul flights/day.

Even on YYZ, which seems to be the worst, it's 'just' 5% of the flights in the mentioned period. Obviously that's at least 4% too much, but it's not the drama that some are making of it here. Especially not for an airline with the fleet size of SN, having very little back-up capacity in the widebody fleet as that's way too expensive for such a small fleet.
I therefore share this analysis and if I take it in detail I draw conclusions.
SN cancels more often than others, especially on YYZ, which seems to be the destination that works the worst, even if I do not make a drama of what is common in aviation. A commercial aviation exchange site remains a trading site for commercial aviation.
I continue, SN's long-haul fleet is too small for it to react otherwise than by canceling and it is unclear whether the delays on YYZ and JFK are due to SN or BRU. As a typical passenger flying 20 x 2 times a year on the North Atlantic (YYZ - YVR - LAX) I no longer have to take SN, which I do, and have to leave another airport, which I do (CDG -AMS) to avoid being sent to MUC or FRA to go back to the West and I have to fly with a long-haul company that has planes in reserve to assume the schedule of flights (AF / KL).
I have actually drawn the conclusions of SN's long haul, fly with them on Europe where the problem is not significant ... and enjoying Brussels airlines as I was able to appreciate the Sabena, I regret this situation and hope that Lufthansa will remedy this situation without longing for SN's long haul in Germany - I am afraid it will be - and leaving room for others to rush on the BRU tarmac! And I'm surprised, but it does not spoil my weekend, that SN can do without these few transatlantic annual paid by me or my company!

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

RoMax wrote: 01 Apr 2018, 20:39 Just some basic statistics from Flightstats for the latest available reference period (15Jan - 15Mar):
SN501: 0 cancelled, 1 diverted, 56% on time
SN502: 1 cancelled (2%), 74% on time

SN551: 2 cancelled (5%), 61% on time
SN552: 2 cancelled (5%), 84% on time

Some comparison from BRU:
DL43: 0 cancelled, 63% on time
DL42: 0 cancelled, 68% on time

UA998: 0 cancelled, 89% on time
UA999: 0 cancelled, 66% on time

AC833: 0 cancelled, 58% on time
AC832: 0 cancelled, 67% on time

UA951: 0 cancelled, 74% on time
UA950: 0 cancelled, 73% on time

So yes the amount of cancellations is clearly higher and the on time performance out of BRU is bad, but it's not that much out of the ordinary either when comparing with other BRU TATL flights. Ok I admit this is just a few months, but it still gives an idea.

The fleet is being renewed and in the meantime this summer there will be more back-up capacity thanks to OO-SFC. That doesn't mean the work is done, but at least its ongoing.
Sorry I can't be as positive as you are on this RoMax, but these stats are obviously wrong, at least for SN501.

Since I saw the NYC weather problems early January, I took some notes from mid-January, i.e. after the NYC weather episode:

From Jan 16 till Feb 6, SN501, which is supposed to be a daily flight, seems to have been de-programmed every Tuesday, i.e. 4 times, + cancellation on Feb 3.
Other cancellations/de-programming: Feb 21, March 2, March 7, March 21, April 1.

That makes a total of 10 within 10 weeks (14%!) for a supposedly daily flight. Awful! :(

Not to mention 10+ flights cancelled/postponed to Afi destinations. :(

As you seem to have good sources and maybe inside information, you can easily get confirmation of this.

Fortunately :mrgreen:, Kabila has reduced their frequency to FIH, allowing them to use their planes to other destinations! :mrgreen: ;)

The SN people are doing an excellent job, I'm sure, but they must be completely disouraged by the way LH is treating them and their company!

You (and H.A. I think) mentioned the cost of cancelling l/h flights. Today, SN is losing money on european feeder flights in order to bring pax to BRU or elsewhere for other companies who make (some) butter on l/h, simply because mother Lufty doesn't allow them to operate as a "normal" airline. And then, LH will tell them they are not profitable! Crazy isn't it?

SN should wet-lease both Air Belgium's 340s as of today. If not needed, they can replace the 2 or 3 SN frequencies to Malaga, or Barcelona or Las Palmas or Tenerife or Hurghada or Marsa Alam.. ;) .

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

convair wrote: 02 Apr 2018, 13:05 From Jan 16 till Feb 6, SN501, which is supposed to be a daily flight, seems to have been de-programmed every Tuesday, i.e. 4 times, + cancellation on Feb 3.
Other cancellations/de-programming: Feb 21, March 2, March 7, March 21, April 1.

That makes a total of 10 within 10 weeks (14%!) for a supposedly daily flight. Awful! :(
The winter schedule of JFK included from the very beginning a downgrade to 6/week from 15jan to 11feb and again in the week of 19feb to 25feb (no flight on Tuesday indeed). These flights have never been sold and as such are not to be considered as cancellations or de-programming at all!
The last 2 cancellations are not part of the latest available Flightstats reference period until 15/03 so indeed those were not included. But anyway, flightstats is a public tool provided by Flightglobal, doesn't mean it's 100% accurate, but it's definitely valuable.

For BRU-JFK from another source:
January: 28 planned, 26 operated
February: 26 planned, 25 operated
March (until the 29th): 29 planned, 26 operated

Definitely not great statistics, but not the disaster that some make of it, sorry.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Darjeeling »

One must wonder : what does OO-SFB do for Eurowings ??

SN is in desperate need of a proper "new" A330 with full cargo capacity, and this plane is sent to EW to send german tourists to Palma de Mallorca...

Why don't they (EW) take OO-SFM for this purpose ? It even has the same engines as the A330-200 they operate and just completed a full c-check in LH Malta.

Don't come and tell me that it's due to the Cathay cabin, I think SN customers will "undergo" the Cathay cabin with much pleasure. They will still prefer it compared to EuroAtlantic or Wamos...

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by crew1990 »

Darjeeling wrote: 02 Apr 2018, 14:26 One must wonder : what does OO-SFB do for Eurowings ??

SN is in desperate need of a proper "new" A330 with full cargo capacity, and this plane is sent to EW to send german tourists to Palma de Mallorca...
OO-SFB is not flying to PMI for the moment but it will fly indeed for Eurowings at a later stage to Miami and Fort Mayer.

The A340 is operating to PMI and VIE for training purpose of the cabin crew and pilots before the launch of the real operation (New York, Punta Cana and Cancun). Like Air France did with the A380 to LHR, the 787 to LHR and LYS, or the 777 of Swiss to VIE, TXL and HAJ. This is something common when operating a new aircraft in a fleet.
Darjeeling wrote: 02 Apr 2018, 14:26 Why don't they (EW) take OO-SFM for this purpose ? It even has the same engines as the A330-200 they operate and just completed a full c-check in LH Malta.

Don't come and tell me that it's due to the Cathay cabin, I think SN customers will "undergo" the Cathay cabin with much pleasure. They will still prefer it compared to EuroAtlantic or Wamos...
Because there is no need to send an A330 there as the Eurowings crews made their training flight out of BRU to Dakar/Banjul/Conacry and Douala/Yaounde rotations. They are already qualified for the A330
Last edited by crew1990 on 02 Apr 2018, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.

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