Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraft

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Boeing767copilot
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Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraft

Post by Boeing767copilot » 25 Jan 2012, 07:46

Norwegian (NAS) has today signed an agreement with both Airbus and Boeing for delivery of a total of 222 new aircraft. The order includes 122 aircraft from Boeing; 100 of the new Boeing 737 MAX8 and 22 Next-Generation 737-800. Norwegian will be the European launch customer for Boeing’s new aircraft. The Airbus order includes 100 Airbus A320neo. The total agreement is the largest ever in European aviation history and has a contract value at list prices of NOK 127 billion. The order includes additional purchase right of 150 aircraft from both manufacturers.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by cathay belgium » 25 Jan 2012, 08:53

Hi,

Will Norwegian be the next europe-wide Ryanair ?
Or what the hell will they do with all those aircraft ? Flying in and out to Scandinavia only is a bit too much no for +200 aircraft ? ( Ryanair has nearly 300 flying all over europe, interesting times so.. )
Can we expect some Belgian destination in the near future then ?
If so, BRU or CRL ? Guess BRU as the also fly in/out to AMS already, a main airport ..

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by BrightCedars » 25 Jan 2012, 09:48

Seems like they're planning some hub and spoke operation out of OSL. They have quite a few long-haul aircraft on order as well. They do hold a very good geographic position up there in OSL, close to America and close to Asia. I guess they are thinking of a plan to use cheaper Norwegian jet fuel to offer very competitive trips between those regions and the whole of Europe. Otherwise, the number does seem insane!

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by cathay belgium » 25 Jan 2012, 11:27

Hi,

So this is a real ' Ryanair - Intercontinental ' WAUW ..or AUCH ..
MoL won't be that happy today !
Will Norwegian got some same FR-discounts on their 737MAX ?
Does someone know how many new frames will FR get before the deal ended with Boeing and
on which number of frames will end up in the end ?
Should we expect a same order-announcement from FR in the near future now ?
Or is it really over?
Thinks Boeing can use some hughe order to match up with Airbus because the gap between them is getting really big and notonly on this continent ..

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Mirror
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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by Mirror » 25 Jan 2012, 11:49

Norwegian is indeed trying to catch up with Ryanair.
New bases will open, AGP will have a lot more Norwegians this summer already as a Norwegian Hub
Mirror

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by Acid-drop » 25 Jan 2012, 13:31

why half of boeing and half of airbus ?

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RoMax
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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by RoMax » 25 Jan 2012, 14:00

Acid-drop wrote:why half of boeing and half of airbus ?
Quite simple...with such a big fleet it doesn't make such a big difference to have two different types. And the big advantage of this is that Norwegian can get their aircraft much more faster than when they would have ordered 200 737's or 200 A320's.
And as the Boeing order is still very big (186 orders now, including the new order, 6 787's and previous ordered 737NG's, currently they have 48 738's in service) they do not have to transfer 737 trained staff to Airbus.
It simply depends on the airline what they prefer, if your fleet is big enough it strongly depends on the needs of the airline if one manufacturer or two is the most ideal solution. AA and AB for exemple have both (AA will have both at least), LionAir and Ryanair for exemple have Boeing only and IndiGo and AirAsia for exemple only Airbus.

btw, the order for 122 Boeing's is firm, the order for 100 A320neo's is a MoU, so not yet a firm order.

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by bollox » 25 Jan 2012, 16:22

HTF is Boeing going to build the Max on time? After the debacle of the 787 they have to totally change their manufacturing procedures.
I have read that nearly every 787 needs reworking before delivery. Why? Were the manufacturing standards/specifications by Boeing and their subcontractors so bad?
Not that Airbus is much better with their 380....................We will see with the 350 too!
Personally, I feel the delivery times on these (very) new generation twin-aisles are pure science fiction. New engines and pylons promise even more chaos and delay.
Boeing and Airbus gurus please clear the airways for me

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by Flanker » 25 Jan 2012, 16:47

HTF is Boeing going to build the Max on time? After the debacle of the 787 they have to totally change their manufacturing procedures.
It's unlikely that the NEO would miss its EIS target.
The PW1000G platform is already predictable and the redesign is very very limited compared to a whole new aircraft development.

The Max is scheduled for EIS in 2017. That's 5 years from now.
It will all depend on how well the Leap-X does in testing.
I have my reservations about it achieving much of an improvement as the leap-x's advantage is gained through a narrower core making a larger fan turn. On the B737 however, the fan can only be enlarged by 15cm in diameter. Most will thus depend on how narrow they can make the core, while keeping its ability to make the slightly larger fan receive the same shaft-power. Most of the Leap-X's advantage will thus depend on the design improvements in the core and the materials used to cater for the higher pressure ratio required.


As to Norwegian's order, there's a large question mark.
As Cathaybelgium notes, the market in Scandinavia isn't large enough for such a huge operation.
Moreover, Norwegian may have ambitions to grow into continental Europe with hubs but they'll encounter strong resistance with Ryanair and co. The market isn't large enough for three large competitors.

The only way such a Norwegian strategy can work is if they can offer legacy carrier class service with a low cost structure to take-over legacy carriers operations out of the major airports.
For instance, if they come to BRU with 30 A320 NEO's, they can easily crush SN and take-over the BRU market and some of the LCC market from EIN and CRL to develop a succesful hub.

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by RoMax » 25 Jan 2012, 16:58

Boeing has an EIS of 2017 for the 737MAX, this is far from optimistic. Compared to the 787 and 748 program they build in a much bigger time buffer while the development will be much easier. Boeing said they may even deliver earlier than 2017. When making up their timeline for the 737MAX they prefered of building in too much time and deliver too early than to have pay billions of claims by angry customers once again (they said "better deliver early than to deliver late", but you can read that as "it would cost us too much" :P ). But indeed a lot will also depend on the Leap-x development, but I don't see this as a problem yet. The Leap-x will already have flown (in other versions tough) on the COMAC C919 and even the A320neo by that time I think.
I hope Airbus did the same with the A320neo, and I think they did, they also learned their lessons from the A380 and the A350 (which is running on the edge of too late and just on time, depending on the variant).

For the 787 (altough this is not the right topic for that...), Boeing prefered to not delay FAL (final assembly line) and to do rework after FAL. Many parts are/were not up to production standard when they arrived from the subcontractors (like Alenia being the biggest problem, that's why Boeing will insource a part of the production and design for the 787-9 which was planned for Alenia). But also things that were discovered during testing have to be reworked after FAL, partly because the changes were made after the particular aircraft left FAL and partly because they didn't want to delay FAL.
Airbus decided to delay FAL of the A350 in order to build the aircraft anyway and to rework after FAL. But they are not yet in (flight) testing, so they can do this. But once the design changes which come out of testing come in it is difficult to just delay FAL. That would probably result in a delayed FAL and still rework after FAL.

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by bollox » 25 Jan 2012, 17:53

Sorry, should have said single-aisle ipo twin-aisle :oops: .
Interesting points on core of core of 737MAX engines. Would a more forward protuding engine-mount help?
Will the MAx's be made in Seattle or the new factory down south? With Presidential elections on the near horizon, there will be a lotta wow-power on the manufacturing base. I remember Seattle being closed down months by Unions (not the case now for Charleston), but the workers of Seattle would not take a change kindly. Could this cause more delays?
I wish Boeing good luck :D Had my best European rides in 800 and 900s............

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RoMax
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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by RoMax » 25 Jan 2012, 18:15

bollox wrote: Will the MAx's be made in Seattle or the new factory down south? With Presidential elections on the near horizon, there will be a lotta wow-power on the manufacturing base. I remember Seattle being closed down months by Unions (not the case now for Charleston), but the workers of Seattle would not take a change kindly. Could this cause more delays?
I wish Boeing good luck :D Had my best European rides in 800 and 900s............
The 737 is not build in Seattle, it is build in Renton (just as Seattle in the state Washington). There are currently two 737 production lines (both capable of 21 737/month, they will reach that level in the first half of 2014).
At the time Boeing launched the MAX they said they could move the production to Charleston and possibly even another place. But later in 2011, Boeing closed an agreement with the biggest union that represents the Boeing workers. The deal was that Boeing would guarantee 737 production in Renton and in place that union (forgot the name) would drop their complaint against the 787 production plant of Boeing in Charleston (where the unions have no power). So now Boeing has made a good deal, 737MAX production will be in Renton and the charges against the Charleston production plant are dropped.
On a side note, Boeing said they may make a 3rd 737 production line in Renton (in the building of the current lines, by shifting some things) that will be used for the 737MAX. This line will also be capable of 21 737's/month. Eventually the other two lines will transfer from 737NG to 737MAX. With this, Boeing can launch MAX production without having to take place on the current two production lines which will be running at full capacity by half 2014. And this gives Boeing the possibilty to increase 737 production even more (and this may be needed, just as Airbus is evaluating more production increase for the A320), up to 63/month and to build the 737NG and MAX next to eachother for a certain period.

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by bollox » 25 Jan 2012, 18:32

Mr. B.
Thanks for quick and informative reply.

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by azingrew » 25 Jan 2012, 20:59

incidentely, where are the A320 build these days? I seem to remember that all A319 and 321 were build in Hamburg and the 320 in TLS and China. Is that still the case? Read about a delivery of an A320 in Hamburg recently.

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by Flanker » 25 Jan 2012, 21:55

bollox wrote:Interesting points on core of core of 737MAX engines. Would a more forward protuding engine-mount help?
Boeing already used that trick once when they transitioned from the B737-200 to the B737 Classic family.

If you look at the current nextgen models, the engine is already quite high up.
There are several problems one has to bear in mind if Boeing should consider that option:

-Mass & balance: The engines weigh 2.5 tons each, 5 tons total. (or 50kN)
Let's say that the engines are moved forward by 0.5 meters by a more forward pylon. The center of gravity being somewhere around the middle of the wing, the nose-down momentum will increase by 0.5 m x 50kN = 25k N.m.
The horizontal stab placed about 20 meters behind the center of gravity will have to exerce a force of
25k Nm / 20 m or around 100kg constantly to compensate this shift.
This will cause more fuel to be burned.

-Weight:
The pylon will need to be stronger and thus will become heavier.
More weight leads to more fuel burn.

-Aerodynamics:
The reason for bringing the engine more forward will be to place the larger engine higher. Not necessarily higher but ground clearance has to be the same, so additional diameter must be put upwards.
This will mean that the airstream going to the wing leading edge will be disturbed even more, thus leading to aerodynamic loss, which will have to be compensated by more thrust, thus more fuel.
This also requires a re-calculation of many additional aerodynamic parameters.

-Safety: Engines are made to break off in case of excessive stress. Additional design safeguards will have to be designed to make sure that the engine slides downwards and doesn't tilt with the front end upwards. Though the front of the engine is heavier, depending on the sequence of the bolts breaking off, the engine could tilt up.
The last thing you want is the engine breaking off and smashing into your wing.

Cost: Cost of design, production and maintenance for the extended pylon will be higher.
This will also adversely impact operational cost.


Bringing the pylon more forward is/was one of the options of the MAX.
I don't know if they're going to use that too but they decided to go for the solution of lenghtening the nose landing gear by up to 20cm, not sure if that will solve anything.
If you do Tan-1 on the wheelbase of the different models (about 15 meters), you see that a 20 cm higher nose gear vs the current one (which is about 240cm?) will only create a slope of less than 1°.

Judging by the renderings on their site, it looks like Boeing themselves aren't quite so sure how they're going to solve the problem. It's almost like they wish they could build the pylon into the engine or on the side of the engine.

http://www.newairplane.com/737/737Max/

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by smokejumper » 26 Jan 2012, 02:43

This is a BIG expansion. Sometimes you can choke on too much of anything. I hope this works out.

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by SN539 » 26 Jan 2012, 10:14

Flanker wrote:
As to Norwegian's order, there's a large question mark.
As Cathaybelgium notes, the market in Scandinavia isn't large enough for such a huge operation.
Moreover, Norwegian may have ambitions to grow into continental Europe with hubs but they'll encounter strong resistance with Ryanair and co. The market isn't large enough for three large competitors.

The only way such a Norwegian strategy can work is if they can offer legacy carrier class service with a low cost structure to take-over legacy carriers operations out of the major airports.
For instance, if they come to BRU with 30 A320 NEO's, they can easily crush SN and take-over the BRU market and some of the LCC market from EIN and CRL to develop a succesful hub.
Just a question ... Norway is not part of the European Community. So is it conceivable for a norwegian company to operate flights between hubs in Europe like Ryanair or Easy Jet ??

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by earthman » 26 Jan 2012, 10:34

Norway is part of the EEA, so the same rules apply. In fact, Switzerland is also included within the definition of EEA for the purposes of the single aviation market. However, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are not part of the EU or EEA and different rules apply there, even though they are part of the UK.

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by brusselsairlinesfan » 26 Jan 2012, 11:06

Major challenge for SAS I would say...

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Re: Largest Ever Aircraft Acquisition in Europe: 222 aircraf

Post by cnc » 26 Jan 2012, 11:29

from what i know its:
22 737-800 firm
100 737-MAX8 firm
100 737-MAX8 option
100 A320 firm
50 A320NEO option

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