Brussels Airlines Dakar-Brussels flight cancelled

jal · Post by **jal** » 07 Apr 2007, 00:44

Brussels Airlines should order several Boeing 787's before it is too late,

and some second-hand B777's (hard to find) for their reputation and

reliability. I already mentionned this several months ago in an other

thread.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » 07 Apr 2007, 11:44

jal wrote:Brussels Airlines should order several Boeing 787's before it is too late,

and some second-hand B777's (hard to find) for their reputation and

reliability. I already mentionned this several months ago in an other

thread.

Money money money, must be funny ... if b.air had some ... . Be realistic please. And if they would have the money, how will they ever fill a 787 of a 777.

OrientThai · Post by **OrientThai** » 07 Apr 2007, 15:29

This problem might not have been handled in the most efficient way but that's not a reason to bash Brussels Airlines.
Flying to airports like FIH, KGL, or DKR is a whole different story than flying between BRU and JFK. With lacks of proper infrastructure (no qualified mechanics, no proper spare parts...) a small technical glitch can become a serious a problem and force the cancellation of the flight.
Operating a small fleet of A330s to difficult places is indeed challenging. But I would indeed rather fly onboard those "old" A330s than those new B777s operated by PIA.

This kind of problems happen two or three times a year, so thumb up to Brussels Airlines who successfully performs every day safe and reliable flights out of challenging airports like Monrovia, Freetown, Kinshasa...But this time no mention of it in the press...

beaucaire · Post by **beaucaire** » 07 Apr 2007, 15:43

SN are doing in general a good job in serving African destinations.
Truth is, they need to beef up their loacl management in order to prevent to spoil their reputation they have earnd throughout the years as "African spezialist"
Running out of some African airports is not an easy task -agreed!
But with the years ,SN must have accumulated some form of knowledge-base and contacts ,that should have been put in placeby now.
If not ,the management stinks and has not learned the basic lessons about captive markets,media influence and business development.
I've always been weary about the too careful growth of SN on the long haul sector-jesus christ -they can't just compete on the standard European routes without a specific "heavy" segent where they differenciate themselves from the rest of the pack.
IB is South America,TP is Brazil,LH is Asia /USA, LX is still Africa,BA is USA,KLM is Caribes-South America, SN is Africe ( or is ot still ??? )

Post by **sn26567** » 07 Apr 2007, 17:23

EBBR_Based wrote:According to the rules you refer to, they shouldn't have given anything at all as a last-minute technical problem is still "force majeure".

Most of the time a technical problem is the responsibility of the airline (lack of maintenance or bad maintenance). Only an animal strike could, in my view, be seen as force majeure.

The EU has issued regulations, but there are still wide variations in their interpretation (Ryanair certainly has not the same interpretation as SN) and the EU should do a good job in providing some guidance to the airlines and passengers alike.

LJ · Post by LJ » 07 Apr 2007, 18:01

sn26567 wrote:
EBBR_Based wrote:According to the rules you refer to, they shouldn't have given anything at all as a last-minute technical problem is still "force majeure".
Most of the time a technical problem is the responsibility of the airline (lack of maintenance or bad maintenance). Only an animal strike could, in my view, be seen as force majeure.

The EU has issued regulations, but there are still wide variations in their interpretation (Ryanair certainly has not the same interpretation as SN) and the EU should do a good job in providing some guidance to the airlines and passengers alike.

sn26567, almost every airline in europe won't pay if the cancellation is the result of a sudden technical problem. I've had the same issue when I tried to get compensation from Lufthansa when they cancelled my flight. They said that because of the "sudden" technical problem they don't have to pay (according to the EU regulation). Basically they said that a sudden technical problem (like the one SN had in Senegal) ís a "force majeure". I also know that many other airlines also have this policy on sudden technical problems.

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 07 Apr 2007, 18:18

EBBR_Based wrote:
So it seems this is not the 1st time it happens.
Affirm, and it won't be the last time either.

I was speeking about pax mismanagement man !

EBBR_Based wrote:I'm confident that SN, although they didn't really succeed this time due to the lack of alternatives, did their utmost to limit the impact on the passengers.

Due to lack of alternatives !!!

Please think BEFOREHAND of alternatives.
And make sure these incidents are handled smoothly and routinely in the future.

Sabena possessed some hotel facilities in a few key african destinations but this was liquidated when the airline went bankrupt.
Probably they knew what they were doing and investing for, having the experience and the ambitions on the african continent.
They had their reward since SABENA is still remembered in Africa and widely regretted .
I am sad to say that Brussels Airlines is WAYS from achieving that !!

I fully agree with Beaucaire previous posting!
Every line of your posting is dictated by common sense.
Indeed without proper market handling and SUBSTANTIAL growth on their african core market (plus possible diversification on the NAtlantic I dare to add), Brussels Airlines is doomed to fail !!!

There are some well behaviour rules in the airline industry (pls forgive me to state what everybody knows ;o) :

1. Treat your passengers well because they will appreciate coming back and they will make your promotion.
Brussels Airlines has reported some failures on that field (pax mismanagement, bonus points not cared for, inline ticketing system not optimal, etc...)
Do they have an adhoc quality mangement that inquires inside the business structure and put changes forward ?

2. Go daily on your destinations whenever possible.
For Brussels Airlines this is far from reached.
You will tell me that the demand is too weak and I will reply that you have to create it through an appropriate hub structure.
Anyhow having 1-stop routes is a good thing because it helps going daily.

3. Cooperate with other airlines to better fill your planes.
On this respect I have doubts on the current WAfrican flights departure/arrival times, not at all suited for Far East connections.
It was no surprise to me when Hainan reduced frequencies to BRU.
If you want to develop the China/Japan link, BRU has to offer something original. Why not try the WAfrican market?
Yes I have my doubts on the viability of the current US-BRU-Wafrica link.

On the other hand concerning the EAfrican routes the current schedule seems ok because well fitted with the american flights.
However EAfrica really needs strong development, not fearing the hard competition from KL.

Be realistic please. And if they would have the money, how will they ever fill a 787 of a 777.

My god !!! If they don't know how, let them open a "chocolaterie" at the grand-place in Brussels !

airazurxtror · Post by **airazurxtror** » 07 Apr 2007, 18:54

LJ wrote: Basically they said that a sudden technical problem (like the one SN had in Senegal) ís a "force majeure". I also know that many other airlines also have this policy on sudden technical problems.

Is there any cause of delay or cancellation which is NOT considered "cas de force majeure" by the airlines ?

foxtrot_lima_yankee · Post by **foxtrot_lima_yankee** » 07 Apr 2007, 20:31

Why can t they use a 777 on Japanese routes?

Japanese routes have a great potential if the can be served adequatly.
The few options from NRT to travel into Europe for example are:

-Aeroflot (High prices+stop at Sherementjevo)
-Air France (Very high prices)
-Alitalia (High prices, bad service, you never know weither you arrive safely, not liked by Japanese tour organisators in general)
-ANA (High prices but good service incl. shuttle service to CDG)
-British Airways (High prices but good service)
-JAL (Very high prices)
-KLM (High prices)
-Lufthansa (High prices, need to change in FRA)

And I m sure the Belgian regions would be more than happy to apply some tax-reduction conditions as it will stimulate the local tourism!!

Because Sabena closed, very little Japanese tourists still come in Belgium as it is more become an "optional destination" rather than a "main tourist destination.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 07 Apr 2007, 22:32

Is there any cause of delay or cancellation which is NOT considered "cas de force majeure" by the airlines ?

An airline indeed does not have to refund - or does not have to pay indemnity - if the cause of the delay or cancellation is caused by cas de force majeure / overmacht / Hand of God. Please note however that assistance to the stranded pax always has to be offered, no matter if it is or is not Hand of God. That's the reason why Brussels Airlines immediately offered these pax 200 euro's: their station manager in Dakar ran away, so the reason of the delay wasn't important anymore.

Examples of Hand of God which eliminates (or reduces) responsability:
- strike by air traffic control
- strike by the fire department
- strike by the official airport weather service
- extreme weather conditions (heavy snow i.e.)
- bird strike
- rabbit strike
- kangoeroe strike (Qantas and Virgin Blue only)
- aircraft being hit on the ground by vehicle/plane not belonging to a business partner, a supplier or the carrier itself
- airport closed on government (or police) order
- public vehicle (f.e. fire brigade truck) hitting plane
- air space being closed on government (or police) order
- delay, caused by a medical emergency
- breakdown of the de-icing vehicle, provided by the airport
- runway blocked by plane with technical failure

Are considered as own responsability for the airline: delays or cancellations caused by:
- strike by own staff
- bad weather, and aircraft too old or not equipped - while others land / take off
- private vehicle (f.e. luggage trolley from handling agent) hitting plane
- strike by catering company, causing no fresh water on plane
- strike by fuel supplier
- strike by handling agent
- computer reservations system breakdown
- missing pax delaying departure
- drunken pax on board
- delay caused by late arrival of the plane, unless that initial delay was caused by Hand of God
- flat tyre, unless it's caused by a foreign object on the runway or taxiway
- AND: delay caused by a technical failure which was not caused by a bird strike.

Indeed, even if the delay is to resolve a safety issue (i.e. oil pressure in engine too low), a technical failure is almost never seen as Hand of God.

Homo Aeroportus · Post by **Homo Aeroportus** » 09 Apr 2007, 01:03

Hi,

Been playing "Road Runner" a lot lately and just read about SN(?) mishap in DKR.

I learned a lot about how to run 24/7 PR ops, hotel opening hours in Dakar and 777-deprived Japanese would-be tourists, but does anyone know of a web site I can find some information about what happened?

I mean to the aircraft, the thing I am interested in and why I visist Luchtzak?

Thanks.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 09 Apr 2007, 12:26

Homo Aeroportus wrote:
Does anyone know of a web site I can find some information about what happened? I mean to the aircraft?

Apparently a wing flap failure.

Brussels Airlines preferred the guys from Sabena Technics to come over to Dakar - thus the delay.

Homo Aeroportus · Post by **Homo Aeroportus** » 09 Apr 2007, 15:03

Thanks LX-LGX.

System failure or FOD related?
Hope it was not a rabbit

BR.

Ozzie1969 · Post by **Ozzie1969** » 09 Apr 2007, 17:55

How about an elephant strike?

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 11 Apr 2007, 15:51

Another A330 from BruAir is on the ground with a technical problem. It seems that SFM which came from Nairobi is grounded for a few days. They even think about a max of 8 days.

Lucky that this happened in BRU and not somewhere else with pax waiting.

Does anyone know more about this?

foxtrot_lima_yankee · Post by **foxtrot_lima_yankee** » 11 Apr 2007, 20:54

What will replace this aircraft s flight plan?

Post by **sn26567** » 12 Apr 2007, 09:24

FlyA330 wrote:Lucky that this happened in BRU and not somewhere else with pax waiting.

Do you mean there are no passengers waiting in Brussels?

The only advantage of this incident happening in Brussels is that repairs will be easier with Sabena Technics present on site.

As a result, today's flight to Dakar is cancelled. Poor Dakar passengers: it seems that it is a doomed destination...

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 12 Apr 2007, 10:03

sn26567 wrote:Most of the time a technical problem is the responsibility of the airline (lack of maintenance or bad maintenance). Only an animal strike could, in my view, be seen as force majeure.

indeed, Lufthansa once hit hyenas on a NBO-runway, and one cannot blame LH for bad or poor maintenance.
Read this about La force majeure ne protège pas les compagnies aériennes and article 9 of the European regulations.

Actually the question here should be: “Force Majeure” or “Pre-Existing Condition”?
Some aviation experts have been talking also about; “self-inflicted wounds”.... as lack of maintenance or bad maintenance.

And Andre, I would add as a force majeure, 'the weather', a tornado, a tsunami, war? Also called in English 'hand of God', but not Mano de Dios as defined by a Diego Maradona some 20 years ago!

Bad management would in my view be a “Pre-Existing Condition” and “self-inflicted wounds”.

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 12 Apr 2007, 10:13

sn-remember wrote:My god !!! If they don't know how, let them open a "chocolaterie" at the grand-place in Brussels !

Not a cheap location either, sn-remember... but maybe with the help of the former Sobelair boss, he has a place there?

btw, for the ones that did not understand "chocolaterie", its a chocolate factory in Dutch.
And some people believe in him:

buck · Post by **buck** » 12 Apr 2007, 10:32

André,

The DAR flight is not at all cancelled. DKR is operated in A319 and BJL in B767. It seems that not only the journalists have bad and wrong info !!!

Ciao

Buck