Lufthansa in 2020

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rwandan-flyer
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Guillermo wrote: 27 May 2020, 16:43 Have just grabbed some highlights from Carsten Spohr's webcast to the LH staff ... Things look quite grim: EU would want LH to let go of a number of slots at their MUC and FRA hubs for competition to play, not sure LH will be able to pay the June salaries (they are even looking at the possibility to sell planes for cash and giving the circumstances, one can understand this will not be easy), etc etc ...
Not sure how to interpret these messages and if they are mere power play from Spohr towards EU and Germany, but it is clear LH is not the cash cow the BE government thinks it is. All things set aside, it may be unwise to think LH will not let Brussels Airlines go broke. Not because they do not want to save them in the short run, but because they simply can't.
Confirmed by French media

Lufthansa "unable to approve" EU bailout as it stands

Lufthansa's supervisory board was unable to "approve" the 9 billion euro bailout deal negotiated with the German state on Wednesday because of conditions imposed by Brussels, including "the economic consequences" and "the alternatives "must be" thoroughly studied ".

https://translate.google.fr/translate?h ... 0680404%2F


Lufthansa rescue plan stuck


The planned rescue of the first European air transport group had to be postponed Wednesday: the Lufthansa company refused in the state to approve it, citing the too strict conditions of the European competition policeman.

(in French) https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/le-pl ... e-20200527

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lumumba
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Ansett wrote: 27 May 2020, 18:24
Poiu wrote: 26 May 2020, 23:40
lumumba wrote: 26 May 2020, 18:49

Let's say that the advantage of this big companies are that they have big hubs and a lot of connections possibility.
If they transfer some flights to small hubs like Brussels and Vienna they will lose this advantage.
You misunderstood Patrice, Ansett wants to transfer slots, not reroute flights to another hub!!
Eg: SN operates BRU-FRA-LIN-FRA-BRU using an SN flight number between FRA and LIN.
:?: :?: :?:

I/we don't know how many slots LH would have to give up at FRA/MUC, but I was thinking of transferring to SN in BRU some high frequency long haul flights operating out of FRA/MUC, like for instance (just an example) high frequency flights (several per day, I mean) to some destinations in the Americas (NYC/IAD ?)
The same for OS for high frequency flights to the Eastern part of the world (BOM/BKK ?)
It would enable LH to release slots at FRA/MUC and to give a boost to SN and OS (in the medium term future).
A market analysis needs to be done first, of course.

(My thoughts are just part of the discussion on the forum, some kind of brainstorming and a lot of speculation :? )
That's exactly what I tought but it will not work because has bigger the hub has bigger the connections possibility that's why you will lose pax to other big hubs that will have this connections possibility.
Brussels airlines is partly more a niche airline with some niche passengers linked to Africa like Belgium,France, NY etc...
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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sn26567
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

LH has to free slots in FRA/MUC for the "competition". One cannot seriously pretend that SN and OS are competition...
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sn26567
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Lufthansa and Fraport plan to form a joint venture to further develop the Frankfurt airport. Is it really necessary?
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Lufthansa will not give away slots at FRA and/or at MUC because it is not "Lufthansa against the German government and against Europe". It is now "Lufthansa and the German government versus Margrethe Vestager, the EU Competition Commissioner".

That's my personal opinion. But of course I'm not that good informed about Carsten Spohrs' deepest thoughts as one Av24-member clearly is.

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RoMax
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by RoMax »

sn26567 wrote: 27 May 2020, 23:05 Lufthansa and Fraport plan to form a joint venture to further develop the Frankfurt airport. Is it really necessary?
Is it necessary? Maybe not - but if it's like the model they have in Munich (joint-development and operation of Terminal 2 since 2003), that has proven extremely successful for both parties. Contrary to the blossoming relationship of LH with MUC, there have been more than a few wrinkles in the relationship with FRA. Allowing LH to have a bigger say in the development & operation of certain parts of the airport (while requiring investment in return) can be beneficial for both. MUC is quite an example for what can be achieved if this is done right.

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Ansett wrote: 28 May 2020, 12:52
Passenger wrote: 27 May 2020, 23:23 Lufthansa will not give away slots at FRA and/or at MUC because it is not "Lufthansa against the German government and against Europe". It is now "Lufthansa and the German government versus Margrethe Vestager, the EU Competition Commissioner".
...The rules have not changed (yet). It's up to the member States to change the ruls, if they want to, not the EU Commission.
The Commission has changed the rules. The Commission has changed the rules during the game. The rules have been changed on 08th May 2020. Vestager now applies different parameters for Lufthansa (9 billion) as she did for Air France (7 billion) and for Alitalia (3 billion).
https://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_ ... ork_en.pdf

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Handelsblatt reports that a deal has been reached between Lufthansa and Vestager (EU). Lufthansa has to give up 12 slots at FRA and 12 slots at MUC.

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Passenger wrote: 29 May 2020, 22:55 Handelsblatt reports that a deal has been reached between Lufthansa and Vestager (EU). Lufthansa has to give up 12 slots at FRA and 12 slots at MUC.
Article on the homepage:
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... rt-munich/

crew1990
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Well just transfert 12+12 flights from Frankfurt and Munich to Brussels, Geneva, Zurich and Vienna to Brussels Airlines, Austrian and Swiss and that's it, no big deal.

lucas
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by lucas »

crew1990 wrote: 30 May 2020, 09:34 Well just transfert 12+12 flights from Frankfurt and Munich to Brussels, Geneva, Zurich and Vienna to Brussels Airlines, Austrian and Swiss and that's it, no big deal.
As someone already stated above, these airlines will probably not be seen as competetion as they are part of the Lufthansa Group.

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Airbus330lover »

Simple, give the slots, transfer the longhaul concerned flights to BRU, upgrade the feeder flights from FRA and MUC with bigger planes.
Suggestion : the african flights out of FRA and MUC

crew1990
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

If Luthansa have to give long haul flight to someone, don't dream, Brussels Airlines will get nothing, everything will be granted to swiss

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

It’s is not the first time that EU-Commissioner Vestager collides head-on with Germany. In February 2019, Vestager blocked the merger of Siemens (Germany, ICE) and Alstom (France, TGV). Vestager didn’t want that the two would get an almost monopoly as railways-constructor in Europe (the merger was aimed as counterforce against the expansion in Europe by the Chinese CRRC, twice as big as the 2 Europeans together). And in 2017, Vestager blocked that Lufthansa bought the assets from Air Berlin (RIP): she only allowed that Lufthansa took over DBA.

Vestager view on German state aid to Lufthansa is in line with her political views. She belongs to the Danish socialliberal / liberal-left party Radikale Venstre (Google translates that name into “Radical Left”). Vestiger says that if an airline gets state aid via capital injection, its finances becomes more solid and thus more attractive for banks and investors. That will allow to obtain better financial conditions to eliminate a competitor – and consumers just need competition. When the state aid is via a loan, that loan must be repaid so there is no such advantage, Vestager said. A narrowminded view because lenders know that a shareholder can quit at all times. And Alitalia proofs that loans can be extended forever.

Hence Vestagers’ decision that Lufthansa may be saved to saveguard employment, but that at the same time Lufthansa must bleed to neutralize that state aid advantage.

Just one of the sources about this:
https://www.euractiv.com/section/compet ... t/1472523/

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Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

crew1990 wrote: 30 May 2020, 12:04 If Luthansa have to give long haul flight to someone, don't dream, Brussels Airlines will get nothing, everything will be granted to swiss
Why not give it to the Africa expert of the group?

crew1990
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Because those long haul flight are needed in a "real" hub wich is not yet the case in brussels. Almost all the long haul flight are to Africa in Brussels, transfering Africa flight from Germany to Belgium wouldn't be a good strategy, you will not have a pax travelling from Yaounde to Lagos via Brussels, but you could have a pax travelling from Osaka to Nairobi via Zurich

nordikcam
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

crew1990 wrote: 30 May 2020, 19:00 Because those long haul flight are needed in a "real" hub wich is not yet the case in brussels. Almost all the long haul flight are to Africa in Brussels, transfering Africa flight from Germany to Belgium wouldn't be a good strategy, you will not have a pax travelling from Yaounde to Lagos via Brussels, but you could have a pax travelling from Osaka to Nairobi via Zurich
Easy to understand. SN's specificity "Africa" ​​would therefore serve no purpose. The main thing is that there is a network ... so little future for BRU and therefore for SN in the decades to come!

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by PttU »

lucas wrote: 30 May 2020, 10:12
crew1990 wrote: 30 May 2020, 09:34 Well just transfert 12+12 flights from Frankfurt and Munich to Brussels, Geneva, Zurich and Vienna to Brussels Airlines, Austrian and Swiss and that's it, no big deal.
As someone already stated above, these airlines will probably not be seen as competetion as they are part of the Lufthansa Group.
It depends? This is about support to Lufthansa, not "the Lufthansa Group". I don't know the legal and accounting details, but maybe that means they CAN go to SN/OS/LX... If it's another company, it can be seen as a competitor. Where would you otherwise draw the line: codesharing partners? Members of the same alliance? Part of the shares?
As stated on the homepage "For one and a half years, this option is only available to new competitors at the Frankfurt and Munich airports. ". SN currently (well... pre-corona) doesn't have a flight to FRA and MUC? So they could be seen as "new competitors"? Let's see how inventive the legal department is :lol:

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cathay belgium
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Instead of Ryanair think Wizz ! For MUC and FRA slots !
Much more a destination for instead FR !

For transferring LH flights... BER maybe but don't underestimate the power of DUS when things will start getting better..
And that's also their homecountry , why giving away jobs to ZRH,BRU when Merkel gave 9 billion for Germany !!

CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

"Lufthansa Supervisory Board approves stabilization measures":
https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... 4ba06a2408

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