Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

b.lufthansa wrote: 13 May 2020, 14:59 The employees that will stay on board will be offered a new collective labor agreement, less salary, more working and less rest between the duties. Still a lot of talking to be done between management and unions.
A journo from VRT (or was it VTM?) asked the same question to that ABVV/FGTB lady. Her reply: "well, we can't go on strike, so..."

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

oldblueeyes wrote: 13 May 2020, 14:55
nordikcam wrote: 13 May 2020, 14:19
JOVAN wrote: 13 May 2020, 14:14
Finally:
- CS is not eternal
I asked. Does anyone know when his contract ends? Could shareholders end this contract?
2023. Can be extended max 2026.
Head of supervisory board is Kley - ex CEO Merck and ex LH board member- so both have the LH internal route.
And current shareholders are pretty satisfied with CS, as he is reshaping the company after several issues from the past were continuosly postponed by his predecessors.
So, unlikely to change him as he is heavily advocating the interests of current shareholders against dilution of votes, state interferences etc. And Germany is not asking for his replacement as a price for any deal.
Still, I cannot imagine Merkel will grant 9 billion EUR if German Gvnmt does not get a share or different seat in Board of Directors.
Conditions like replacing lots of domestic routes by train, environmental conditions, taxes on kerosine..., higher VAT on trips will be implemented and this will only happen with strict Govmt control.
Bonus, dividends etc also to be curtailed..

I hope SN and OS will follow a similar strict strategy.
Spohr has left a trail of destruction and frustration in both countries.

The commercial disasters Germanwings, Eurowings, also proof that Spohr is not Superman.

I see him walking away with a golden parachute in a not so far future.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

ostair wrote: 13 May 2020, 14:28 Which destinations will be axed?
Have been mentioned: Lanzarote, Palermo, Catania, Billund, Bristol. For the rest, it's anyone's guess, with a high probability that many TCAB destinations will go down the drain.
André
ex Sabena #26567

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

You have to understand German politics first - who is talking/claiming what and how serious this is weighted into the negotiations.

The majority in the federal gvmt is led by the conservatives - and they have not only Merkel but also the economics minister, a loyal of Angela. The position of this party is that state influence on management decision shall be avoided, however, a minority veto right to protect Lufthansa in times of low valuation is reasonable, with an exit strategy . eg shares buy back.
With conservatives, social-democrats are ruling the country and their head is the finance minister. The negotiating position of them is that the state should take control, align with trade unions, high guaranteed dividends for state shares all "creative" ideas. Worth to notice here that most of them do not come from the ministers, as most of them belong to the centric arm of the party, but from the left wing which took now control of the party heads. Also worth to notice that during Corona times the conservatives raised their popularity from 25 to 40% whilst social democrats are "stable" at 15% - which is a catastrophic value for them.

Another voice claiming whatever things are the greens, but here you should also differentiate between those in Berlin being in opposition and those in Frankfurt being active in the regional government that just gave a huge credit to Condor. So, how sutainable are claims asking Lufthansa for greener jets under state control if the same party trough the regional economics minister in Frankfurt gave a 500 mio loan without any guarantee for a company flying with old 767 and 757?

Also several measures are rather green claims that look good on paper. Replacing flights by train? Well, go to Frankfurt airport and you'll see already code shares for several big cities in a 2 hours area. Do you want to replace something like Hamburg-Munich? Well, rather not practicable, that's 5 times the longest distance between any 2 borders in Belgium.

Germanwings a failure? Yes, but 2003 - trial to make a LCC company with legacy pilots costs. Since than, the "new" Germanwings came to black zero after taking over 300 mio annual losses from the mainline and protected the decentral markets from Ryanair and co. So quite a a management success, if you know what to expect and not what Michael O'Leary is benchmarking in his powerpoint slides.

Distruction in Austria and Belgium? Also rather not satisfied local hopes and dreams. Ora candies taken back after manegement was uanble to manage them.

So let's wait and see...

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

sn26567 wrote: 13 May 2020, 17:17
ostair wrote: 13 May 2020, 14:28 Which destinations will be axed?
Have been mentioned: Lanzarote, Palermo, Catania, Billund, Bristol. For the rest, it's anyone's guess, with a high probability that many TCAB destinations will go down the drain.
Destination in the UK, Germany and Moscow. 8 in total as they were Cityjet destinations. Others like TCAB destinations and a few long haul as 2 long haul planes less. We have to wait which one as they are checking destination by destination. Africa should be OK bcs of the valuable cargo they have on board but also to certain destinations there are not full. So certain destinations there can also be

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

JOVAN wrote: 13 May 2020, 14:14
We better keep strategic industries and infrastructures in our own hands
Hear, hear.

I hope politicians have learned their lesson by now.... But I'm afraid they'll never learn.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

oldblueeyes wrote: 13 May 2020, 17:21 You have to understand German politics first - who is talking/claiming what and how serious this is weighted into the negotiations.

The majority in the federal gvmt is led by the conservatives - and they have not only Merkel but also the economics minister, a loyal of Angela. The position of this party is that state influence on management decision shall be avoided, however, a minority veto right to protect Lufthansa in times of low valuation is reasonable, with an exit strategy . eg shares buy back.
With conservatives, social-democrats are ruling the country and their head is the finance minister. The negotiating position of them is that the state should take control, align with trade unions, high guaranteed dividends for state shares all "creative" ideas. Worth to notice here that most of them do not come from the ministers, as most of them belong to the centric arm of the party, but from the left wing which took now control of the party heads. Also worth to notice that during Corona times the conservatives raised their popularity from 25 to 40% whilst social democrats are "stable" at 15% - which is a catastrophic value for them.

Another voice claiming whatever things are the greens, but here you should also differentiate between those in Berlin being in opposition and those in Frankfurt being active in the regional government that just gave a huge credit to Condor. So, how sutainable are claims asking Lufthansa for greener jets under state control if the same party trough the regional economics minister in Frankfurt gave a 500 mio loan without any guarantee for a company flying with old 767 and 757?

Also several measures are rather green claims that look good on paper. Replacing flights by train? Well, go to Frankfurt airport and you'll see already code shares for several big cities in a 2 hours area. Do you want to replace something like Hamburg-Munich? Well, rather not practicable, that's 5 times the longest distance between any 2 borders in Belgium.

Germanwings a failure? Yes, but 2003 - trial to make a LCC company with legacy pilots costs. Since than, the "new" Germanwings came to black zero after taking over 300 mio annual losses from the mainline and protected the decentral markets from Ryanair and co. So quite a a management success, if you know what to expect and not what Michael O'Leary is benchmarking in his powerpoint slides.

Distruction in Austria and Belgium? Also rather not satisfied local hopes and dreams. Ora candies taken back after manegement was uanble to manage them.

So let's wait and see...

To be honest, the Belgian taxpayer, Brussels Airlines staff, the Belgian aviation community doesn't give a $&%@ about German politics.

All we see is that after 10 years of Lufthansa getting involved in Brussels Airlines, hundreds of millions of taxpayer money burned along the way, Belgian shareholders being given peanuts by LH, staff undergoing restructuring over restructuring, stripping off of the Belgian identity and imposing Eurowings, Brussels Airlines was in a worse situation at the end of 2019 than it was in 2009. LX, OS and EW are on the 2020 timetable of Lufthansa, but no SN flights on the timetable.

Then in 2020 the virus came along and now the Belgian aviation community has all the options on the table, including taking back control of its future.

People were not nice to me on this forum over the years, despite that I clearly explained why this would be a problem. Many had their judgement clouded by the Lufthansa narrative and as recently as last year still believed in it.

What really shook everyone awake is this:


Image

(For those not so familiar with Belgian aviation, it's OO-SNN arriving in EW livery)

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/firs ... -brussels/


When this happened, everyone realised that it's over.



Imagine for a minute the outrage in Germany if Brussels Airlines had acquired Lufthansa and started repainting the Lufthansa aircraft in Brussels Airlines Express livery.

Germans aristocrats and political class live in their little bubble looking down on others from their towers of their oversubsidised industries. From a criminal banking sector, secret subsidies to automakers, and now they are using Coronavirus to supercharge their entire nation's corporations:

Discretionary 2020 fiscal measures adopted in response to coronavirus by 16 April 2020*, % of 2019 GDP

Immediate fiscal impulse Deferral Other liquidity/guarantee
Belgium 0.7% 3.0% 10.9%
Denmark 2.1% 7.2% 2.9%
France 2.4% 9.4% 14.0%
Germany 10.1% 14.6% 27.2%
Greece 1.1% 2.0% 0.5%
Hungary 0.4% 8.3% 0.0%
Italy 0.9% 13.2% 29.8%
Netherlands 1.6% 3.2% 0.6%
Portugal 2.5% 11.1% 5.5%
Spain 1.1% 1.5% 9.1%
United Kingdom 4.5% 1.4% 14.9%
United States 9.1% 2.6% 2.6%


Explain this to me: why does an multinational airline that pays its taxes fair and square need subsidiaries in off-shore tax havens?
https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... e50228fd10

Belgium has to set its priorities straight.
Without a strong aviation sector, its services sector is in peril.

With French, Dutch and German corporations invading Belgium from all sides, if we're going to subsidise them at the expense of Belgian businesses without having any say on those businesses, you might as well split the country three-way and get it over with.

Spohr to Wilmes: "Dear Sophie, please leave the bag of money at the B.House front door and walk away. That'll be all."

As an ending note, I want to say that the German aristocracy and political class looks down not only on Belgian politicians and corporations, but they also look down on their own working class.
I think that Anderlecht or Molenbeek look nicer than Dusseldorf these days.

Shonix
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Joined: 31 Jan 2018, 12:06

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

One question: what would have become Brussels Airlines without Lufthansa or any other major airline companies that would have invested in SN to develop?

SN would have never survived alone. It would have disappeared years ago.

oldblueeyes
Posts: 91
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

You can just compare with real Peers.
- FlyBe or VLM in the size of regional aicraft
- Air Belgium in long haul, happy with State-of-the-art 343 and breathing to survive with wet leases for LOT and so

Flankers approach is about flags, registration numbers and money burn. I am sure he would make a creat Alitalia armchair CEO, but unser commercial reality life is different.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

lumumba wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:03 Does the employees of Brussels Airlines proposed a salary cut like with Lufthansa?
The opposite in fact, SN is imposing a deep cut. Employees are not allowed to talk about it on social media.

https://www.lecho.be/dossiers/coronavir ... 26962.html
Last edited by Poiu on 14 May 2020, 10:46, edited 1 time in total.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

I don't have access to the whole article, but the title says,

Lufthansa promises growth in America and Africa for Brussels Airlines

They talk about Miami, Newark and Nairobi, by 2026, what are yours thoughts ?

https://www.lecho.be/dossiers/coronavir ... 26936.html

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Amazing forum, this is.

Air Belgium gets an urgent 6,3M state aid as capital raise. No comments here.
Sonaca gets an urgent 100M state aid as capital raise. No comments here.
Ryanair announces a 10% salary cut for Belgian cabin crew. No comments here.
Ryanair announces a 20% salary cut for Belgian cockpit crew. No comments here.
TUI Annnouncement TUI: 8.000 jobs cut worldwide, including at TUI Belgium and TUIfly Belgium. No comments here.

The only thing we get here, is about one post every five minutes about Brussels Airlines. Most of them bashing Lufthansa, most of them insulting Carsten Spohr. No - I believe more what the German correspondent of the Financial Times wrote just a few days ago about Spohr and the negotiations in Germany:..."Yet Mr Spohr’s record could still convince the government not to clip his wings... Even before the coronavirus crisis, he was widely considered to have excelled in one of the toughest jobs in corporate Germany..."

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 14 May 2020, 10:24 I don't have access to the whole article, but the title says,

Lufthansa promises growth in America and Africa for Brussels Airlines

They talk about Miami, Newark and Nairobi, by 2026, what are yours thoughts ?

https://www.lecho.be/dossiers/coronavir ... 26936.html
If Brussels Airlines survives, it intends to also serve Newark, Nairobi or Miami by 2026. On May 20, its liquidity will be in the red, at -11 million euros.

In the spotlight with its heavy social plan and its request for state aid, Brussels Airlines is trying to reassure staff and government. It presented a long-term development plan to the staff, which L'Echo learned about.

For the period 2023-2026, Lufthansa estimates that Brussels Airlines is ideally placed for the American and African markets, in particular thanks to the acquisition of A321XLR, these single-aisle aircraft capable of covering long distances. By 2026, Brussels Airlines aims, in addition to its current destinations, to serve Boston at the rate of 6 flights per week, to establish a daily connection to Newark, but also to fly to Miami. In Africa, Nairobi (Kenya) and Kilimanjaro International Airport (Tanzania) would be added as destinations.
André
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Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Passenger wrote: 14 May 2020, 10:28
The only thing we get here, is about one post every five minutes about Brussels Airlines.
Shock horror indeed, posts about Brussels Airlines in a topic called Brussels Airlines!
Feel free to post news about other airlines in the relevant topic, but let’s stay on topic here, please.
This is a discussion forum and as such people express their personal opinion, no need to react like being stung by a wasp when others don’t share your opinion, especially when your own is controversial from time to time as well.
Last edited by Poiu on 14 May 2020, 11:14, edited 1 time in total.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Passenger wrote: 14 May 2020, 10:28 Amazing forum, this is.

Air Belgium gets an urgent 6,3M state aid as capital raise. No comments here.
Sonaca gets an urgent 100M state aid as capital raise. No comments here.
Ryanair announces a 10% salary cut for Belgian cabin crew. No comments here.
Ryanair announces a 20% salary cut for Belgian cockpit crew. No comments here.
TUI Annnouncement TUI: 8.000 jobs cut worldwide, including at TUI Belgium and TUIfly Belgium. No comments here.
You forgot about Airbus, where 10,000 jobs could be lost.

But this is a thread about Brussels Airlines. Most of the other topics you mention are covered on the homepage news.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Why fly to Newark? Let a second daily flight be flown by UA and look for another use for that equipment...

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

Passenger wrote: 14 May 2020, 10:28 Amazing forum, this is.

Air Belgium gets an urgent 6,3M state aid as capital raise. No comments here.
Sonaca gets an urgent 100M state aid as capital raise. No comments here.
Ryanair announces a 10% salary cut for Belgian cabin crew. No comments here.
Ryanair announces a 20% salary cut for Belgian cockpit crew. No comments here.
TUI Annnouncement TUI: 8.000 jobs cut worldwide, including at TUI Belgium and TUIfly Belgium. No comments here.
..."[/i]
Amazing indeed, as this Forum is about Brussels Airlines.
Amazing ?

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by DeltaWiskey »

Conti764 wrote: 14 May 2020, 10:47 Why fly to Newark? Let a second daily flight be flown by UA and look for another use for that equipment...
Wow, is this the real Belgian attitude?

After a lot of sad news in which a lot of people will loose their job, there are some (vague) prospects for growth and new destinations after the corona-crisis, and the reaction is: let it fly by other airlines. Maybe we should just let Brussels Airlines fail now then?

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Conti764 wrote: 14 May 2020, 10:47 Why fly to Newark? Let a second daily flight be flown by UA and look for another use for that equipment...
Many reasons, if one tries to use logic:

- JV - yes, it is a JV with UA and obligations might come from both sides - pure virtual JVs do not exist
- economics - you can easily calculate and steer pax flows hub-to-hub, that is something low risk and highly predictible, especially if the company to grow is not able to deliver profits yet
- market risks - if one earns money, it can try experimental new routes and burn cash until ceasing them or developing them to break even - but a company that makes no money can not simply fly out of the blue -> remember, a firm's objective is always delivering a profit!
- employment - if you want safe jobs you better go safe routes first - otherwise the option is not flying somewhere else, but no jobs at all and fleet somewhere else

But coming back to facts:
- it is known that Lufthansa is the driving force towards the 321XLR development
- however, no plane is flying yet
- and if Brussels should become some, it has to prove first that it can handle the cost of becoming them, as they would be brand new

Ge203
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Location: Brabant wallon/Waals-Brabant

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ge203 »

oldblueeyes wrote: 14 May 2020, 12:09
Conti764 wrote: 14 May 2020, 10:47 Why fly to Newark? Let a second daily flight be flown by UA and look for another use for that equipment...
Many reasons, if one tries to use logic:

- JV - yes, it is a JV with UA and obligations might come from both sides - pure virtual JVs do not exist
- economics - you can easily calculate and steer pax flows hub-to-hub, that is something low risk and highly predictible, especially if the company to grow is not able to deliver profits yet
- market risks - if one earns money, it can try experimental new routes and burn cash until ceasing them or developing them to break even - but a company that makes no money can not simply fly out of the blue -> remember, a firm's objective is always delivering a profit!
- employment - if you want safe jobs you better go safe routes first - otherwise the option is not flying somewhere else, but no jobs at all and fleet somewhere else

But coming back to facts:
- it is known that Lufthansa is the driving force towards the 321XLR development
- however, no plane is flying yet
- and if Brussels should become some, it has to prove first that it can handle the cost of becoming them, as they would be brand new
Indeed, the A321XLR is only an option if the 8% EBIT margin is reached by 2025, which I don't think will happen but who knows... If they ever reach 2025...

On the other hand, I think you guys are quite rude on SN current situation. If we take SN past 5 years, they had to deal with Brussels Attacks, with the costs related to it as well as the drop in demand. Skeyes mismanagement and strikes that led to delays and cancellations. Thomas Cook bankruptcy, even if most of you weren't into that deal, it allowed expansion and planes to fill. Swissport multiple strikes. I don't know airlines that had to manage that kind of situation. Brussels isn't a big touristic centre like Paris, London or Amsterdam. Brussels isn't a financial centre like Frankfurt, Zurich or London. The big asset Brussels has, is the European Commission. But even this isn't a real plus for SN. I have quite a few members of my family living in Italy, working at the Commission, and as they're Italian, they're kindly invited to take Alitalia first. I suppose it's the same for other countries...

Anyway, just to say that when I read "the company isn't profitable, blablabla" (even if it's what people care about at the en of the day), you have to look at the bigger picture.

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