Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Crosswind
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Crosswind »

Poiu wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 21:31

Careful with your accusations please, we are having a discussion between grownups, there is no right or wrong we have different ideas and try to support them with relevant arguments, this is not a mudd throwing contest.
But, of course, I do have proof and a figure: 4 million a year. (https://www.tijd.be/nieuws/onderneminge ... 01962.html)

Your 200 captains would pay the same or even more taxes if they were employed by another airline, so how does that justify State aid?
1 - I do not see on your link any proof of a wage deduction in profit of SN, in order to hide EU subsidies. I formaly ask you : stop sharing such infos without strong references. what I see is a global partial tax reduction for all belgian companies till 2005.

2 - My question remains : what about the real balance between in and out concerning SNBA for the period?

3 - No, a belgian commander flying away will not pay taxes in belgium. In no way.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Crosswind wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 21:50
Poiu wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 21:31

Careful with your accusations please, we are having a discussion between grownups, there is no right or wrong we have different ideas and try to support them with relevant arguments, this is not a mudd throwing contest.
But, of course, I do have proof and a figure: 4 million a year. (https://www.tijd.be/nieuws/onderneminge ... 01962.html)

Your 200 captains would pay the same or even more taxes if they were employed by another airline, so how does that justify State aid?
1 - I do not see on your link any proof of a wage deduction in profit of SN, in order to hide EU subsidies. I formaly ask you : stop sharing such infos without strong references. what I see is a global partial tax reduction for all belgian companies till 2005.

2 - My question remains : what about the real balance between in and out concerning SNBA for the period?

3 - No, a belgian commander flying away will not pay taxes in belgium. In no way.
How many of those captains are on outsource contracts through foreign pilot agencies?
its gonna have to be a lot to offset the 60 million euro anyway that was not repayed on the 125 million EUR
https://www.madeinvlaamsbrabant.be/nieu ... joen-euro/

Now they are asking for another 200 million which certainly was a preliminary figure, how much of those 200million (and the rest) is going to come back and more importantly at what interest rate over which time period? How many of those captains are on outsource contracts

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 20:20 I dont think anyone here does not not know what the word strategic means, a bit condescending to want to explain it.
No need for an intension process, Sean.
I can't guess the knowledge of people posting here; all I can is go by their remarks and proposals.
Many here clearly don't want to save the only network airline our country has, which would be utterly stupid in the light of the economic disaster that is awaiting us once we go 'unlocked': our country better be as well connected with other business centres as we possibly can and shouldn't count on others to come and do it for our sake...
sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 20:20Also everyone here know that the current balance sheet of the company indeed does not matter. What does matter is the balance sheet of the company in its entire existence which has been almost negative over the whole line.
Even that doesn't matter now.
Past performances have no more relation to future results, anywhere, under the current situation: not on the upside, and not on the downside.
Such are the times now.
sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 20:20 In a time where 100 strategic companies will be looking towards the tax payer to save them,
The FPIC has just 8 teams to work on strategic companies in Belgium, 3 of which are currenlty working on aviation related companies if one is to believe the press reports: number one is B.air, two is TUI Airlines, the third one is ground services, so clearly the number of real strategic companies is much lower than what you seem to think.
sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 20:20I think you still have problems seeing clear when it comes to SN inquirer, You have changed your opinion 100 times over the past years. From "the impressive line up of B tails in the morning" to the "perfect lcc-business blend company" to the "we need eurowings to seperate the brand" to "we dont need to brand at all". Unfortunatly for you I have a good memory.
Since you can't resist the urge to go personal, I hate to go as low as you: you indeed have a good memory, underpinned by loads of frustration, isn't it? ;)
Look, it has become obvious over the past years when you were still working for a direct competitor of there's here in Belgium that you coudn't have them clear the dance floor quickly enough for your employer to take the main stage over and for you to dance on it.
I feel like I've always stayed on the same track for all those years: I strongly support a home grown company over a foreign competitor trying to pick the cherries away: always have, always will. Names or products don't matter much to me, it's the DNA of the company which matters to me.
Call me an idiot of you want, but yes, I'm one of those frequent corporate flyers who still gets a feeling of almost being at home already the moment he steps aboard a Brussels Airlines flight, and I am willing to pay a bit more for that feeling which you've called all sort of things like naive, foolish and snobbish when you were still working downstairs, only to preach the exact same thing in your current job the moment you moved upstairs. Who's the one going anywhere the wind blows again, Sean?

As to the topic itself: the decision to help them out seems to have been taken in principle?
Far more interesting then to discuss the modalities, Any rumours as to which form it is going to take?
Last edited by Inquirer on 02 Apr 2020, 22:04, edited 1 time in total.

Crosswind
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Crosswind »

sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 21:56
its gonna have to be a lot to offset the 60 million euro anyway that was not repayed on the 125 million EUR
https://www.madeinvlaamsbrabant.be/nieu ... joen-euro/

Now they are asking for another 200 million which certainly was a preliminary figure, how much of those 200million is going to come back and more importantly at what interest rate over which time period?
You always give the paid amount by state (I use the word state to keep it simple) since 2001.

I ask you the global return for the same period, otherwise I can't follow you.

Give full numbers, otherwise you are talking in vain.
Last edited by Crosswind on 02 Apr 2020, 22:03, edited 1 time in total.

Crosswind
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Crosswind »

By the way, close to all captains are on belgian contracts. Same for F/O. What about other employees, do you think? Luxembourg citizens?

Come on...

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Inquirer wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:01
The FPIC has just 8 teams to work on strategic companies in Belgium, 3 of which are currenlty working on aviation related companies if one is to believe the press reports: number one is B.air, two is TUI Airlines, the third one is ground services, so clearly the number of real strategic companies is much lower than what you seem to think.
Not only aviation needs to bought out and is essential to Belgian economy


Inquirer wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:01Since you can't resist the urge to go personal, I hate to go as low as you: you indeed have a good memory, underpinned by loads of frustration, isn't it? ;)
Look, it has become obvious over the past years when you were still working for a direct competitor of there's here in Belgium that you coudn't have them clear the dance floor quickly enough for your employer to take the main stage over and for you to dance on it.
I feel like I've always stayed on the same track for all those years: I strongly support a home grown company over a foreign competitor trying to pick the cherries away: always have, always will. Names or products don't matter much to me, it's the DNA of the company which matters to me.
Call me an idiot of you want, but yes, I'm one of those frequent corporate flyers who still gets a feeling of almost being at home already the moment he steps aboard a Brussels Airlines flight, and I am willing to pay a bit more for that feeling which you've called all sort of things like naive, foolish and snobbish when you were still working downstairs, only to preach the exact same thing in your current job the moment you moved upstairs. Who's the one going anywhere the wind blows again, Sean?
You do underestimate me if you think my opinions is formed about certain frustrations i had when I worked for an employer over 5 years ago :D The only frustration I had back then was with the "boertigheid" of the personel towards my colleagues. I also,like yourself, am fond of a home grown company. That was my main reason to go and work for British AIrways, one of the few in Europe that can call itself exactly that. I only used Ryanair to my advantage, and it worked as well. Unlike you however, I wasn't dancing from hapiness with the decisions SN took and takes. If you were in any way not prejudiced, than you woud have seen this national drama coming from far and it was and is leading to everything but that homegrown carrier. That is the standpoint i have taken years ago, and lo and behold, i was right about a lot of things, as were others on this forum who were branded by people like you as inconsistent, bashers, stupid in some cases. Just to be clear, I have never called you an idiot, if it did make you feel that way, I am sorry. I merely wanted to point out that i didnt find your opinion and arguments in the discussion to be consistent. And further more, I am neither upstairs or downstairs anymore, I left aviation completely. I have gone where the wind blew me indeed, which i consider to be a positive thing.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Crosswind wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:01
sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 21:56
its gonna have to be a lot to offset the 60 million euro anyway that was not repayed on the 125 million EUR
https://www.madeinvlaamsbrabant.be/nieu ... joen-euro/

Now they are asking for another 200 million which certainly was a preliminary figure, how much of those 200million is going to come back and more importantly at what interest rate over which time period?
You always give the paid amount by state (I use the word state to keep it simple) since 2001.

I ask you the global return for the same period, otherwise I can't follow you.

Give full numbers, otherwise you are talking in vain.
Well if you seem so sure that the numbers offset the 60 million the state lost, I'm interested to know where you have them from?

Also, Im pretty sure you know that SN uses contractair every year to crew airplanes through foreign contracting agencies

example here
https://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/c ... es.285272/

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:30 Unlike you however, I wasn't dancing from hapiness with the decisions SN took and takes.
No you weren't to say the least, to the point you seem to be able to quote verbatim what was said years ago; a bit inconsistent with somebody who's not into it well beyond all rationale like you claim, don't you think?
sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:30If you were in any way not prejudiced, than you woud have seen this national drama coming
Are you now saying you were predicting the Corona pandemic which led to the grounding of pretty much every European airline? Whatever gives you the ultimate feeling of vindication, I suppose... :roll:
The fact you have to rely on a pandemic as proof of your point is indicative of just how right you only were under 'normal' conditions. :)

Anyway, have a good evening and above all: stay safe!

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Inquirer wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:51
sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:30 Unlike you however, I wasn't dancing from hapiness with the decisions SN took and takes.
No you weren't to say the least, to the point you seem to be able to quote verbatim what was said years ago; a bit inconsistent with somebody who's not into it well beyond all rationale like you claim, don't you think?
Is it now? since when is having a good memory a crime?

Inquirer wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:51
Are you now saying you were predicting the Corona pandemic which led to the grounding of pretty much every European airline? Whatever gives you the ultimate feeling of vindication, I suppose... :roll:
The fact you have to rely on a pandemic as proof of your point is indicative of just how right you only were under 'normal' conditions. :)

Anyway, have a good evening and above all: stay safe!
Im not even talking about the corona virus Inquirer. The company just posted a loss of over 40 million EUR and is in a cost restructering program, when last year they carried an absolute record number of pax. THAT is the drama and the potential bottomless pit that we are going to throw OUR money in. Even before corona it was already a national drama. I hope that common sense will prevail and the company will be restructured into a slimmed down version that serves it's core market and customers ... that would be a homegrown carrier.

finally, thanks, same to you
Last edited by sean1982 on 02 Apr 2020, 23:03, edited 1 time in total.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

One factor to take into account: in one of its annual reviews of Belgian aviation, the National Bank of Belgium reported once that if a route from Belgium flown by a foreign airline gives a job to one Belgian employee, the same route operated by a Belgian airline gives work to 4 Belgian employees.

The Belgian government should keep that in mind when deciding where to allocate rescue money.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Poiu wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 21:31
Crosswind wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 21:19
Do you have a proof of your assertion (preferably with numerical exemples, references)? Otherwise you are defaming.

In any case, question remains relevant : you must consider all the money that is earned on a given period at the State level, and compare it to the money invested.

You know what? Belgium is an easy winner on that. Just take into consideration 200 captains salaries, around 5000 euros a month per head, straight to state's pocket. 12 million € for a single year.
Careful with your accusations please, we are having a discussion between grownups, there is no right or wrong we have different ideas and try to support them with relevant arguments, this is not a mudd throwing contest.
But, of course, I do have proof and a figure: 4 million a year. (https://www.tijd.be/nieuws/onderneminge ... 01962.html)

Your 200 captains would pay the same or even more taxes if they were employed by another airline, so how does that justify State aid?
Because there probably will not be work for 200 captains and even more f/o's, flight attendants, technicians, front office employees,...

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 22:01
sean1982 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 20:20Also everyone here know that the current balance sheet of the company indeed does not matter. What does matter is the balance sheet of the company in its entire existence which has been almost negative over the whole line.
Even that doesn't matter now.
Past performances have no more relation to future results, anywhere, under the current situation: not on the upside, and not on the downside.
Such are the times now.
I am with young Sean on this one: past results are certainly no guarantee for the future, but the 130 million consolidated loss and 500 million debt won’t disappear overnight.
Before even thinking about the future you will have to sort out the past, revenue at SN is roughly 5 million a day, if you cut fuel and salary cost you end up with 3 million a day, bringing operations to a halt for three weeks costs around 60 million and SN needs 200 TO START WITH to stay alive, which means that at least 100 are needed to make up mistakes from the past.
Don’t get me wrong, Brussels need an airline, but a branch of a solid airline will bring much more to the country than a shrunk version of an airline which was on the edge of bankruptcy long before Covid 19 arrived.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Conti764 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 23:06]


Because there probably will not be work for 200 captains and even more f/o's, flight attendants, technicians, front office employees,...
But there won’t be jobs for everyone in a nationalised SN either, you’d be lucky if more than half of the jobs at SN survive Covid19.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

According to rtbf, the preferred option of the Belgian government is to step into Lufthansa proper who's owning 100% of the shares in Brussels Airlines.
The advantages are numerous: It would mean that commercially and operationally no big changes are needed in the short term, it would avoid turning the company into a Sabena clone run by the state in the long term, it would give Belgium a far bigger say in future on the strategic destiny of both Brussels Airlines and BRU airport at the same time AND it opens up the opportunity of a healthy dividend flow in future as Lufthansa is a highly profitable multinational before the crisis, thus making the deal both strategically and financially a sound plan.
The exemple of BNP-Fortis is given, now a very lucrative arrangement for our country which was co-engineered by the current FPIC CEO and strategic workgroup leader for this case, Mr. Koen Van Loo.

https://www.rtbf.be/info/economie/detai ... MrPZ-yp5OM

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

sn26567 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 23:02 One factor to take into account: in one of its annual reviews of Belgian aviation, the National Bank of Belgium reported once that if a route from Belgium flown by a foreign airline gives a job to one Belgian employee, the same route operated by a Belgian airline gives work to 4 Belgian employees.

The Belgian government should keep that in mind when deciding where to allocate rescue money.
Definitly part of the strategic considerations indeed: the mantra others are quickly going to come over and help us here in Belgium without sticking our neck out ourselves with the end result pretty much the same or better even, is dead wrong of course and widely understood after the demonstration of this failed principle in the wake of the Sabena bankruptcy, so reportedly the decision to intervene has been taken in principle by our government, it's now just a matter of finding the best possible way to formalize it between the different actors.

I read on the home page of this website the German government is now also involved via Lufthansa itself, so I wouldn't be surprised to see there are multilateral talks between our government, the German government and possibly also other governments of group airlines underway. Maybe the Austrian and/or Swiss government wants to step into the shareholding of Lufthansa too, for instance?

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Looks like Belgium is not ready to save Brussels Airlines I think this would be a BIG BIG mistake....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

I can understand that many people here don't like Brussels Airlines because they work for a competitor airline. But for some people here, it's not just I don't like them, but I really hate them". A forum is freedom of speech, sure. But then, don't call yourself "grown-up". And don't call people who disagree with you on vision or even on facts, "narrowminded".

That said - there is not one airline that is not in danger now. They will all need some kind of intervention by the government. But when taxpayers money is involved, the Belgian government has to look at the economical relevance: loss of taxes, the number of jobs that could be lost to foreign airports/foreign airlines, and safeguarding the connectivity for Belgian enterprises.

Performance from the past is irrelevant now: aviation is back where it was on 11th September 2001.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

737MAX wrote: 03 Apr 2020, 10:53
lumumba wrote: 03 Apr 2020, 10:44 Looks like Belgium is not ready to save Brussels Airlines I think this would be a BIG BIG mistake....
On the contrary, I think they are looking into a way to save them. But I guess they are not stupid to throw money into it without thinking twice.
I hope you are right...
Hasta la victoria siempre.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: 03 Apr 2020, 10:55 I can understand that many people here don't like Brussels Airlines because they work for a competitor airline. But for some people here, it's not just I don't like them, but I really hate them". A forum is freedom of speech, sure. But then, don't call yourself "grown-up". And don't call people who disagree with you on vision or even on facts, "narrowminded".

That said - there is not one airline that is not in danger now. They will all need some kind of intervention by the government. But when taxpayers money is involved, the Belgian government has to look at the economical relevance: loss of taxes, the number of jobs that could be lost to foreign airports/foreign airlines, and safeguarding the connectivity for Belgian enterprises.

Performance from the past is irrelevant now: aviation is back where it was on 11th September 2001.
Practice what you preach I would say. You still don’t understand it has nothing to do with emotion

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

A330 OO-SFG departed at 06:30 to Dakar DSS as SN9933 (repatriation flight).
André
ex Sabena #26567

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