Brussels Airlines in 2020

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FLYAIR10
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Joined: 08 Sep 2008, 22:05

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by FLYAIR10 »

SN already adjusted their schedules many times and I can feel that they are itching to postpone flights.
As I said earlier, I had bookings with Easyjet and Transavia and they were cancelled while route relaunches are being postponed week after week due to low bookings.
Well, if we may rely on last friday's mediacoverage, after the announcement by the EU and gov. that frontiers within Schengen would open as from 15th of june ,the bookings with both SN and TUI picked up and are labelled 'encouraging' to such a level that SN is even considering to add additional flights to Portugal,Spain ,Italy as compared to their original published post-corona start-up schedule.
I think many Belgians are willing to travel by plane again, provided the right corona-measures are in place and respected in airports,planes,hotels,..and that their travel-insurance/travel agency guarantees repatriation in case they become ill abroad.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

We don't know indeed what will happen with Alitalia. But we do know what has happened there. And that is what I wrote: Flanker denies, ignores or doesn't know what has happened with Alitalia the last years: ongoing losses, overdue state aid, new state aid, ongoing losses, overdue state aid, new state aid. I don't know where the counter is now - must be somewhat like 1,5 or 1,8 Bn, I think. And Flanker also denies, ignores or doesn't know that the EU Commissioner for Competition has said no to another 2 Bn 'corona' state aid.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

737MAX wrote:
07 Jun 2020, 19:28
FLYAIR10 wrote:
07 Jun 2020, 15:52


Well, if we may rely on last friday's mediacoverage, after the announcement by the EU and gov. that frontiers within Schengen would open as from 15th of june ,the bookings with both SN and TUI picked up and are labelled 'encouraging' to such a level that SN is even considering to add additional flights to Portugal,Spain ,Italy as compared to their original published post-corona start-up schedule.
I think many Belgians are willing to travel by plane again, provided the right corona-measures are in place and respected in airports,planes,hotels,..and that their travel-insurance/travel agency guarantees repatriation in case they become ill abroad.
It looks like it indeed. Bookings are way beyond expectations as from July.
That's not what I'm hearing and seeing.
Flights are being sold for very little.

Passenger wrote:
07 Jun 2020, 20:26
We don't know indeed what will happen with Alitalia. But we do know what has happened there. And that is what I wrote: Flanker denies, ignores or doesn't know what has happened with Alitalia the last years: ongoing losses, overdue state aid, new state aid, ongoing losses, overdue state aid, new state aid. I don't know where the counter is now - must be somewhat like 1,5 or 1,8 Bn, I think. And Flanker also denies, ignores or doesn't know that the EU Commissioner for Competition has said no to another 2 Bn 'corona' state aid.
When Germans get state aid it's fair, when Italians get it it's not?
I think that everyone in Europe is getting fed up of this German attitude.

FLYAIR10
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Sep 2008, 22:05

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by FLYAIR10 »

Swissport - BRU filed for bankruptcy today.
What will be the impact on the re-start of SN's operations next week?


https://www.hln.be/in-de-buurt/zaventem ... _powered=1

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

FLYAIR10 wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 10:14
Swissport - BRU filed for bankruptcy today.
What will be the impact on the re-start of SN's operations next week?


https://www.hln.be/in-de-buurt/zaventem ... _powered=1
I doubt that it will be an issue short-term for SN.
They can give Aviapartner a call, they have a lot of capacity sitting at home.
If Aviapartner doesn't work out, they still have other options:

-Push-backs, arrivals, water & waste can be handled by maintenance staff
-Load sheets can be filled by the pilots or the people who have load control experience
-Check-in and gates are already manned by their own staff
-The bridge can be handled by BRU staff
-Luggage can be handled by any SN staff willing to do it

SN has kept itself running through Swissport strikes in the past, so they'll be fine.

AZ should also be fine, they only have the Aviapartner option, although today's flights may end up cancelled.



SN's own financial situation is a bigger concern.
Sure, some funds are coming in with the new bookings, but how long will they last and how much do they already owe to suppliers and others (accounts payable) that they haven't paid yet?
Is LH giving them any funds?

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 11:50
Sure, some funds are coming in with the new bookings, but how long will they last and how much do they already owe to suppliers and others (accounts payable) that they haven't paid yet?
Is LH giving them any funds?
This morning, Swissport filed for bankruptcy. A bit later, Lagardere Travel Retail announced they're axing 180 jobs at their tax free shops at BRU and CRL.

How long will the Belgian federal minister Alexander De Croo and the Belgian trade unions continue with their power play against Lufthansa? When will they finally conclude that THEY have to secure so many jobs at both Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport?
When will they issue a state guarantee for a substantial part of the loan that Brussels Airlines needs to restart?

FLYAIR10
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by FLYAIR10 »

by Passenger » 08 Jun 2020, 15:18
Flanker2 wrote: ↑
08 Jun 2020, 11:50
Sure, some funds are coming in with the new bookings, but how long will they last and how much do they already owe to suppliers and others (accounts payable) that they haven't paid yet?
Is LH giving them any funds?
This morning, Swissport filed for bankruptcy. A bit later, Lagardere Travel Retail announced they're axing 180 jobs at their tax free shops at BRU and CRL.

How long will the Belgian federal minister Alexander De Croo and the Belgian trade unions continue with their power play against Lufthansa? When will they finally conclude that THEY have to secure so many jobs at both Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport?
When will they issue a state guarantee for a substantial part of the loan that Brussels Airlines needs to restart?
Today a deal was announced for Austrian airlines.
Including:
* 450 Million Eur coming from the Austrian state (300 million as bankguarantee for a loan and 150 million as direct support)
*Austrian government steps into the holding company above Austrian airlines and can appoint 2 members in the board of directors
*LH to confirm the name Austrian airlines will be kept, HQ stays in Vienna for at least 10 years and investments to be made in less polluting planes(CO2)
* LH will also invest another 150 million in the airline.

If this is possible in Austria, I guess something similar could be on the table for Brussels airlines in Belgium aswell. This seems to be the most pragamatic solution in the given circumstances for LH and the Belgian stakeholders involved,no?

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Passenger wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 15:18
Flanker2 wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 11:50
Sure, some funds are coming in with the new bookings, but how long will they last and how much do they already owe to suppliers and others (accounts payable) that they haven't paid yet?
Is LH giving them any funds?
This morning, Swissport filed for bankruptcy. A bit later, Lagardere Travel Retail announced they're axing 180 jobs at their tax free shops at BRU and CRL.

How long will the Belgian federal minister Alexander De Croo and the Belgian trade unions continue with their power play against Lufthansa? When will they finally conclude that THEY have to secure so many jobs at both Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport?
When will they issue a state guarantee for a substantial part of the loan that Brussels Airlines needs to restart?
The Belgian government has already made a reasonable offer, so it's up to Lufthansa to decide to take it.
This is how governments work normally. Governments do not and should not negotiate with each and every corporation to accommodate each and every of their requests.
The Belgian government has already given a lot to LH, so now is the time for LH to show that they did not bite more than they can chew and that they're committed to SN.

Eventually LH will have to make a decision.
Even if they accept the Belgian state aid, they will have to repay it and take hundreds of millions in losses for the next years.
The same goes for all their units which will amount to consolidated losses of billions.
If you ask me, it's the beginning of the end for Europe's largest aviation group.

I also remind you that Swissport's largest customer was SN.
Thus, it's not improbable to consider that Swissport may have been taken down by some unpaid bills of their largest customer SN, which itself may not have been able to pay because its parent company did not recapitalize it or agree to the terms of the state aid.
So actually, LH may be indirectly responsible for Swissport's demise.
This is speculation of course, I don't know which bills SN has paid and which it hasn't.

Flanker2
Posts: 1704
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

FLYAIR10 wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 16:01
by Passenger » 08 Jun 2020, 15:18
Flanker2 wrote: ↑
08 Jun 2020, 11:50
Sure, some funds are coming in with the new bookings, but how long will they last and how much do they already owe to suppliers and others (accounts payable) that they haven't paid yet?
Is LH giving them any funds?
This morning, Swissport filed for bankruptcy. A bit later, Lagardere Travel Retail announced they're axing 180 jobs at their tax free shops at BRU and CRL.

How long will the Belgian federal minister Alexander De Croo and the Belgian trade unions continue with their power play against Lufthansa? When will they finally conclude that THEY have to secure so many jobs at both Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport?
When will they issue a state guarantee for a substantial part of the loan that Brussels Airlines needs to restart?
Today a deal was announced for Austrian airlines.
Including:
* 450 Million Eur coming from the Austrian state (300 million as bankguarantee for a loan and 150 million as direct support)
*Austrian government steps into the holding company above Austrian airlines and can appoint 2 members in the board of directors
*LH to confirm the name Austrian airlines will be kept, HQ stays in Vienna for at least 10 years and investments to be made in less polluting planes(CO2)
* LH will also invest another 150 million in the airline.

If this is possible in Austria, I guess something similar could be on the table for Brussels airlines in Belgium aswell. This seems to be the most pragamatic solution in the given circumstances for LH and the Belgian stakeholders involved,no?
Although I don't know the details of the OS deal yet, if true that looks like a full surrender by Spohr.
While a similar solution would be reasonable for SN, I don't know how committed Spohr is to SN.
Remember that this is a guy who tried to rebrand SN into EW just a year ago and expects free money from the Belgian government the same day he slashed 1000 jobs.
In addition, I'm not sure how long SN (or OS for that matter) can be kept on life support with 390 Millions in funds, especially if they start flying routes at a loss just to stay relevant. I just don't know and probably no one knows.



I don't think that the restart of flights next week should be a reason to get hasty for the government, considering the fact that the flights are not economically relevant to Belgium.
If I were SN and I had to restart flights, I would be sending the smallest aircraft and restart Africa operations first + essential feeding like CDG, LHR and MAN.
A319's to Africa, with a fuel stop if the load justifies it.
If the flight has a good load, you stil have the option to upgrade to A320 and then later you can break the covers on the A330's.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

FLYAIR10 wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 16:01
Today a deal was announced for Austrian airlines.
Including:
* 450 Million Eur coming from the Austrian state (300 million as bankguarantee for a loan and 150 million as direct support)
*Austrian government steps into the holding company above Austrian airlines and can appoint 2 members in the board of directors
*LH to confirm the name Austrian airlines will be kept, HQ stays in Vienna for at least 10 years and investments to be made in less polluting planes(CO2)
* LH will also invest another 150 million in the airline.
And also:
* The close to 7,000 employees will make an accumulated crisis contribution of about EUR 300 million by taking salary cuts.
* The more than 1,000 business partners and suppliers of Austrian Airlines will also make a substantial contribution. Contract volume could be reduced by more than EUR 150 million

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Av24.be
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Av24.be »

Another gentle reminder to respect each other and the forum rules ==> www.aviation24.be/rules

Please no politics!

Kapitein
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Kapitein »

Flanker2 wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 11:50
FLYAIR10 wrote:
08 Jun 2020, 10:14
Swissport - BRU filed for bankruptcy today.
What will be the impact on the re-start of SN's operations next week?


https://www.hln.be/in-de-buurt/zaventem ... _powered=1

-The bridge can be handled by BRU staff
I’m afraid that’s not allowed.
Only handlers are allowed to put or pullaway the boardingbridge from a aircraft

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

You just need to pass the certification that it, temporarly they can simply do not use them.

flightlover
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by flightlover »

crew1990 wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 19:49
You just need to pass the certification that it, temporarly they can simply do not use them.
And the DGLV has to allow an exemption on the normal regulation that only handlers can do these kind of operations.

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

flightlover wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 20:03
crew1990 wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 19:49
You just need to pass the certification that it, temporarly they can simply do not use them.
And the DGLV has to allow an exemption on the normal regulation that only handlers can do these kind of operations.
If I'm not mistaken, I read somewhere that Brussels Airlines has this status of handlers inherited from Virgin Express, if someone can confirm

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Actually select BRU staff, so people working for the airport, such as airport inspection, facility technical staff, are trained and authorised to operate the bridge.
For a few flights per day, they can operate the bridge, it's not like they are swamped with work.

Years ago SN staff were not authorised nor trained as they had a handler, I don't know if that has or will change.

If needed, SN can hire a few ex-Swissport red caps who have been doing it until a few days ago, no big deal.


The real question is whether SN will be able to restart its flight schedule with its bank accounts drying up.
Remember that they supposedly only had funds to last until the end of May.
Staff are genuinely worried that the end is near.

Perhaps the Lufthansa-clan can enlighten us on what Lufthansa is doing to make this restart happen?
I think that SN staff and those of us who are following this will be more thankful for Lufthansa if you can show that LH is doing the heavy lifting. Pretty sure that it will be more convincing than the childish finger-pointing towards the Belgian government.

Kapitein
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Kapitein »

Flanker2 wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 20:33
Actually select BRU staff, so people working for the airport, such as airport inspection, facility technical staff, are trained and authorised to operate the bridge.
For a few flights per day, they can operate the bridge, it's not like they are swamped with work.

The staff that is trained from BRU are only allowed to operate the bridge to put them in safetyposition. They are not allowed to do it when a aircraft arrives or departs. Because that is part of the “handling a aircraft” part and since BRU hasn’t a handling license we are not allowed.
Maintenance personel is a different story. But again, they aren’t allowed to do it on arriving or departing flights as handling. Only as technical has issues occured.

flightlover
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by flightlover »

Kapitein wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 21:29
Flanker2 wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 20:33
Actually select BRU staff, so people working for the airport, such as airport inspection, facility technical staff, are trained and authorised to operate the bridge.
For a few flights per day, they can operate the bridge, it's not like they are swamped with work.

The staff that is trained from BRU are only allowed to operate the bridge to put them in safetyposition. They are not allowed to do it when a aircraft arrives or departs. Because that is part of the “handling a aircraft” part and since BRU hasn’t a handling license we are not allowed.
Maintenance personel is a different story. But again, they aren’t allowed to do it on arriving or departing flights as handling. Only as technical has issues occured.
Btw, the bridges rule is not the only one that obstructs turnarounds as f.e. pushback and headset operations are also exclusive for the handling companies during flight handling. The fact that planes could depart during the strikes is testament that at least some trained handlers where working at that moment.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

flightlover wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 23:21
Kapitein wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 21:29
Flanker2 wrote:
09 Jun 2020, 20:33
Actually select BRU staff, so people working for the airport, such as airport inspection, facility technical staff, are trained and authorised to operate the bridge.
For a few flights per day, they can operate the bridge, it's not like they are swamped with work.

The staff that is trained from BRU are only allowed to operate the bridge to put them in safetyposition. They are not allowed to do it when a aircraft arrives or departs. Because that is part of the “handling a aircraft” part and since BRU hasn’t a handling license we are not allowed.
Maintenance personel is a different story. But again, they aren’t allowed to do it on arriving or departing flights as handling. Only as technical has issues occured.
Btw, the bridges rule is not the only one that obstructs turnarounds as f.e. pushback and headset operations are also exclusive for the handling companies during flight handling. The fact that planes could depart during the strikes is testament that at least some trained handlers where working at that moment.
In theory that is correct but the BCAA and the airport can temporarily grant waivers in exceptional circumstances such as when a handling company goes bust. You can get waivers for about anything, as long as you accept the associated risk and liability and as long as proper operating procedures are followed. I can imagine for instance that SN would have to waive liability for damages to its aircraft if the bridge is operated by BRU airport staff, or accept liability for damages on the bridge if it is operated by its own staff.

SN maintenance staff have done push-backs before during strikes, the bridge was a bit trickier as special training was required and they never got around to forcing BRU to train them.

Airlines are allowed to (temporarily) do handling tasks in-house when a handling company is in breach of the handling agreement.


We can discuss this ad nauseam but I don't feel that this little detail is very relevant because we are at an edge-of-the-cliff moment.
We are discussing how to paint the front door of a house that may be on its way to being demolished.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Brussels Airlines' English language call center, will try to twist your request for refunds on flights that SN cancelled, making it look like you are requesting to cancel, so that they only need to refund you the taxes "in accordance with the fare policy."

Are Brussels Airlines aware that their English language call center is doing this?
Who is ordering them to do this?



The media have also caught wind of the ongoing shady practices of Belgian airlines:

https://www.hln.be/de-krant/het-regent- ... ~a593f671/

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