Brussels Airlines in 2020

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lumumba
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Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

The salary in airlines industry will go down for sure because competition becomes harder and harder if you don't want to work for less change to another job!
On the other hand it was never so cheap to fly.
I think it will be like that in a lot of other industries but these are the rules of capitalism and liberal rules.

It's very strange what's happening know because if we had to follow the EU rules all of the nations airlines would be gone by now in that I'm totally agree with the boss of Ryanair what's happening know is very unfair!
Last edited by lumumba on 28 May 2020, 14:29, edited 1 time in total.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Matt
Posts: 133
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Matt »

This is an average salary for a teacher in upper secondary education ..
My friends in upper secondary education would be VERY happy with this. Fake news. I also got an offer, 2300 (!) as a physics/maths teacher in 5th and 6th grade.

BUT that's off topic.
nordikcam wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:55
737MAX wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:20
Do people here seriously believe Germany would let Lufthansa go bust? :?
Hold me back or I’m making a mistake...
I also strongly doubt this

PttU
Posts: 379
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by PttU »

nordikcam wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:53
b.lufthansa wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:33
crew1990 wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:16


I'm not flying anymore at the moment as i'm studying, but when I was flying full time on the long haul as a cabin crew, I was reaching almost each month 3000 euros. I really would like to know what is you definition of "poor wages and working condition" in your humble opinion. I flown for 4 different airlines, Ryanair, Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium and Germania and I can tell you that Brussels Airlines was definitely my best experience.
3000 euros or not, the cabin crew's netto salary remains very low. Try being Pregnant, longterm ill or retired ? You get a wage simply below average.
This is an average salary for a teacher in upper secondary education ..
Gross or net? Don't mix those up in discussions as they make a big difference.

nordikcam
Posts: 1067
Joined: 24 Aug 2008, 10:22
Location: Uccle

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

Matt wrote:
28 May 2020, 14:06
This is an average salary for a teacher in upper secondary education ..
My friends in upper secondary education would be VERY happy with this. Fake news. I also got an offer, 2300 (!) as a physics/maths teacher in 5th and 6th grade.

BUT that's off topic.
I said "upper secondary"...I confirm...It depends how old is the teacher ...he will finish in French Community between 3000 and 3200 € net...

Source : http://www.enseignement.be/index.php?pa ... 0&ba_id=23

Darjeeling
Posts: 255
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 10:13

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Darjeeling »

crew1990 wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:16
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:01
Imho, CS's plan B (which could actually be his plan A) is to let go bust both LH ans SN (and OS ?) and replace LH's and SN's intra-European flights by EW.
Now, what about the intercontinental flights ? New collective agreement, inferior remuneration and working conditions. I doubt trade unions would oppose it. When sn brussels airlines was created with rather poor wages and working conditions, there were enough candidates for these jobs. There is a precedent. Correct me, if I am wrong.
I'm not flying anymore at the moment as i'm studying, but when I was flying full time on the long haul as a cabin crew, I was reaching almost each month 3000 euros. I really would like to know what is you definition of "poor wages and working condition" in your humble opinion. I flown for 4 different airlines, Ryanair, Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium and Germania and I can tell you that Brussels Airlines was definitely my best experience.
From what I know and HAVE SEEN from a relative working there with 20 years of seniority:
3.000€ is when you fly 5-6 long-hauls and two medium-hauls layover in one month and you have an 100% contract with high seniority. And it means roughly 90 block-hours a month. You just can't fly like this more than three consecutive months, or you'll face a health and fatigue issue. But what is the fixed salary in those 3.000€ ? Maximum 1.300€ netto. The rest is night-stop allowances and flight hours per diems.
Some (even senior) cabin crew fall to 600€ netto a month in case of long-time illness, pregnancy, etc... The conditions are barely unacceptable as of now. There is NO way the unions will accept what's currently on the table, now way. Some will prefer the company to go bust than accepting those middle-age conditions. The 45% wage reduction coming from the pilot was just a trick and bluffing tactics to try and trap the management in front of the Belgian media and Lufthansa attention. Because don't forget that the pilot's chapter hasn't yet been faced by SN's management, and it's theiir biggest cliff...

Darjeeling
Posts: 255
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 10:13

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Darjeeling »

Darjeeling wrote:
28 May 2020, 15:49
Darjeeling wrote:
28 May 2020, 15:48
crew1990 wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:16


I'm not flying anymore at the moment as i'm studying, but when I was flying full time on the long haul as a cabin crew, I was reaching almost each month 3000 euros. I really would like to know what is you definition of "poor wages and working condition" in your humble opinion. I flown for 4 different airlines, Ryanair, Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium and Germania and I can tell you that Brussels Airlines was definitely my best experience.
From what I know and HAVE SEEN from a relative working there with 20 years of seniority:
3.000€ is when you fly 5-6 long-hauls and two medium-hauls layover in one month and you have an 100% contract with high seniority. And it means roughly 90 block-hours a month. You just can't fly like this more than three consecutive months, or you'll face a health and fatigue issue. But what is the fixed salary in those 3.000€ ? Maximum 1.300€ netto. The rest is night-stop allowances and flight hours per diems.
Some (even senior) cabin crew fall to 600€ netto a month in case of long-time illness, pregnancy, etc... The conditions are barely acceptable as of now. There is NO way the unions will accept what's currently on the table, no way. Some will prefer the company to go bust than accepting those middle-age conditions. The 45% wage reduction coming from the pilots was just a trick and bluffing tactics to try and trap the management in front of the Belgian media and Lufthansa attention. Because don't forget that the pilot's chapter hasn't yet been faced by SN's management, and it's their biggest cliff...
Last edited by Darjeeling on 28 May 2020, 15:52, edited 1 time in total.

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lumumba
Posts: 1797
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Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Darjeeling wrote:
28 May 2020, 15:50
Darjeeling wrote:
28 May 2020, 15:49
Darjeeling wrote:
28 May 2020, 15:48
From what I know and HAVE SEEN from a relative working there with 20 years of seniority:
3.000€ is when you fly 5-6 long-hauls and two medium-hauls layover in one month and you have an 100% contract with high seniority. And it means roughly 90 block-hours a month. You just can't fly like this more than three consecutive months, or you'll face a health and fatigue issue. But what is the fixed salary in those 3.000€ ? Maximum 1.300€ netto. The rest is night-stop allowances and flight hours per diems.
Some (even senior) cabin crew fall to 600€ netto a month in case of long-time illness, pregnancy, etc... The conditions are barely acceptable as of now. There is NO way the unions will accept what's currently on the table, no way. Some will prefer the company to go bust than accepting those middle-age conditions. The 45% wage reduction coming from the pilots was just a trick and bluffing tactics to try and trap the management in front of the Belgian media and Lufthansa attention. Because don't forget that the pilot's chapter hasn't yet been faced by SN's management, and it's their biggest cliff...
That's why it's maybe better to go bust and to start over with very competitive expenses.
What do you think?
Will give maybe the opportunity for young people..
Are employees gaining much less with Ryanair if yes than to be competitive you have to go to the same level or I'm missing something?
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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lumumba
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Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

737MAX wrote:
28 May 2020, 18:04
lumumba wrote:
28 May 2020, 16:09

That's why it's maybe better to go bust and to start over with very competitive expenses.
What do you think?
Will give maybe the opportunity for young people..
Are employees gaining much less with Ryanair if yes than to be competitive you have to go to the same level or I'm missing something?
I don't know whether I should cry, laugh or vomit when I read such things. Could you give me the contact details of your employer? I'd like to suggest him to cut your salary by 30% while increasing your productivity. Or to kick you out in order to give a "chance to young people"...
Simply disgusting.

If people get fired, young people will be the ones to suffer first !
Nowadays even highly experienced people are looking for a new job, and at any cost.

The basic salary of SN cabin crew is low. Lower than the average, even in Belgium. Their relatively high netto salary is due to the per diems they receive etc... but, that is already over, since SN wants to reduce the nightstops as much as possible.

Frankly, it's just disgusting to read such things. The employees are not the ones responsible for poor management and poor decisions made within their company. Have you already forgotten SN pilots proposed to work part-time to avoid massive layoffs ? What else do you want? Ask them to pay in order to fly from time to time?

Some groups have made tons of money in the past few years; now the ones to suffer all over the place are employees. And no, not just during the corona crisis; what will be lost today will be for a long time!

---

Btw; the costs of pilots at SN have been compared with Ryanair pilots. They are at approx the same level. And I'm talking about *costs*, not about netto income. In some countries, Ryanair pilots may much less taxes and therefore earn more than at SN.
I understand your reaction I'm not working in the Aviation business but sure if the salary in any way is lower by your competitors you will have to follow and this is true in my business also.

So I just try to understand why Ryanair is making 900 million profit and can survive without help?

For me no problem I don't believe in free market and you don't need to convince me that there was a lot of profit in some other industries and it's all vanishing with the auctioneers and not to the employees.

But I'm sure you are agree with this liberal and capitalist system so please don't CRY after when you will have to earn less because that's the system!
Last edited by lumumba on 28 May 2020, 20:48, edited 1 time in total.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Matt
Posts: 133
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Matt »

nordikcam wrote:
28 May 2020, 14:47
Matt wrote:
28 May 2020, 14:06
This is an average salary for a teacher in upper secondary education ..
My friends in upper secondary education would be VERY happy with this. Fake news. I also got an offer, 2300 (!) as a physics/maths teacher in 5th and 6th grade.

BUT that's off topic.
I said "upper secondary"...I confirm...It depends how old is the teacher ...he will finish in French Community between 3000 and 3200 € net...

Source : http://www.enseignement.be/index.php?pa ... 0&ba_id=23
They only talk about bruto... before taxes... :roll:

crew1990
Posts: 1124
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

My seniority wasn't that high, I started to work there in 2014, I never had less than 2800 'its not the bruto, it is what i actually had in my bank account at the end of the month, of course a big part of this salary was due to the perdiems but still it's not bad at all even on the European sector I always had like 2400€ in my bank account. One day I was speaking with other crew of Air France in Yaounde and we are actually better paid here, even if working for Air France has other asset, butnnot in term of salary, for cabin crew better work for SN.

At Germania I was forever abroad with no life for at the end of the month with all the perdiems I had in my bank account 1300€, I got more than the double with Brussels Airlines, with a much better quality of life. Steady roster, decent rest between duties, etc.

When I was at Ryanair, I had around 1700€ but I was forced to live abroad (BGY in my case) and you are talking about being pregnant or something... well as long as you are employed by workforce company you had 0€ as you was only paid while flying.

At the last referencing Brussels Airlines was on 12th position for french speaker and 9th position for the best employer to work for. Are you really surprised? Personnaly I'm an insider and I'm not. The only negative point is that you need to fight to "exist" at Brussels Airlines when you are french speaker, but that's another topic.

nordikcam
Posts: 1067
Joined: 24 Aug 2008, 10:22
Location: Uccle

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

Matt wrote:
28 May 2020, 19:43
They only talk about bruto... before taxes... :roll:
He is no worse deaf than the one who does not want to hear ... no problem with that. 5600 € rough in our country make between 3000 and 3200 net what I was talking about ... without nuance it is true. Bar point.

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Conti764
Posts: 1775
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

lumumba wrote:
28 May 2020, 18:17
737MAX wrote:
28 May 2020, 18:04
lumumba wrote:
28 May 2020, 16:09

That's why it's maybe better to go bust and to start over with very competitive expenses.
What do you think?
Will give maybe the opportunity for young people..
Are employees gaining much less with Ryanair if yes than to be competitive you have to go to the same level or I'm missing something?
I don't know whether I should cry, laugh or vomit when I read such things. Could you give me the contact details of your employer? I'd like to suggest him to cut your salary by 30% while increasing your productivity. Or to kick you out in order to give a "chance to young people"...
Simply disgusting.

If people get fired, young people will be the ones to suffer first !
Nowadays even highly experienced people are looking for a new job, and at any cost.

The basic salary of SN cabin crew is low. Lower than the average, even in Belgium. Their relatively high netto salary is due to the per diems they receive etc... but, that is already over, since SN wants to reduce the nightstops as much as possible.

Frankly, it's just disgusting to read such things. The employees are not the ones responsible for poor management and poor decisions made within their company. Have you already forgotten SN pilots proposed to work part-time to avoid massive layoffs ? What else do you want? Ask them to pay in order to fly from time to time?

Some groups have made tons of money in the past few years; now the ones to suffer all over the place are employees. And no, not just during the corona crisis; what will be lost today will be for a long time!

---

Btw; the costs of pilots at SN have been compared with Ryanair pilots. They are at approx the same level. And I'm talking about *costs*, not about netto income. In some countries, Ryanair pilots may much less taxes and therefore earn more than at SN.
I understand your reaction I'm not working in the Aviation business but sure if the salary in any way is lower by your competitors you will have to follow and this is true in my business also.

So I just try to understand why Ryanair is making 900 million profit and can survive without help?

For me no problem I don't believe in free market and you don't need to convince me that there was a lot of profit in some other industries and it's all vanishing with the auctioneers and not to the employees.

But I'm sure you are agree with this liberal and capitalist system so please don't CRY after when you will have to earn less because that's the system!
Ryanair has a very specific business model, apart from staff.

For example, they got a very nice deal from Boeing for their huge batch of 738's after putting Boeing and Airbus up against each other. At some point Airbus refused to go lower and Boeing got the deal. Ryanair got dirt cheap but brand new and fuel efficient Boeings which they sold off again right before very costly heavy maintenance.

Secondly, apart from select destinations Ryanair - especially in the phenomenal growth period - flew to secondary airports, rather far away from the city it served but branded with a clear and obvious link to that city. And they did so by often negociating sweet deals with those airports.

Ryanair saved on airport fees by equipping all of their cheap Boeings with own stairs, they saved on overhead costs and got paid by third parties to advertise on both their websites and in their planes and by having those third parties to pay fees for every deal they got through the Ryanair website. And if I'm.not mistaken the entire turnaround inside of a plane is done by cabin crew.

Ryanair offers no connectivity so doesn't need to pay for stranded pax. You rarely have to connect on FR flights since they have their hundreds of dirt cheap Boeings flying city pairs.

Ryanair is the (European) champion in its class through a very sound business case. Airlines that wish to position themselves higher up the ladder cannot afford the same business case hence the lower margins.

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lumumba
Posts: 1797
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Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Conti764 wrote:
28 May 2020, 21:42
lumumba wrote:
28 May 2020, 18:17
737MAX wrote:
28 May 2020, 18:04


I don't know whether I should cry, laugh or vomit when I read such things. Could you give me the contact details of your employer? I'd like to suggest him to cut your salary by 30% while increasing your productivity. Or to kick you out in order to give a "chance to young people"...
Simply disgusting.

If people get fired, young people will be the ones to suffer first !
Nowadays even highly experienced people are looking for a new job, and at any cost.

The basic salary of SN cabin crew is low. Lower than the average, even in Belgium. Their relatively high netto salary is due to the per diems they receive etc... but, that is already over, since SN wants to reduce the nightstops as much as possible.

Frankly, it's just disgusting to read such things. The employees are not the ones responsible for poor management and poor decisions made within their company. Have you already forgotten SN pilots proposed to work part-time to avoid massive layoffs ? What else do you want? Ask them to pay in order to fly from time to time?

Some groups have made tons of money in the past few years; now the ones to suffer all over the place are employees. And no, not just during the corona crisis; what will be lost today will be for a long time!

---

Btw; the costs of pilots at SN have been compared with Ryanair pilots. They are at approx the same level. And I'm talking about *costs*, not about netto income. In some countries, Ryanair pilots may much less taxes and therefore earn more than at SN.
I understand your reaction I'm not working in the Aviation business but sure if the salary in any way is lower by your competitors you will have to follow and this is true in my business also.

So I just try to understand why Ryanair is making 900 million profit and can survive without help?

For me no problem I don't believe in free market and you don't need to convince me that there was a lot of profit in some other industries and it's all vanishing with the auctioneers and not to the employees.

But I'm sure you are agree with this liberal and capitalist system so please don't CRY after when you will have to earn less because that's the system!
Ryanair has a very specific business model, apart from staff.

For example, they got a very nice deal from Boeing for their huge batch of 738's after putting Boeing and Airbus up against each other. At some point Airbus refused to go lower and Boeing got the deal. Ryanair got dirt cheap but brand new and fuel efficient Boeings which they sold off again right before very costly heavy maintenance.

Secondly, apart from select destinations Ryanair - especially in the phenomenal growth period - flew to secondary airports, rather far away from the city it served but branded with a clear and obvious link to that city. And they did so by often negociating sweet deals with those airports.

Ryanair saved on airport fees by equipping all of their cheap Boeings with own stairs, they saved on overhead costs and got paid by third parties to advertise on both their websites and in their planes and by having those third parties to pay fees for every deal they got through the Ryanair website. And if I'm.not mistaken the entire turnaround inside of a plane is done by cabin crew.

Ryanair offers no connectivity so doesn't need to pay for stranded pax. You rarely have to connect on FR flights since they have their hundreds of dirt cheap Boeings flying city pairs.

Ryanair is the (European) champion in its class through a very sound business case. Airlines that wish to position themselves higher up the ladder cannot afford the same business case hence the lower margins.
I understand it was already discussed before for the Boeing deal every big company could do it Lufthansa also, here no problem.

But about there business model or the way they behave, if it works and people fly with them because that's what happening people take them they just complain when they are f****d.
I see this model and there rules has the best one.

Or the EU imposes clear rules with clear worker protections passengers protections etc..and then we could have a healthy competition.

Sure it would be more expensive to fly, in addition we should add a gas tax to be fair to other transport possibility.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Atlantis
Posts: 4466
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

OK, some news between the posts how much everybody is earning....

According to the latest, the deal or solution for SN is quite near.

Speaking about the LH-group, so not only about SN, there is a thought or proposal to sell one of the members of the group or to bring that one to the stock market.

To sell one of the members is highly doubtful as nobody is eager now to buy an other airline

Jetter
Posts: 475
Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Atlantis wrote:
28 May 2020, 22:55
Speaking about the LH-group, so not only about SN, there is a thought or proposal to sell one of the members of the group or to bring that one to the stock market.

To sell one of the members is highly doubtful as nobody is eager now to buy an other airline
Interesting news. The same applies to the stock market: the value of SN or OS would be almost 0. LX might be worth something though, for a buyer or on the stock market.

Bracebrace
Posts: 231
Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

lumumba wrote:
28 May 2020, 18:17
I understand your reaction I'm not working in the Aviation business but sure if the salary in any way is lower by your competitors you will have to follow and this is true in my business also.
Only partially true. Salary is part of the question how much you prefer to keep experience in your company, or you become an "experience builder" company. Once the pilots have 500-1000 hrs, they will look elsewhere and leave immediatly. If you want to grow, you are stuck, because everybody in aviation will be on the same wave and want to grow. And as long as Air France and KLM are hiring, these companies will steal your people in no time.

Ryanair has well managed that problem for years by making pilots pay initially for their training, but creating a good "upgrade potential" on a very short term. But in the longer term it didn't help at all. Every pilot in Ryanair knew the pilot shortage problem last couple of years and how even Ryanair was hoping for a crisis to happen as even their "ready for upgrade" pilots were running away like crazy. <If people ready for left seat leave your company, you have a big problem. Ryanair needed a crisis to counter this and got it (or did all forum members already forget all the cancelled Ryanair flights last two years?)

So all the long term growth plans the forum members discuss won't be possible. The young guys will want to grow... in another company and leave at the very first opportunity. If you retire the old guys or see them leave to make some money in China... you can have all these plans, but no pilot in your company will be legally ready to make it happen. This has been reality in many companies last two years.
Last edited by Bracebrace on 29 May 2020, 13:31, edited 7 times in total.

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RoMax
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Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

Is there a proper source for the rumour of LH Group (partially) selling a member? - Was it considered that this might not be an airline member of the group? For years now LHG has been looking at its options for LSG and LH Technik - both being units requiring significant investment to stay at the top of the game while not being the core business of LHG. The sales proces of LSG already started like 2 years ago or so, with a deal made for LSG Europe being sold to Gategroup last year (the remaining global parts of LSG would follow later in 2nd sales wave).
For LH Technik LHG has hinted several times at the option to bring them to the stock market (or at least partially).

If this is about LHT it's not a new topic at all, at most the context changed and even intensified LHG's reasons for selling off both units: LHG does not have the money to keep investing in LSG and LHT while also funding its core airline business requiring many billions over the next years for fleet renewal (even more so if Germany refuses LH to delay Airbus deliveries xp ).

Shonix
Posts: 79
Joined: 31 Jan 2018, 12:06

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.

sean1982
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Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Shonix wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:35
I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.
I have heard this too. Starting First officers in FR earn this. Cabin crew at BA have about 800-900EUR less then that. That is quite an out of proportion wage if you ask me.

Poiu
Posts: 842
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Shonix wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:35
I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.
Up to half of this are allowances, ie when away from Brussels crew get bed and breakfast paid by the company and an allowance which covers the other meals. Civil engineers get a company car, fuel card, mobile phone, meal tickets,....

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