Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Matt
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Matt »

Yuqu12 wrote:
27 May 2020, 09:21
According to Brussels Airlines on LinkedIn, they create 50.000 direct and indirect jobs.
well, a very poor hand to play poker indeed.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

brabel wrote:
26 May 2020, 10:46
Any news about the negotiations?
Aren't they out of money end of this week?
When can we expect some news?
Recovery: Brussels Airlines rescue plan clashes with European Commission

Belgium's plan to save Brussels Airlines does not meet the requirements of strict European state aid rules, according to initial contacts between Belgian authorities and the European Commission, newspapers L'Echo and De Tijd report Wednesday.

https://translate.google.fr/translate?h ... 3D10509570

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

And the LH plan ? And the AF-KL plan ?
Have the German, French and Dutch governments given guarantees to the EU that the loan would be repaid after 6 years I believe?
I suppose that SN or the Belgian Government are not alone in this relation with the conditions of the EU.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

nordikcam wrote:
27 May 2020, 11:15
And the LH plan ? And the AF-KL plan ?
Have the German, French and Dutch governments given guarantees to the EU that the loan would be repaid after 6 years I believe?
I suppose that SN or the Belgian Government are not alone in this relation with the conditions of the EU.
Exactly. To loan to LH is 9 billion. The loan to AF/KL is a bit less but still very high.
For SN we speak only about 290 million which is peanuts. The longer, the more bad news

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

737MAX wrote:
27 May 2020, 11:38
LH + AF + KL have been approved by the EC, AFAIK.
I don't think so: I still haven't seen the seal of approval on the EU Commission website. For neither one.

With regard to KLM, there aren't even figures on the table: the airline is still discussing with Dutch banks.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Stij »

In the end it will be as always in the EU...

The bigger the country, the more power, the less they care about the EU, the bigger the bailout.

Cheers,

Stij

Shonix
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

Stij wrote:
27 May 2020, 13:37
In the end it will be as always in the EU...

The bigger the country, the more power, the less they care about the EU, the bigger the bailout.

Cheers,

Stij
With a strong help of the lobbyists...

Shonix
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

Flanker2 wrote:
26 May 2020, 16:09
Passenger wrote:
26 May 2020, 12:27
brabel wrote:
26 May 2020, 10:46
Aren't they out of money end of this week?
Brussels Airlines has denied that rumour. It was based upon a leak (to Belga) of one of the many documents that were filed on 12th May with the Belgian Social Security Authority. The document was taken out of its content, of course.

brabel wrote:
26 May 2020, 10:46
Any news about the negotiations?
Brussels Airlines announced Collective Dismissals on 12th May, so 'Wet Renault/Loi Renault' now applies. We're now in the first 30 days of 'Renault': information & consultation. The trade unions rejected the Collective Dismissals and they have replied with 100 questions. Management now legally must reply to all of them, so we won't hear from those negotiations before 12th June, I assume.

In between the above , there is the ongoing discussion about conditions for the state aid. The longer it takes, the higher the risk that Lufthansa leaves the table.
So what if LH leaves the table?

A. They will downsize SN, spend minimal amounts of their own money to keep key routes, but open room for competitors or a new Belgian flag carrier.
B. They will not downsize SN, spend more of their own money to keep it afloat.
C. Let it go bankrupt and let it get sold to a competitor or the Belgian State.

Any other scenario that I'm missing?
In any case, I don't see any urgency for the government to intervene in any of the scenario's.

Why would the Belgian State intervene in a foreign-owned business when it has sufficient liquidities to handle it themselves, and domestic companies like AB Inbev and small businesses are in a lot of trouble and barely getting any aid?

LH is playing strip poker, already naked and bluffing with a poor hand.
If we go for scenario C, why not work hand in hand with Air Belgium and build up a new flag carrier? If not mistaken this was mentioned early May in L'Echo, also mentioning a potential association with TUI. Why wouldn't it be possible?

Edit: Prime Minister Sophie Wilmes stated in a letter to CS "Nous continuons de croire que la position de Brussels Airlines dans le groupe Lufthansa est la meilleure garantie pour l'avenir." Again, why?
Last edited by Shonix on 27 May 2020, 14:16, edited 1 time in total.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

rwandan-flyer wrote:
27 May 2020, 11:06

Recovery: Brussels Airlines rescue plan clashes with European Commission

Belgium's plan to save Brussels Airlines does not meet the requirements of strict European state aid rules, according to initial contacts between Belgian authorities and the European Commission, newspapers L'Echo and De Tijd report Wednesday.

https://translate.google.fr/translate?h ... 3D10509570
How could the Brussels Airlines rescue plan clash with the European Commission when there isn't any signed rescue plan yet?
André
ex Sabena #26567

DannyVDB
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by DannyVDB »

Because they first check with the EU before finalizing, signing it, etc. Logic no, no time to waste ...

There are also comments to the plan for LH (they need to drop some slots or so) ...

D

lucas
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lucas »

Riadh Bahri, aviation watcher for VRT says that the news that the EU is being difficult about the rescue plan is fake. There have not yet been talks between SN and the EU. Also the news that Lufthansa would have agreed with the Belgian governement about the influence of the state is not true. Someone is leaking parts of stories that are not true.

https://twitter.com/Riadh_B/status/1265601113484599297

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Guillermo
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Guillermo »

Have just grabbed some highlights from Carsten Spohr's webcast to the LH staff ... Things look quite grim: EU would want LH to let go of a number of slots at their MUC and FRA hubs for competition to play, not sure LH will be able to pay the June salaries (they are even looking at the possibility to sell planes for cash and giving the circumstances, one can understand this will not be easy), etc etc ...
Not sure how to interpret these messages and if they are mere power play from Spohr towards EU and Germany, but it is clear LH is not the cash cow the BE government thinks it is. All things set aside, it may be unwise to think LH will not let Brussels Airlines go broke. Not because they do not want to save them in the short run, but because they simply can't.

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Guillermo
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Guillermo »

Ansett wrote:
27 May 2020, 18:12
Guillermo wrote:
27 May 2020, 16:43
Have just grabbed some highlights from Carsten Spohr's webcast to the LH staff ... Things look quite grim: EU would want LH to let go of a number of slots at their MUC and FRA hubs for competition to play, not sure LH will be able to pay the June salaries (they are even looking at the possibility to sell planes for cash and giving the circumstances, one can understand this will not be easy), etc etc ...
Not sure how to interpret these messages and if they are mere power play from Spohr towards EU and Germany, but it is clear LH is not the cash cow the BE government thinks it is. All things set aside, it may be unwise to think LH will not let Brussels Airlines go broke. Not because they do not want to save them in the short run, but because they simply can't.
I'm very tempted to agree when you say"it may be unwise to think LH will not let Brussels Airlines go broke. Not because they do not want to save them in the short run, but because they simply can't."

However, we could very well be witnessing a major poker game or ego's game.
In a nutshell, Belgium has very few realistic immediate solutions if it wants to keep SN alive now than to accept LH/CS's conditions and on the other hand, LH/CS has very little choice but to accept the conditions of Berlin and the EU. Unless LH/CS think it is better to start a new airline with inferior wages and working conditions, given that there will be a massive number of pilots, flight attendants and other workers looking for a new job at practically any price. Again, for me it's a poker game and an ego's game.
I am sure Spohr knows how to play his cards and at those levels ego's are never far away. He specifically said he does not want to play the card of filing for bankruptcy and rebuilding a company with inferior conditions. Even though this, again, may just be to ease the unions and the general public and have them play with him against Berlin and the EU.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

CS therefore feels humiliated to have had to beg for money in Brussels
https://www.lalibre.be/economie/entrepr ... 1c545374dd

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

This is all taking far too much time. What's behind all this?

saratoga
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by saratoga »

Ansett wrote:
27 May 2020, 20:07
I think, but I can be mistaken, that CS has a huge ego and that he is already playing with the idea of letting LH go bust....
.... i would rather think SN going bust and to replace them with Eurowings.

Does anybody know, lets say, SN will go bust, do the slots going back or does LH retain them??

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Ansett wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:01
Imho, CS's plan B (which could actually be his plan A) is to let go bust both LH ans SN (and OS ?) and replace LH's and SN's intra-European flights by EW.
Now, what about the intercontinental flights ? New collective agreement, inferior remuneration and working conditions. I doubt trade unions would oppose it. When sn brussels airlines was created with rather poor wages and working conditions, there were enough candidates for these jobs. There is a precedent. Correct me, if I am wrong.
I'm not flying anymore at the moment as i'm studying, but when I was flying full time on the long haul as a cabin crew, I was reaching almost each month 3000 euros. I really would like to know what is you definition of "poor wages and working condition" in your humble opinion. I flown for 4 different airlines, Ryanair, Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium and Germania and I can tell you that Brussels Airlines was definitely my best experience.

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b.lufthansa
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by b.lufthansa »

crew1990 wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:16
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:01
Imho, CS's plan B (which could actually be his plan A) is to let go bust both LH ans SN (and OS ?) and replace LH's and SN's intra-European flights by EW.
Now, what about the intercontinental flights ? New collective agreement, inferior remuneration and working conditions. I doubt trade unions would oppose it. When sn brussels airlines was created with rather poor wages and working conditions, there were enough candidates for these jobs. There is a precedent. Correct me, if I am wrong.
I'm not flying anymore at the moment as i'm studying, but when I was flying full time on the long haul as a cabin crew, I was reaching almost each month 3000 euros. I really would like to know what is you definition of "poor wages and working condition" in your humble opinion. I flown for 4 different airlines, Ryanair, Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium and Germania and I can tell you that Brussels Airlines was definitely my best experience.
3000 euros or not, the cabin crew's netto salary remains very low. Try being Pregnant, longterm ill or retired ? You get a wage simply below average.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

b.lufthansa wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:33
crew1990 wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:16
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:01
Imho, CS's plan B (which could actually be his plan A) is to let go bust both LH ans SN (and OS ?) and replace LH's and SN's intra-European flights by EW.
Now, what about the intercontinental flights ? New collective agreement, inferior remuneration and working conditions. I doubt trade unions would oppose it. When sn brussels airlines was created with rather poor wages and working conditions, there were enough candidates for these jobs. There is a precedent. Correct me, if I am wrong.
I'm not flying anymore at the moment as i'm studying, but when I was flying full time on the long haul as a cabin crew, I was reaching almost each month 3000 euros. I really would like to know what is you definition of "poor wages and working condition" in your humble opinion. I flown for 4 different airlines, Ryanair, Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium and Germania and I can tell you that Brussels Airlines was definitely my best experience.
3000 euros or not, the cabin crew's netto salary remains very low. Try being Pregnant, longterm ill or retired ? You get a wage simply below average.
This is an average salary for a teacher in upper secondary education ..

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

737MAX wrote:
28 May 2020, 13:20
Do people here seriously believe Germany would let Lufthansa go bust? :?
Hold me back or I’m making a mistake...

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