Brussels Airlines in 2020

[RoMax]

I don't think anyone with a bit of common sense wants the government to throw a few hundred millions at SN without knowing the plan, possible scenarios (as things still change day by day), etc and at least a trustworthy indication that this money will either be paid back or flow back to the state in another way.

I don't even see the point of discussing that.

And Davignon vs De Croo in the media, that's just a simple political/lobbying play. The one defending the company's interests is pretending it's all basically done and they just wait for a signature and the politician saying it's far from done to ensure the public doesn't think the government just gives SN what it wants without conditions. The thruth is very likely something in the middle.

[lumumba]

For the first time I see and understand the anger of the Flemish part of the country,be sure that if Brussels airlines was flying from Charleroi he would never take this position.

If I remember well, Wallonia invested in SN Brussels Airlines after Sabena went bankrupt ! Flanders was by far more reluctant to say the least. So I think your statement is a bit pointless.

It was not Wallonia but Brussels Region but that's a long time ago they don't have any interest in it anymore and Charleroi is there now but I hope you are right and it's not motivated by regional nationalism but I doubt it.

[Conti764]

It would seem that the Belgian Government discovered, during this crisis, that LH owns 100% of SN without any power of decision over the company. A beginning of reflection that I perceive as useful.

I wouldn't say they've just discovered this... but for once, their way of thinking makes sense (in my opinion).
That has been the discussion here for a while; throw money into SN without thinking or think about a plan that would make sense on the long term (if that is possible)...

I can't remember anyone suggesting to just throw money at SN... The discussion was more "Let SN go bankrupt and start over (again) with something new" or "Invest the money in SN to overcome this period"

That current SN isn't sustainable is something the mother company has already discovered long ago. Hence the famous Reboot plan. Which in turn renders De Croo's 'long term survivabilty plan'-argument quite useless since SN under pressure of LH was already working on such plan.

The real issue imho is whether LH will agree on Belgium taking a stake in the LHG or rather let SN go down.

I am very sceptical about Belgian politics ever since our country got stripped and sold under the purple(-green) governments of 1999-2007 and the incompetence afterwards. All Belgian politicians are worthless.
De Croo senior once said "If you pay peanuts, you'll get monkeys" Well, we pay them diamonds, but get monkeys anyways...

[crew1990]

Planes = pollution = not good

Bit of topic but anyway. Aviation is generated huge amount of CO2, it's polluting a lot, but still this is the greatest option if you need to go overseas. Example, if you want to go from London to New York, 2 possibilities, plane or Queen Mary II, and in that case better to take the plane.

Where the problem is, this is when people take the plane like they take the bus, to go a weekend in Berlin, Barcelona, etc. It's cheaper to fly than taking a regular train ticket to Blanckenberg.

We need aviation to connect people, but we have to use it in a sustainable way. By implementing a taxation of the fuel, so that the ticket's price rise, get rid of first class, get rid of business class on flight shorter that 6 hours. Less regional airport and airport better connection with train services. Replace short route with train services, Basel, Paris, London, Amsterdam, Frankfort, Strasbourg.

[Passenger]

I just read an article in Lecho.be about Brussels Airlines they are crazy they want to let Brussels Airlines go bankrupt because it's not strategic!

I expect a bit more restraint from the printed press when it's about state aid.

The Belgian State gives Bpost € 170M each year for the free delivery of newspapers & magazines.

The VAT-tariff for newspapers and e-subscriptions is 0%. Loss of VAT income: € 190M each year.

Non-strategic advertisements from the Belgian State in printed and only media: ? €.

Free railway tickets for Belgian journalists: ? €.

[lumumba]

Planes = pollution = not good

Bit of topic but anyway. Aviation is generated huge amount of CO2, it's polluting a lot, but still this is the greatest option if you need to go overseas. Example, if you want to go from London to New York, 2 possibilities, plane or Queen Mary II, and in that case better to take the plane.

Where the problem is, this is when people take the plane like they take the bus, to go a weekend in Berlin, Barcelona, etc. It's cheaper to fly than taking a regular train ticket to Blanckenberg.

We need aviation to connect people, but we have to use it in a sustainable way. By implementing a taxation of the fuel, so that the ticket's price rise, get rid of first class, get rid of business class on flight shorter that 6 hours. Less regional airport and airport better connection with train services. Replace short route with train services, Basel, Paris, London, Amsterdam, Frankfort, Strasbourg.

I'm agree with that 100%.

[Boavida]

For the first time I see and understand the anger of the Flemish part of the country,be sure that if Brussels airlines was flying from Charleroi he would never take this position.

If I remember well, Wallonia invested in SN Brussels Airlines after Sabena went bankrupt ! Flanders was by far more reluctant to say the least. So I think your statement is a bit pointless.

It was not Wallonia but Brussels Region but that's a long time ago they don't have any interest in it anymore and Charleroi is there now but I hope you are right and it's not motivated by regional nationalism but I doubt it.

I have no doubts about this after reading following quote from the article:

"Bien sûr, si Brussels Airlines devait disparaître, des connexions pourraient être supprimées et des emplois déplacés vers Charleroi, Paris ou Schiphol, mais ce n’est, fort heureusement, pas "central" et certaines connexions pourraient même être améliorées."

He (Etienne de Callataÿ) thinks (hopes?) jobs will go from Zaventem to Charleroi when SN is gone.

It's scary, so much shortsightedness.

[crew1990]

We need aviation to connect people, but we have to use it in a sustainable way. By implementing a taxation of the fuel, so that the ticket's price rise, get rid of first class, get rid of business class on flight shorter that 6 hours. Less regional airport and airport better connection with train services. Replace short route with train services, Basel, Paris, London, Amsterdam, Frankfort, Strasbourg.

So basically you want demand to decrease (how happy does Covid19 make you about that, then?).
If the costs increase for airlines (by an extra taxation for instance), they will do everything they can to limit the impact on the ticket price, let's be realistic. They'll do that by reducing their costs elsewhere... (employees are very often the first to pay the price, never forget that).

I know that in a society so capitalistic like our, it might be slightly awkward but yes I'd like to see the demand not growing the same way like in the past 10 years. What I want is that people stop to be selfish and thing about other alternative when flying is not something necessary, and yes increasing the price of the ticket is a good way for that.

[Atlantis]

If I remember well, Wallonia invested in SN Brussels Airlines after Sabena went bankrupt ! Flanders was by far more reluctant to say the least. So I think your statement is a bit pointless.

It was not Wallonia but Brussels Region but that's a long time ago they don't have any interest in it anymore and Charleroi is there now but I hope you are right and it's not motivated by regional nationalism but I doubt it.

I have no doubts about this after reading following quote from the article:

"Bien sûr, si Brussels Airlines devait disparaître, des connexions pourraient être supprimées et des emplois déplacés vers Charleroi, Paris ou Schiphol, mais ce n’est, fort heureusement, pas "central" et certaines connexions pourraient même être améliorées."

He (Etienne de Callataÿ) thinks (hopes?) jobs will go from Zaventem to Charleroi when SN is gone.

It's scary, so much shortsightedness.

Don't put too much attention on that very unknown guy. He sounds more frustrated. His article is really strange.

He wrote by himself that he don't know the sector that connections at BRU can be deleted and that SN is a carrier which is flying without transit pax.

So why you are scared? Nobody takes that guy seriously and certainly he is not known.

So, don't be scared about people who don't know what they are saying

[flightlover]

It was not Wallonia but Brussels Region but that's a long time ago they don't have any interest in it anymore and Charleroi is there now but I hope you are right and it's not motivated by regional nationalism but I doubt it.

I have no doubts about this after reading following quote from the article:

"Bien sûr, si Brussels Airlines devait disparaître, des connexions pourraient être supprimées et des emplois déplacés vers Charleroi, Paris ou Schiphol, mais ce n’est, fort heureusement, pas "central" et certaines connexions pourraient même être améliorées."

He (Etienne de Callataÿ) thinks (hopes?) jobs will go from Zaventem to Charleroi when SN is gone.

It's scary, so much shortsightedness.

Don't put too much attention on that very unknown guy. He sounds more frustrated. His article is really strange.

He wrote by himself that he don't know the sector that connections at BRU can be deleted and that SN is a carrier which is flying without transit pax.

So why you are scared? Nobody takes that guy seriously and certainly he is not known.

So, don't be scared about people who don't know what they are saying

But he does tell what some Walloon/Brussels ministers and politicians think. That is why they imposed the heavy restrictions in BRU. That is why the Walloon government is investing so heavily in CRL and LGG.

[Atlantis]

I have no doubts about this after reading following quote from the article:



He (Etienne de Callataÿ) thinks (hopes?) jobs will go from Zaventem to Charleroi when SN is gone.

It's scary, so much shortsightedness.

Don't put too much attention on that very unknown guy. He sounds more frustrated. His article is really strange.

He wrote by himself that he don't know the sector that connections at BRU can be deleted and that SN is a carrier which is flying without transit pax.

So why you are scared? Nobody takes that guy seriously and certainly he is not known.

So, don't be scared about people who don't know what they are saying

But he does tell what some Walloon/Brussels ministers and politicians think. That is why they imposed the heavy restrictions in BRU. That is why the Walloon government is investing so heavily in CRL and LGG.

Then he is a populist, just spreading what some politicians are hoping and some of them are doing e.g. Noise fines in Brussels.

Maybe the Walloon government is investing heavily but we can see some cracks now there. In LGG they can't keep certain cargo airlines like Airbridgecargo. They just go back to AMS or MST.
CRL is even hit harder. They are even fully closed. Not known when they will be open again. Ryanair has a huge base there but will it be the same post-Corona? Nobody knows. Don't get me wrong, nothing against them, but this is what we can see now

This guy is completely wrong in his opinion if he is following what politicians are hoping.

[sean1982]

Davignon is right whe saying that SN cannot survive alone, without the support of a major group. I agree, but with the kind of s"support" SN gets from LH, it will not survive either. As for De Croo Jr's statements, do not forget that he come from the same political family as Guy Verhofstadt who played a devious role in sabena's demise (or not ?). Just my two cents to keep the discussion going in different directions.

This is exactly right. LH has never showed any intention of doing something serious with SNn they are keeping them on life support to protect their home market and thats about it, so why should we, as in the government with our money, do so? Its not like after corona LH will suddenly see the light and do something with SN. The government should only give money if there are hard garantuees that LH will not let the company go bankrupt, if LH is'nt prepared to give those garantuees, then well ... it was a disaster waiting to happen.

[sn26567]

Don't put too much attention on that very unknown guy. He sounds more frustrated. His article is really strange.

Very unknown? Etienne de Callataÿ is a renowned economist, a former professor at the University of Namur and head of an investment firm, the Walloon equivalent of Geert Noels in Flanders. His voice will certainly be heard in Wallonia.

But one point he did not take into account in his contribution to L'Echo (he is not a journalist) is the study of the National Bank of Belgium showing that a route served by a Belgian airline provides 4 times more Belgian jobs than the same route operated by a foreign airline.

In defending the idea that Brussels Airlines is strategic to the economy of Belgium, that is a point on which the aviation community must insist.

[nordikcam]

Don't put too much attention on that very unknown guy. He sounds more frustrated. His article is really strange.

Very unknown? Etienne de Callataÿ is a renowned economist, a former professor at the University of Namur and head of an investment firm, the Walloon equivalent of Geert Noels in Flanders. His voice will certainly be heard in Wallonia.

But one point he did not take into account in his contribution to L'Echo (he is not a journalist) is the study of the National Bank of Belgium showing that a route served by a Belgian airline provides 4 times more Belgian jobs than the same route operated by a foreign airline.

In defending the idea that Brussels Airlines is strategic to the economy of Belgium, that is a point on which the aviation community must insist.

And simply to think that a job transfer from a stroke of the chin from Zaventem to CRL Schiphol or CDG is very clumsy ... even if it is known in Wallonia, in fact!

Last year, at the same time, the Dutch state suddenly entered the capital of Air France-KLM to match the presence of the French state. The Belgian state does not have the means to do the same at LH but if the Belgian state finds that the parent company has no vision on the policy to follow with SN, would not it be more interesting to draw a trait and rebuild a company which, given its presence at BRU, will no doubt interest another group.

[Atlantis]

Don't put too much attention on that very unknown guy. He sounds more frustrated. His article is really strange.

Very unknown? Etienne de Callataÿ is a renowned economist, a former professor at the University of Namur and head of an investment firm, the Walloon equivalent of Geert Noels in Flanders. His voice will certainly be heard in Wallonia.

But one point he did not take into account in his contribution to L'Echo (he is not a journalist) is the study of the National Bank of Belgium showing that a route served by a Belgian airline provides 4 times more Belgian jobs than the same route operated by a foreign airline.

In defending the idea that Brussels Airlines is strategic to the economy of Belgium, that is a point on which the aviation community must insist.

Then his comment is even worser if he is so 'known'. When he is writing that he don't know the sector but still continue to write bullshit, that all connections can be deleted and no transit pax. No no no I would never trust such a person. This shows only to be a populist and the billboard of a certain political party. A real shame

[Atlantis]

Maybe the Walloon government is investing heavily but we can see some cracks now there. In LGG they can't keep certain cargo airlines like Airbridgecargo. They just go back to AMS or MST.
CRL is even hit harder. They are even fully closed. Not known when they will be open again. Ryanair has a huge base there but will it be the same post-Corona? Nobody knows. Don't get me wrong, nothing against them, but this is what we can see now

Ermmm... How many airlines have left BRU in the past few years, how many do not want to BRU in their network, how many have chosen other airports?

I hope you're joking when you say "LGG cannot keep certain cargo airlines"! ABC has ALWAYS said they wanted AMS, they got kicked out and LGG was (too bad for LGG) only a temporary solution. You cannot ignore the fact that LGG is doing an extremely good job.

CRL? They come from nothing and became a busy LCC airport in a couple of years. Where BRU failed with Ryanair, CRL keeps on getting new routes, new airlines -> new jobs. And they are extending the runway, something not very common in these "green" times in Europe...!

I know you like BRU, but that's not reason to ignore the success in the other part of your country.

I think you didn't saw when I mentioned that I don't have anything against them.

Regarding BRU, it's not only that I like them.... In meantime should be clear yeah

BRU lost indeed some airlines, but only cargo airlines. This bcs of the fines (issued by the Brussels government), old planes and the night curfew. This is a choise to make

[Boavida]

In order to avoid all the problems and implications of State aid, (I know this is going to come over as hard and unrealistic), if LH does not want to save a company which it owns, let SN "die" and set up a new one with Belgian Federal, Regional and private funds (ok, you will say this is State aid, but is a State really not allowed to set up a new company as long as it behaves as a "normal" investor ? and things will inevitably change when we get out of this crisis ; it they don't, the sh*t is really going to hit the fan). Davignon is right whe saying that SN cannot survive alone, without the support of a major group. I agree, but with the kind of "support" SN gets from LH, it will not survive either. As for De Croo Jr's statements, do not forget that he come from the same political family as Guy Verhofstadt who played a devious role in sabena's demise (or not ?). Just my two cents to keep the discussion going in different directions.

I see "letting SN die" as the worst case scenario, but indeed, IF it happens and a new company must be created with Belgian state and private funds... why not investing this in Air Belgium?

It already exists (so no startup costs, waiting for an AOC,...) ànd has the perfect name. It could replace SN in BRU as the new flag carrier.

[Conti764]

In order to avoid all the problems and implications of State aid, (I know this is going to come over as hard and unrealistic), if LH does not want to save a company which it owns, let SN "die" and set up a new one with Belgian Federal, Regional and private funds (ok, you will say this is State aid, but is a State really not allowed to set up a new company as long as it behaves as a "normal" investor ? and things will inevitably change when we get out of this crisis ; it they don't, the sh*t is really going to hit the fan). Davignon is right whe saying that SN cannot survive alone, without the support of a major group. I agree, but with the kind of "support" SN gets from LH, it will not survive either. As for De Croo Jr's statements, do not forget that he come from the same political family as Guy Verhofstadt who played a devious role in sabena's demise (or not ?). Just my two cents to keep the discussion going in different directions.

I see "letting SN die" as the worst case scenario, but indeed, IF it happens and a new company must be created with Belgian state and private funds... why not investing this in Air Belgium?

It already exists (so no startup costs, waiting for an AOC,...) ànd has the perfect name. It could replace SN in BRU as the new flag carrier.

With very inefficient four engine aircraft? Will they even consider switching CRL for the much more expensive BRU?

The only advantage I see is you might get some good rates on leasing A330's due to the expected dumping of aircraft, but then again airlines will first dump older machines.

If, and that's a big if such scenario (a new flag carrier) being it AB or a completely new project is going to happen, I hope they'll look for ties with and a future membership of Oneworld.

[Inquirer]

Seems like the lockdown is well respected, going by the many posts on such a beautiful day!

Anyway, reading through all of it, I find this to be a very weird discussion, since the only question that matters is really simple: Do you think it a strategic advantage for our country's economy (and the much needed recovery of it post-Corona) to have an operative network airlines, based at BRU?

If the answer is yes, then given the rather unique situation at hands, the obvious best way to have one ready for take-off the very day it is possible once again, is to make sure Brussels Airlines is sufficiently funded.
Setting up a new company from complete scratch, growing an existing one into a valuable replacement of any sort, seducing foreign airlines to expand their operations massively here at BRU or just waiting for a god's gift to magically arrive from abroad and do us all in Belgium a huge favour is going to be a very time consuming and a much much more expensive alternative, let that be crystal clear.

Of course, it you don't think having a seizable aviation sector is of any meaningful importance to our country's economy and its hopefully swift recovery, then you don't have to bother about any strategic scenario at all indeed and you can just concentrate on highly parochial measures for horeca and hair dressers, accepting that tens of thousands of jobs supported by the typical home based activity at the airport will happily be taken over by our neigbouring countries as their national airlines will immediately drain the Belgian market and leave just the point-to-point passengers to the foreign low costs airlines which are found to support only 1/4th of the number of indirect jobs a Belgian airline supports according to the NBB, not to mention that it will be hugely more difficult for our country to attract future inward investment if huge multinationals and small international companies alike find out that the stream of visitors to their premisses in Belgium need to sit in a car, train or plane for at least 1 to 2 extra hours just to reach their sites there, compared to just picking say AMS as their location.
Bye bye many of the meeting and convention centres, hotels, taxi drivers, HQs and all that go with it (office lease, maintenance, cleaning etc etc). It's basically turning a very meaningful European and even global business, lobbying and network centre which Brussels is today, into a provincial city like Bratislava.

Got to be some smart economist to advocate policies which kickstart such a degrading moves indeed, all to save a couple of hundred millions, if I may say so?
But for sure, some people have such unshakeable beliefs in their life-long ideology centered around the purest of free market mechanisms, that they will defend any dogmatic application of it, even when the free market itself is effectively known to be broken (like it it today, as admitted by the EC!).

Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating just giving away taxpayers money without any guarantees or preconditions whatsoever, but as was mentioned quite a few times before, there are several ways in which you can make sure this is actually turned into potentially one of the best government investments during this crisis. Remember the Fortis case for instance: that turned out to be a brilliant deal in the end!
Besides, if it is all about direct ROI rather than also indirect ROI (which much of the immediate business case is all about, I admit) then I fear to break the news that there have so far been several hundreds of millions of taxpayers money which have litterally been thrown out of the doors and windows without any thinking nor ROI at all, already! One prime exemple is the 202 euro premium to each unemployed person in Flanders to cover the cost of water, gas and electricity for this month, a completely stupid and at present still very often unneeded measure which alone costs us close to 150million! Estimated return of this political santaclaus idea for society, both directly as well as indirectly on jobs, tax income, safeguarding of social security contributions or other benefits to society: absolutely guaranteed ZERO.

[Magiktrix]

Its seems you are missing something about Etienne De Callatay. In 2014 the guy was dreaming about a minister position in the Michel government. But is dreams never materialized, why i don't know.

https://www.lalibre.be/belgique/politiq ... 7a6391447e

But since then, he is on a crusade against is ex liberals friends. Read the following article between the line and you will see that he as a problem with the Michel clan.

https://www.rtbf.be/info/belgique/detai ... d=10116412