Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Conti764
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Poiu wrote: 20 Jul 2020, 15:15
Conti764 wrote: 20 Jul 2020, 14:30
SN never realy got a fair chance fighting for its reason to excist. Now you might claim other airlines were hit by the same crises as SN (apart from the 2016 attacks) but overall most other airlines got the time and opportunity to grow or get stable at times when SN was struggling from Sabena's bankruptcy, resulting in a better basic condition then SN, making it easier to live out those crises.
Quite the opposite in fact, a lot of valuable slots and other assets were transferred basically for free from Sabena to SN.
I disagree. In its nearly 20 years excistence, SN was always cut short. Due to own mistakes (VEX, the hybrid product,...), but also external mistakes (Eurowings,...) and events (credit crisis, Ebola, Covid-19,...)

oldblueeyes
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Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Conti764 wrote: 20 Jul 2020, 18:04
Poiu wrote: 20 Jul 2020, 15:15
Conti764 wrote: 20 Jul 2020, 14:30
SN never realy got a fair chance fighting for its reason to excist. Now you might claim other airlines were hit by the same crises as SN (apart from the 2016 attacks) but overall most other airlines got the time and opportunity to grow or get stable at times when SN was struggling from Sabena's bankruptcy, resulting in a better basic condition then SN, making it easier to live out those crises.
Quite the opposite in fact, a lot of valuable slots and other assets were transferred basically for free from Sabena to SN.
I disagree. In its nearly 20 years excistence, SN was always cut short. Due to own mistakes (VEX, the hybrid product,...), but also external mistakes (Eurowings,...) and events (credit crisis, Ebola, Covid-19,...)
I would say, rather poor capitalisation and partnering strategy.

Swiss was "reborn" with a big initial cash investment and than sold100% to Lufthansa. So a solid foundation and than full controll for the entity that took it over.
Brussels was a low capitalized investment and after that a two steps sell with a to long intermediate situation - if over a decade a shareholder like Lufthansa has no interest to invest heavily because any cent investment would increase the price for the remaining shares to buy, than something was not thought to the end as the deals were signed.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Brussels Airlines appointed Nina Owerdieck as CFO, taking over from Dieter Vranckx, who is the airline’s CEO and CCO since 01 January 2020.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boeing767copilot »

According to Travel Magazine, there would be white smoke today about the future of SN.

Wondering if that is also the case.

Ge203
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Location: Brabant wallon/Waals-Brabant

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ge203 »

Boeing767copilot wrote: 21 Jul 2020, 12:15 According to Travel Magazine, there would be white smoke today about the future of SN.

Wondering if that is also the case.
And there is :
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2020/07/20 ... nd-reddin/

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

290 million loan, LH pledges 170 million. Guarantees for the brand name Brussels Airlines, (long haul) growth in BRU and more ecological aircraft and guarantees SN becomes a network airline.

Good deal. I honestly didn't expect De Croo and co to pull it off.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

The 290 Million loan needs to be repaid within 6 years, the shares of SN will act as collateral.
Brand, Belgian identity, and growth guarantees.

At first glance, not a bad deal and a serious commitment of LH.
We'll see.

rwandan-flyer
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Airbus330lover wrote: 18 Jul 2020, 21:53 or simply cargo flights ? or repatriation flights ?
Most of flights are repatriation flights.

Depending countries, boarders are not fully open. For Cameroon, only Cameroonians and foreigners living in CAM, can fly on SN flight. A native Cameroonian with a Belgium passeport can't go to CAM.

Brussels Airlines will only board Cameroonians and resident foreigners

https://translate.google.fr/translate?h ... ameroon%2F

Same thing for Senegal. Only Senegalese and people living in Senegal can back to Senegal: https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/conse ... n/senegal/ (FR)

So it's means, they won't be leisure trafic "low" vfr trafic (families with UE / US passport, can't go to some countries in Africa to see family), and probably very very very low Biz trafic

One our customer has operated similar flights to Morocco and Algeria, from Paris CDG. Most of time flights left Paris empty to North Africa and flown back with French people ou foreigners living in France, who were stranded in MAR and ALG since many month. You have to show the proof, thay you are allowed to buy a ticket on these flights.

I worked on a flight, last friday, at Paris CDG. We had 30 pax at the arrival and 4 pax, at the departure, for a 260 seater aircraft. Very few countries in Asia, have re opened their boarders.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Finally a deal, and it seems a good one.

Godspeed, Brussels Airlines! I hope they become a healthy company again (financially) and have a great future once this horrible virus is gone!

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

I think it's a good deal at one condition that Brussel Airlines becomes profitable!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

jerry
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by jerry »

Great, time to start the refunds

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

De Croo did a great job here. Hopefully we’ll see our money back in 6 years.

Timmy_T
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Timmy_T »

Die investeringen zullen ook groener moeten zijn dan nu het geval is. Nieuwe vliegtuigen zullen ecologischer en klimaatvriendelijker moeten zijn. Omdat Europa met de Green Deal stevige klimaatambities op tafel legt moet ook Brussels Airlines werken aan 'klimaatneutraliteit'.

They are talking about new and more ecological airplanes. What would they mean and what would be realistic.
Would this be long haul or Short Haul?

Long haul i was thinking about the A320XLR ? or even an A350(since Lufthanse allready has some)?

Short haul and i think this would be a great fit for them the A220

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Timmy_T wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 11:21 Die investeringen zullen ook groener moeten zijn dan nu het geval is. Nieuwe vliegtuigen zullen ecologischer en klimaatvriendelijker moeten zijn. Omdat Europa met de Green Deal stevige klimaatambities op tafel legt moet ook Brussels Airlines werken aan 'klimaatneutraliteit'.

They are talking about new and more ecological airplanes. What would they mean and what would be realistic.
Would this be long haul or Short Haul?

Long haul i was thinking about the A320XLR ? or even an A350(since Lufthanse allready has some)?

Short haul and i think this would be a great fit for them the A220
The 321XLR seems pretty sure for thinner long haul routes.

They don't need the range of the A350.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

But can the A321XLR take enough cargo ?
Conti764 wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 11:24 They don't need the range of the A350.
As more long haul destinations are part of the 'plan', maybe they can use them in the future?

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

I deliberately stayed away from this discussion until some concrete result were known, as every comment before is just thin air.

Now that a conclusion is reached, I think we can say both Belgium and Lufthansa have made a fair deal.

The airline is saved (in part with taxpayers money), but Lufthansa also adds a significant sum on top of the restructuring costs that they will logically bear alone, while we get a set of commitments for the future as firm as you can possibly make them in this day and age; with the airline now saved, there's a brighter future for the airport, skyeyes and all the operators on the ground at the airport, so that's undoubtably a very good thing too.

Noteworthy to me is the additional commitment of €100M by Lufthansa, which is IMHO a meaningful sign they indeed do not intend to let go of Brussels Airlines any time soon.

if this plan delivers, it's definitely good value for very few taxpayers money (since it's just a loan if I understood it well?).
e can even make some money off it (depending the interest rate, of which I haven't seen anything BTW)

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Again 3 AFI flights today.

OO-SFD as SN1371 to DLA
OO-SFE as SN1357 to FIH
OO-SFG as SN1201 to DSS.

H.A.

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Conti764
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Boavida wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 11:52 But can the A321XLR take enough cargo ?
Conti764 wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 11:24 They don't need the range of the A350.
As more long haul destinations are part of the 'plan', maybe they can use them in the future?
The 321XLR can serve on thinner routes with lesser cargo needs. It might open up some tatl opportunities for instance...

oldblueeyes
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Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Timmy_T wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 11:21 Die investeringen zullen ook groener moeten zijn dan nu het geval is. Nieuwe vliegtuigen zullen ecologischer en klimaatvriendelijker moeten zijn. Omdat Europa met de Green Deal stevige klimaatambities op tafel legt moet ook Brussels Airlines werken aan 'klimaatneutraliteit'.

They are talking about new and more ecological airplanes. What would they mean and what would be realistic.
Would this be long haul or Short Haul?

Long haul i was thinking about the A320XLR ? or even an A350(since Lufthanse allready has some)?

Short haul and i think this would be a great fit for them the A220
The Lufthansa has no 350 available.

The last one /nr18 should be delivered end of July and the rest of 7 to complete the first bunch of 25 are already postponed to 2023. From the second batch of 10 onl 17 willl be delivered, as 3 were options already canceled. And once the demand comes back again, there are 17 A346 in the mainlines fleet to be replaced.if the remaining A380 will not come back ever they would also need a replacement. So 24 remaining A359 are to be delivered until 2028 vs 17 A346 plus probably 8A380 to be retired.

With more ecological planes there is a lot of interpretation - the newer A333 have a better fuel per seat balance as the old A332; if the Airbusfleet should be harmonized towards the A320, the same would apply, even if it is only the CEO version.

Any yes, the A223 might be the ideal plane if Brussels can pay for it and the A321XLR is an option Lufthansa considers-although no clear order yet.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

I still don't know why it took so long for the Belgian government to finalize the agreement with Lufthansa. What is on paper now, is what Lufthansa agreed long time ago: "an agreement in line with the agreements in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. An agreement that is good for both parties".

De Croo says - once again in De Ochtend, VRT, this morning, that he has managed to get a lot of concessions from Lufthansa. What is there so special about "Brussels must remain a hub for Brussels Airlines"? There are no plans to move operations to Eindhoven or Luxembourg. What is there so special to have two seats at the Brussels Airlines Board (with or without voting right, minister???). They can't block decisions, and once the loan is repaid, their term ends. What is there so special to have the Brussels Airlines shares as bond, in case Lufthansa doen's repay the loan? "This is crucial", De Croo said. If LH doesn't want to refund, you go to court. If they can't refund, the value of the SN shares will be zero. What is a promise that Brussels Airlines will invest in new aircraft, "if they make a profit and if the economy allows it"? If they can, they will do so anyway: to avoid Green Deal taxes and fines. And if aviation recovers slowly: no new aircraft.

Minister De Croo demanded a seat at the Lufthansa Board - he didn't got it. He demanded 25% shares from Brussels Airlines - he didn't got it. And his power play / poker game finally resulted in a deal that could have been concluded one or two months ago, like in Switzerland and Austria.

Anyway - perhaps we'll get some real answers later today, in the Belgian Parliament. Agenda Thursday 23th July 2020, at 15h00 in the Commissie voor Financiën en Begroting / Commission des Finances et du Budget: "Reddingsplan Brussels Airlines. Gedachtewisseling met de vice-eersteminister en minister van Financiën. Plan de sauvetage Brussels Airlines. Echange de vues avec le vice-premier ministre et ministre des Finances.

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