Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Airbus330lover »

About the restart of the last days.... the marketing department has a serious lack of profesionnalism. Why don't use the icons for the restart is a big mistery. And why use the only one painted EW colours on the restart. ?
Any GOOD reason ?

Flanker2
Posts: 1729
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

sn26567 wrote: 24 Jun 2020, 21:36
Flanker2 wrote: 24 Jun 2020, 21:14 But there's no way my taxes are going to be used to prop up a German company that flies Belgians to Malaga and Porto in the middle of the worst economic crisis for the nation, while Belgian businesses are starting to go bankrupt one after the other.
And how will you prevent the Ministry of Finance to bail out Brussels Airlines with your tax money?
If the policy of this country is to waste my taxes on unnecessary bailouts of foreign companies that do not really need the bailouts because their own governments are going to save their billionaire owners, while Belgians are losing their jobs and Belgian businesses and individuals are going bankrupt, I'll move to another country and entice others to do the same.

Stop this lemon socialism of privatising profits and socialising losses, in the name of "saving jobs", especially of foreign corporations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_socialism

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pr ... areholders.

b720
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by b720 »

Flanker2 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 01:43
sn26567 wrote: 24 Jun 2020, 21:36
Flanker2 wrote: 24 Jun 2020, 21:14 But there's no way my taxes are going to be used to prop up a German company that flies Belgians to Malaga and Porto in the middle of the worst economic crisis for the nation, while Belgian businesses are starting to go bankrupt one after the other.
And how will you prevent the Ministry of Finance to bail out Brussels Airlines with your tax money?
If the policy of this country is to waste my taxes on unnecessary bailouts of foreign companies that do not really need the bailouts because their own governments are going to save their billionaire owners, while Belgians are losing their jobs and Belgian businesses and individuals are going bankrupt, I'll move to another country and entice others to do the same.

Stop this lemon socialism of privatising profits and socialising losses, in the name of "saving jobs", especially of foreign corporations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_socialism

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pr ... areholders.
I don’t think that it is only about jobs. Connectivity at BRU is crucial to the economy of B as a whole. Allowing SN to go bust and start a new airline, maybe that s an option, But the government should not be in the business of starting and running an airline. So what is better, injecting that money into the foreign owned SN or using that money to start a new airline? We all agree that we need an airline that connects BRU with EUrope and beyond.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

b720 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 08:41
Flanker2 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 01:43
sn26567 wrote: 24 Jun 2020, 21:36
And how will you prevent the Ministry of Finance to bail out Brussels Airlines with your tax money?
If the policy of this country is to waste my taxes on unnecessary bailouts of foreign companies that do not really need the bailouts because their own governments are going to save their billionaire owners, while Belgians are losing their jobs and Belgian businesses and individuals are going bankrupt, I'll move to another country and entice others to do the same.

Stop this lemon socialism of privatising profits and socialising losses, in the name of "saving jobs", especially of foreign corporations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_socialism

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pr ... areholders.
I don’t think that it is only about jobs. Connectivity at BRU is crucial to the economy of B as a whole. Allowing SN to go bust and start a new airline, maybe that s an option, But the government should not be in the business of starting and running an airline. So what is better, injecting that money into the foreign owned SN or using that money to start a new airline? We all agree that we need an airline that connects BRU with EUrope and beyond.
Why shouldn't governments be in the business of starting airlines? So who started Lufthansa? Who started SN Brussels Airlines? Alitalia? Air France? KLM? British Airways? Iberia? TAP? Emirates? Etihad? Qatar? Turkish Airlines? SAA? Singapore? Korean? Air China? Swiss? Austrian?

Most major airlines have been founded by governments, so your argument doesn't really work.

It's nice to line up "connectivity" and BRU in the same sentence, but what is Lufthansa doing to make it happen? Flying Belgian tourists to Malaga, Ibiza, Venice, Rome, Lisbon, that's not exactly connectivity, that's signature Eurowings camouflaged in Belgitude. And yet those are the routes that are most important to a LH-owned SN.

Fewer flights, packed tight so everyone can get cozy and catch Covid-19 so that Spohr can still get some bonus checks.

At least, Alitalia doesn't try to be politically correct, they give the EU the middle finger about subsidies, but people are seated apart on the flights to reduce the risk of infection. People before money.
The same goes for Easyjet.

Flying tightly packed aircraft may be more profitable or less lossmaking for immoral airlines like the Lufthansa Group, IAG, and Ryanair, but who pays the price of the medical bills for the Belgians who get infected aboard these flights? Lemon socialism at its best.

Stop repeating these corporate mantra's like parrots, y'all grow brains and start having your own opinions.

Matt
Posts: 137
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Matt »

Flanker2 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 09:42 Stop repeating these corporate mantra's like parrots, y'all grow brains and start having your own opinions.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

I know this post is going to be deleted but I wanna say it anyway.

Jesus Christ... :roll: Take your frustration elsewhere.

b720
Posts: 865
Joined: 04 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by b720 »

Flanker2 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 09:42
b720 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 08:41
Flanker2 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 01:43
Using such language makes it harder for people to agree with you, even when you are right.

I’ll respond as I have nothing else to do today..

U deviated from the argument.

I fully agree with u on the packed flights. I took 3 last week
LH,Lx, amd SN BRU -FRA packed
FRA- GVa packed
Amd gva - BRU packed .. I don’t understand why they don’t add flights. IATA changed its recommendation and allowed for full flights, as long as pax wear face masks.. that was obviously finance at the cost of health. A lot of inconsistency as well.. social distance are the airport and while boarding but that ends the minute people enter the aircraft! Only SN disembarked row by row.. LX And LH stampede as usual..

Concerning government owned airlines, they only grew and became profitable when they were privatised.

Finally, SN connects numerous European business Centers
With BRU. Those connections are very important for our economy. They also bring in tourists to Belgium, not only business people. And they do not only export Belgian tourists! Is LH the ideal partner? Maybe not, amd that can be discussed.. but is an airline based in BRU that connects and attracts other airlines into our market important for our economy? Yes it is.




If the policy of this country is to waste my taxes on unnecessary bailouts of foreign companies that do not really need the bailouts because their own governments are going to save their billionaire owners, while Belgians are losing their jobs and Belgian businesses and individuals are going bankrupt, I'll move to another country and entice others to do the same.

Stop this lemon socialism of privatising profits and socialising losses, in the name of "saving jobs", especially of foreign corporations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_socialism

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pr ... areholders.
I don’t think that it is only about jobs. Connectivity at BRU is crucial to the economy of B as a whole. Allowing SN to go bust and start a new airline, maybe that s an option, But the government should not be in the business of starting and running an airline. So what is better, injecting that money into the foreign owned SN or using that money to start a new airline? We all agree that we need an airline that connects BRU with EUrope and beyond.
Why shouldn't governments be in the business of starting airlines? So who started Lufthansa? Who started SN Brussels Airlines? Alitalia? Air France? KLM? British Airways? Iberia? TAP? Emirates? Etihad? Qatar? Turkish Airlines? SAA? Singapore? Korean? Air China? Swiss? Austrian?

Most major airlines have been founded by governments, so your argument doesn't really work.

It's nice to line up "connectivity" and BRU in the same sentence, but what is Lufthansa doing to make it happen? Flying Belgian tourists to Malaga, Ibiza, Venice, Rome, Lisbon, that's not exactly connectivity, that's signature Eurowings camouflaged in Belgitude. And yet those are the routes that are most important to a LH-owned SN.

Fewer flights, packed tight so everyone can get cozy and catch Covid-19 so that Spohr can still get some bonus checks.

At least, Alitalia doesn't try to be politically correct, they give the EU the middle finger about subsidies, but people are seated apart on the flights to reduce the risk of infection. People before money.
The same goes for Easyjet.

Flying tightly packed aircraft may be more profitable or less lossmaking for immoral airlines like the Lufthansa Group, IAG, and Ryanair, but who pays the price of the medical bills for the Belgians who get infected aboard these flights? Lemon socialism at its best.

Stop repeating these corporate mantra's like parrots, y'all grow brains and start having your own opinions.

LJ
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by LJ »

Flanker2 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 09:42Why shouldn't governments be in the business of starting airlines? So who started ..... KLM.........?
Not the Dutch government. KLM was set up by 8 business persons.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

LJ wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 19:38
Flanker2 wrote: 25 Jun 2020, 09:42Why shouldn't governments be in the business of starting airlines? So who started ..... KLM.........?
Not the Dutch government. KLM was set up by 8 business persons.
KLM flying struts and wires aircraft perhaps, but not the current KLM, which became what it is today as a national company and with taxpayer funds.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Does anyone know when the next meeting is between LH and the Belgian govt?

It's about time we F I N A L L Y have an outcome.

LJ
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Location: Heiloo NL

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by LJ »

Ansett wrote: 26 Jun 2020, 00:03 What about coming back to SN. No comments on the decision of the General Assembly to approve the deal between Berlin and LH ?
So far no reaction from the Belgian government.
Why would the Belgian government comment? Though LH now has a package, we still don't know why Thiele changed his mind. Moreover, do you actually need to congratulate a company that it needs to be bailed out?
Ansett wrote: 26 Jun 2020, 00:03 I tend to agree that LH should "save" SN, if it really wants to do it.
The 400 million LH would like to get are like a bill of 500 euros which you fill with rolling tobacco, you light it, you smoke it, it won't last long and it won't get you off your addiction of wanting more (money). I'm curious to see who is going to give in, the Belgian government or LH/CS ? Or nobody.
Didn't LH get a reduced bail out package if SN received money from the Belgian State?

rwandan-flyer
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Agreement with Brussels Airlines: 75% of jobs preserved

The agreement preserves 75% of jobs, divided equally between the departments, underlines the management.

https://translate.google.fr/translate?h ... -preserves

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Boavida wrote: 26 Jun 2020, 11:12 Does anyone know when the next meeting is between LH and the Belgian govt?

It's about time we F I N A L L Y have an outcome.
CEO Dieter Vranckx said during the press (tele)conference that SN did not need any money from LH yet during the corona crisis. The cost of the restructuring is expected to be borne by both LH and a loan from the Belgian State. The discussions with LH are ongoing and expected to be concluded soon.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

sn26567 wrote: 26 Jun 2020, 23:34
Boavida wrote: 26 Jun 2020, 11:12 Does anyone know when the next meeting is between LH and the Belgian govt?

It's about time we F I N A L L Y have an outcome.
CEO Dieter Vranckx said during the press (tele)conference that SN did not need any money from LH yet during the corona crisis. The cost of the restructuring is expected to be borne by both LH and a loan from the Belgian State. The discussions with LH are ongoing and expected to be concluded soon.
Is this literally what was said? Because it's nonsense.
If there is a cost to a restructuring, it's in the form of lost jobs and that cost is borne by the workforce.
Restructurings are supposed to cut costs, not generate costs, so it's nonsensical.

Don't waste Belgian taxpayer money, we're going to need it to save our national enterprises and the sustainable local jobs.
It's going to be a long and cold winter, every Euro will count, we can't afford to waste anything.
Now is not the moment to splash hundreds of millions that will be burned by the winter.

It's meaningless to operate an airline in this climate, it's a waste of resources.
Business is not happening, clients aren't buying, so there is no demand for business travel.

Keep SN grounded, then restart it as a national airline when the skies are clear.
Invest resources on containing the virus, not in flying people around to get infected or bring the virus home.
Airlines have allowed to spread this disease and are continuing to do so because politicians want to save the airlines a few billions, while economies are losing thousandfolds of that.

We need to ask our airlines to stay grounded and pay them to stay grounded.
Don't listen to me if you don't want to, listen to Dr. Fauci. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEpUyc0zJtU

Bracebrace
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

Flanker2 wrote: 27 Jun 2020, 09:13If there is a cost to a restructuring, it's in the form of lost jobs and that cost is borne by the workforce.
Restructurings are supposed to cut costs, not generate costs, so it's nonsensical.
Restructuring costs money short term, they are (supposed to if done wisely) save a lot of money long term.

Stopping lease contracts costs money, stopping contracts with service providers costs money, sometimes to be replaced by new contracts with different providers which costs money again, re-training of people in different functions costs money,...

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Av24.be
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Av24.be »

737MAX wrote: 27 Jun 2020, 09:31
Can nobody here stop this guy polluting this thread with the same bull**** everyday? :roll:
Hint: if you don’t agree with someone’s opinion, you can always use the friend/foe list: app.php/help/faq#f6r0

However, you might miss out on important information 🤔

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Bracebrace wrote: 27 Jun 2020, 09:31
Flanker2 wrote: 27 Jun 2020, 09:13If there is a cost to a restructuring, it's in the form of lost jobs and that cost is borne by the workforce.
Restructurings are supposed to cut costs, not generate costs, so it's nonsensical.
Restructuring costs money short term, they are (supposed to if done wisely) save a lot of money long term.

Stopping lease contracts costs money, stopping contracts with service providers costs money, sometimes to be replaced by new contracts with different providers which costs money again, re-training of people in different functions costs money,...
-Stopping lease contracts early comes at a premium. But when you have a fleet of 34 used narrow bodies on shorter lease terms, you would have about a dozen aircraft coming up for lease termination on any given year, so there really isn't much of a need to terminate the contracts early.
And even if you terminate them early, if the result is that it would cost less than keep paying the lease, it's still a saving, not an additional cost.
-Contracts with service providers can be renegotiated and in times like these, the customer has all the bargaining power.
-Non-essential training is the first thing that goes in a crisis like this. Nobody's going to get retrained now.

Even if you would consider early lease termination costs, subsidising those with government money is like paying a factory to close down one of its four factories and fire its employees. We're going to subsidise the destruction of jobs?

Insane things that people try to sell us as the right thing to do :roll:
Which idiots are going to buy this?

If Lufthansa wants to downsize SN, they can do it with their own money, or the money they get from their own government.
Subsidies are meant for companies that create jobs. We can't give subsidies to companies that cut jobs.

Also, I wonder what channel SN used to request subsidies? Is this an official channel?
If this subsidy is granted to SN, you can expect every company and their mother to start issuing large subsidy requests.
Actually, what are they all waiting to start requesting subsidies en masse?



Germany is one of the countries most at risk of collapse in this crisis.
Imagine what will happen when all those loan guarantees are triggered in a few months.

Also, I would like you to imagine how the below graphs will look when GDP collapses by 30-50%.

Image

Image

https://www.ft.com/content/0a43570a-059 ... 3b735dc76b
Last edited by Flanker2 on 27 Jun 2020, 17:05, edited 5 times in total.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

About the lease contracts, D Vranckx said yesterday they had been renegotiated at a lower cost, one of the reasons SN didn't have yet to ask LH for financial support.

He also mentioned that all the flights operated since the restart were profitable, or at least breaking even.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

sn26567 wrote: 27 Jun 2020, 16:57 About the lease contracts, D Vranckx said yesterday they had been renegotiated at a lower cost, one of the reasons SN didn't have yet to ask LH for financial support.

He also mentioned that all the flights operated since the restart were profitable, or at least breaking even.
Let's assume that it's true, and I very much doubt it.

Profitable doesn't mean that they generated positive cash flow. Like I said, people are using their vouchers.
This crisis is much less about profits, much more about liquidity.

Profitable on a unit basis also doesn't mean that they can cover all the overhead and costs of parked aircraft.

Profitable for SN doesn't mean profitable for the larger society. Flying Belgians to the South is not profitable for Belgium, infecting Belgians aboard packed aircraft is not profitable for our health care system.

Note: I'm not trying to shoot the messenger.

FLYAIR10
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by FLYAIR10 »

Let's assume that it's true, and I very much doubt it.
Why could it not be true. 1. It's in the interest of the leasing companies aswell that SN stays alive . I can imagine that talking to the leasing companies to obtain lower rates was one of the first things mr Dierickx had in mind mid march when the planes needed to be parked.(or earlier this year already, but corona-situation helped probably a bit to 'convince' them)

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

There is not so much need to talk to lessors. The fleet is shrinking thus old contracts won't be renewed. Amnd furthermore there will be enough A320family CEOs available owned by Lufthansa to replace current fleet there were the fleet is staying.

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