Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Bracebrace
Posts: 235
Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

Shonix wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:30 Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:

https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591

Flanker2, were you part of the editorial board? 😉
Nothing new, nationalizing has always been a goal in the south part of the country. This sounds more like abuse of the crisis to get it done finally.

Boavida
Posts: 497
Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 23:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Bracebrace wrote: 22 Jun 2020, 12:05
Shonix wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:30 Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:

https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591

Flanker2, were you part of the editorial board? 😉
Nothing new, nationalizing has always been a goal in the south part of the country. This sounds more like abuse of the crisis to get it done finally.
I'm from the north of the country. Giving up SN is simply not an option. It would decimate Zaventem Airport, the second biggest economic hub of the country after the Port of Antwerp. Both in Flanders, btw.

I see nationalising SN as the last resort if everything else has failed. Obviously it's not ideal but if this is what it takes to save the home carrier of Zaventem, it has to be done. Period.

Passenger
Posts: 6862
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Ge203 wrote: 18 Jun 2020, 20:03 In La Libre, multiple sources are stating that CS is ready to let SN go bust, claiming that SN will not be able to reimburse the loan and won't be profitable for a long time, if ever. The absence of agreement between the unions and the management doesn't help. LH Group's Chief of Communication Bartels states that it is pure speculation (of course...).
https://www.lalibre.be/economie/entrepr ... 1bd092f673
Gazet Van Antwerpen today writes/repeats the same: "...Dat Lufthansa volgens La Libre zijn Belgisch filiaal de boeken wil laten neerleggen als directie en vakbonden geen deal vinden, zorgt voor groeiende ongerustheid bij het personeel, ook al noemt Brussels Airlines de geruchten “pure speculatie”... Translate.Google says this is: "...The fact that according to La Libre its Lufthansa wants its Belgian subsidiary to put down its books if management and unions do not find a deal, is growing concern among the staff, even though Brussels Airlines calls the rumors "pure speculation"..."
https://www.gva.be/cnt/dmf20200622_0499 ... n-op-tafel

The above scenario, in both La Libre and Gazet van Antwerpen, is based upon the wrong assumption that Management and trade unions have to agree / have to make a deal on the Collective Dismissals. No! The Wet Renault (Collective Dismissals) only states that management has to investigate and answer to all proposals, questions and suggestions from the trade unions. Legislation doesn't say they have to agree. Hence the tactic of the trade unions: they can't demand anything, so they have chosen to fillibuster: they have asked more then 100 questions. Management now has to investigate all of them, and then give a solid reply. Otherwise the court will cancel the Collective Dismissal.

crew1990
Posts: 1127
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Boavida wrote: 22 Jun 2020, 12:54
I'm from the north of the country. Giving up SN is simply not an option. It would decimate Zaventem Airport, the second biggest economic hub of the country after the Port of Antwerp. Both in Flanders, btw.
Brussels Airport is maybe surrounded by Flanders but still the national airport. Brussels Airport is not only the airport of Brussels when it's about take off pattern.

Deejay
Posts: 24
Joined: 06 Feb 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Deejay »

In any scenario, the loan will indeed have to be repaid.

As such, SN must have a viable business model, and the 8% margin that LH was expecting (pre-covid of course) does not seem out of line... Sorry for all the people at SN that are at risk losing their jobs, one can discuss if it has to be 4, 6 or 8, but reboot seemed to be a must. Economic law.

Once we've said that, remains the question to know if LH is really maximising profits at SN as a "profit center", or are there some tactics to protect the backyard for mama Luftie...

two examples we've had the last few days:
1. Still no complete integration in LH booking engine: try to book a triangle BRU-GVA-VIE-BRU, and you will see....
2. The "return garanteed" is only valid for the LH-LX-OS and not SN, why?
They STILL do not consider SN as equal network airline as the two cousins ....

That is the question: which business model will be the most profitable for SN as a profit center....
Will they make more money as a full network airline ? Do they need more longhaul to maximise profit ?
or is the old Hybrid model from Gustin more profitable ?

Belgium, and Brussels, as the capital of Europe, need a HUB and a network airline. It is essential for business, politics and diplomacy...
Leisure and lowcost airlines are a "nice to have" for the people, but not essential for the above.

How can the belgian government make sure that, if they lend some money to Lufthansa, LH in return will make sure to actually maximise the profit of SN as a profit center, and not maximise the profits at group level .... That is for me the real question.

Bracebrace
Posts: 235
Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

Boavida wrote: 22 Jun 2020, 12:54 I see nationalising SN as the last resort if everything else has failed. Obviously it's not ideal but if this is what it takes to save the home carrier of Zaventem, it has to be done. Period.
Not a resort, and by far a solution. Merely a temporary sidestep, that in the longrun would end up in the same situation: the offered product does not suit the country/airport and costs a lot of money with a zillion opinions.

I have a lot of friends overthere, I hope they can keep healthy liveable contracts.

DannyVDB
Posts: 861
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by DannyVDB »

DannyVDB wrote: 12 Jun 2020, 07:51 According to https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/brussels, they are preparing 7 A319 (5) & 320 (2) for entrance into service from 15/06 onwards.

The same source states there are already 3 A330 active ...

Cheers
Danny
According to the same source there are currently 11 A319 (7) and A320 (4) active ... Strange enough the source says no A330 are currently active while I think there was a flight today to Banjul ...

Anyone knows the LF on the flights the first week?

Cheers,
Danny

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Ozzie1969
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Location: Brugge, Flanders + Annan, Scotland + Ormoc,Philippines
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ozzie1969 »

Atlantis wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 09:30
Ozzie1969 wrote: 20 Jun 2020, 17:53
Atlantis wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 22:56Let's all hope that they will succeed bcs otherwise BRU will be a dessert.
If BRU turns into a dessert, I bet it's a waffle with strawberries and whipped cream ! Unless you meant 'desert'...

By the way, aren't you the same person who (in another topic) was happy to see Wizzair leave BRU and is afraid of Transavia coming to BRU ? I fail to see the logic in your thinking. Brussels Airlines has to be saved at all cost (to the taxpayer), but no other airlines should come to BRU. The mind boggles.
That was for sure not me bcs I was even giving the information that there would come more destinations. But Corona and their too fast starting up with barely flying people decided differently.

And I have completely nothing against other airlines coming to BRU. So what you wrote there is nonsense and only on your conto.

The only thing you have to be aware is that you don't kill routes and airlines on certain destinations
It was you. For sure.

Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines
Report
Quote

Post by Atlantis » 18 Jun 2020 04:20 pm

TLspotting wrote: ↑
17 Jun 2020 01:44 pm

sdbelgium wrote: ↑
17 Jun 2020 01:17 pm
Wizzair will end BUD-BRU route on June 30, all flights to Belgium will now again be concentrated in CRL. https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/wizz ... perations/ ;) Not so bad. This will bring balance again. Of course we can't deny airlines to come and fly. But the route is Let's say not that mature enough to allow SN, LOT and Wizzair.

Imagine Wizzair and next year a new base of Transavia at BRU that would really kill.

Let's go back to normality

oldblueeyes
Posts: 91
Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

No.. 8% EBIT is the money where a company can sustain its own investment program.

Let's be fair .. as of today Brussels has no substance - the 333 are owned by Lufthans and upfront payments were made from them, the a320fam fleet is leased and all is second hand.

If we look at the profitability the problem is not just savings but the link beetween income and cost.

Brussels is the follow airline of Virgn Express and operates into a low revenue environemnt with all the cheap competition in CRL ( by the way, why does need Belgium that airport?). On the other hand it has the aspiration to be a hub airline, wich all operational deficiencies a huba nd spoke operating mode brings.

Hybrid? We see what happend to Air Berlin - just Gustin did not realized that.

So in fact the airline and the local dream(ers) ave ultimately to decide what business model it needs to be self sustaining - either a small hub and spoke airline, butthan do not count for volumes, or mainly a point to poit airline - but than accept that critical mass in the business is driven by Ryanair , Easyjet and co with hundersds of planes so no redundant adminsrative structures to Eurowings.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Bracebrace wrote: 22 Jun 2020, 12:05
Shonix wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:30 Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:

https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591

Flanker2, were you part of the editorial board? 😉
Nothing new, nationalizing has always been a goal in the south part of the country. This sounds more like abuse of the crisis to get it done finally.
If you look at the authors of the article, you will see that they come from universities in both the north and the south of the country (and even the centre ;) )
André
ex Sabena #26567

JOVAN
Posts: 484
Joined: 08 Jun 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

Passenger wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 20:21
Shonix wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:30 Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:
https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591
We already had this story a few weeks ago, when the same people published their manifesto in a Flemish newspaper. Their motivation has nothing do with corona, with economics, with Brussels Airlines and/or with Brussels Airport. I have googeled all of the signers. They vary from utopia dreamers to ecologic fundamentalists. Common interest: we hate aviation.

Most of them are very young – many were still university student till just a few months ago.

One of them published an open letter in a Flemish newspaper on 13th January 2020: “any publicity for meat, for cars and for holiday trips should be forbitten”.

One of them tries to re-write the Economics university education because it's focussed too much on... economics, and too little on ecology.

One of them even refuses to use a car: “I only use public transport. Or I walk”.

One of them is a young historian specializing in 12th century urbanization at Bruges.

I abstain from describing the others because I then have to mention political parties.

Their proposal to nationalize both Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport is not the result of economical, rational thinking. It is surrealistic and ridiculous. Extraterrestrial thinking. Their next demand will be “the airport may open for business Mon-Fri 09h-16h”.
I support -for once- Passengers opinion.
Let us not follow these "academics" and the low class journalists (Libre, Standaard,...) who just don't know but have to fill their papaers.

Shonix
Posts: 80
Joined: 31 Jan 2018, 12:06

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

Passenger wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 20:21
Shonix wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:30 Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:
https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591
We already had this story a few weeks ago, when the same people published their manifesto in a Flemish newspaper. Their motivation has nothing do with corona, with economics, with Brussels Airlines and/or with Brussels Airport. I have googeled all of the signers. They vary from utopia dreamers to ecologic fundamentalists. Common interest: we hate aviation.

Most of them are very young – many were still university student till just a few months ago.

One of them published an open letter in a Flemish newspaper on 13th January 2020: “any publicity for meat, for cars and for holiday trips should be forbitten”.

One of them tries to re-write the Economics university education because it's focussed too much on... economics, and too little on ecology.

One of them even refuses to use a car: “I only use public transport. Or I walk”.

One of them is a young historian specializing in 12th century urbanization at Bruges.

I abstain from describing the others because I then have to mention political parties.

Their proposal to nationalize both Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport is not the result of economical, rational thinking. It is surrealistic and ridiculous. Extraterrestrial thinking. Their next demand will be “the airport may open for business Mon-Fri 09h-16h”.
Indeed, it's important to further investigate who these authors are. After a quick check I noticed that the majority was quite young and did not notice any aviation background.

However, discussing about nationalizing Brussels Airlines cannot be described as an "extraterrestrial thinking". It's an option to consider and worth to discuss on given the current circumstances.

Shonix
Posts: 80
Joined: 31 Jan 2018, 12:06

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

oldblueeyes wrote: 22 Jun 2020, 19:36 No.. 8% EBIT is the money where a company can sustain its own investment program.

Let's be fair .. as of today Brussels has no substance - the 333 are owned by Lufthans and upfront payments were made from them, the a320fam fleet is leased and all is second hand.

If we look at the profitability the problem is not just savings but the link beetween income and cost.

Brussels is the follow airline of Virgn Express and operates into a low revenue environemnt with all the cheap competition in CRL ( by the way, why does need Belgium that airport?). On the other hand it has the aspiration to be a hub airline, wich all operational deficiencies a huba nd spoke operating mode brings.

Hybrid? We see what happend to Air Berlin - just Gustin did not realized that.

So in fact the airline and the local dream(ers) ave ultimately to decide what business model it needs to be self sustaining - either a small hub and spoke airline, butthan do not count for volumes, or mainly a point to poit airline - but than accept that critical mass in the business is driven by Ryanair , Easyjet and co with hundersds of planes so no redundant adminsrative structures to Eurowings.
Jobs. CRL is an important economic player. It's an open secret that its success pisses off a certain segment of the population but who cares? CRL is a great example of success.

crew1990
Posts: 1127
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Shonix wrote: 23 Jun 2020, 10:58
Passenger wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 20:21
Shonix wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:30 Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:
https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591
We already had this story a few weeks ago, when the same people published their manifesto in a Flemish newspaper. Their motivation has nothing do with corona, with economics, with Brussels Airlines and/or with Brussels Airport. I have googeled all of the signers. They vary from utopia dreamers to ecologic fundamentalists. Common interest: we hate aviation.

Most of them are very young – many were still university student till just a few months ago.

One of them published an open letter in a Flemish newspaper on 13th January 2020: “any publicity for meat, for cars and for holiday trips should be forbitten”.

One of them tries to re-write the Economics university education because it's focussed too much on... economics, and too little on ecology.

One of them even refuses to use a car: “I only use public transport. Or I walk”.

One of them is a young historian specializing in 12th century urbanization at Bruges.

I abstain from describing the others because I then have to mention political parties.

Their proposal to nationalize both Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport is not the result of economical, rational thinking. It is surrealistic and ridiculous. Extraterrestrial thinking. Their next demand will be “the airport may open for business Mon-Fri 09h-16h”.
Indeed, it's important to further investigate who these authors are. After a quick check I noticed that the majority was quite young and did not notice any aviation background.

However, discussing about nationalizing Brussels Airlines cannot be described as an "extraterrestrial thinking". It's an option to consider and worth to discuss on given the current circumstances.
I don't know the writter and their qualification, but still, there is no need to have a background in aviation when it comes to nationalisation of an airline (or any other company), as the objective is not to make it profitable but to make of it an asset for the economy of the country. Better be an economist than an aviation specialist when it come to nationalisation. Example SNCB/NMBS, it's not run by railway specialist as the objectif is not to make money, it's run by the state because the objective is to provide transportation services to the population.

There should be aviation specialist in this project (like Bernard Gustin) to guide the decidor in their decision. But decision should be made for the well being of the country and not the profitabily of the airline. Example, Brussels should be connected to Brazil, India, China etc. it migh not be profitable for the airlines, but it would boost the foreign exchange and bring money to the country, it's all about investment.

About the writter, they could be young so what? Per analogy, if I go to a doctor, i prefer a doctor in is his 30-40's up to date to the last medical researsh, than a old one giving antibiotic like candies because he doesn't know what to do even if he has "experience" Also when it come's to business, "young" people are much more creative and live in their times.

JOVAN
Posts: 484
Joined: 08 Jun 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

crew1990 wrote: 23 Jun 2020, 11:16 About the writter, they could be young so what? Per analogy, if I go to a doctor, i prefer a doctor in is his 30-40's up to date to the last medical researsh, than a old one giving antibiotic like candies because he doesn't know what to do even if he has "experience" Also when it come's to business, "young" people are much more creative and live in their times.
Well, my experience with young doctors is that there is a huge lack of experience.
Many young ones are afraid with even small issues, and will easily send you to a hospital.

I like young people, but I find them easily escaping from their responsibilty and finding excuses.
On the other hand , academics nowadays think they are better is they make produce lot of studies, papers... The content is sometimes

Let us not push away the old guys. This airline / airport issues are too important to let some millenials decide.
Professional, loyal and experienced managers, not only thinking about their bonuses, are important for any kind of company or organization.

But it is nice to have many opinions.

Passenger
Posts: 6862
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

It's not because one has just obtained his/her university grade and because the university offers you a job as junior researcher, that you become an aviation specialist. At the contrary. Such people should know they are an expert only in their field. When that is 12-13th century urbanization, such academic should abstain from pretending to be an aviation specialist.

On top, they not only demand nationalization of Brussels Airlines, but also nationalization of Brussels Airport. How much taxpayers' money we're gonna need to get the remaining 75%? Brussels Airport Company nv/sa: own assets 809M of which 640M invested capital, turnover/revenu 593M, average yearly profit last 4 years 67M. One needs an extraterrestrial calculator and a bunch of senior accountants to establish the nationalization cost.

crew1990
Posts: 1127
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

So aviation specialist only can talk about aviation? People who thing that are wrong. Aviation specialist knows how works aviation but see everything in a self-centered way forgetting that aviation is part of something more global, having impact on many other field like economy, foreign exchange, international relation, tourism, etc.

Those writers didn't pretend to be aviation specialist, and they don't even have to be.

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Ozzie1969
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ozzie1969 »

It Always amazes me that people who spend their entire lives inside the walls of universities can have an opinion on the real world and expect to be taken seriously.

JOVAN
Posts: 484
Joined: 08 Jun 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

crew1990 wrote: 23 Jun 2020, 13:00 So aviation specialist only can talk about aviation? People who thing that are wrong. Aviation specialist knows how works aviation but see everything in a self-centered way forgetting that aviation is part of something more global, having impact on many other field like economy, foreign exchange, international relation, tourism, etc.

Those writers didn't pretend to be aviation specialist, and they don't even have to be.
:roll:

crew1990
Posts: 1127
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Ozzie1969 wrote: 23 Jun 2020, 14:16 It Always amazes me that people who spend their entire lives inside the walls of universities can have an opinion on the real world and expect to be taken seriously.
The aim of the university is to study what is outside of those walls...

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