Brussels Airlines in 2020

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ticketbuyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by ticketbuyer »

Nationalise SN and merge it with Alitalia. 2 well-positioned hubs and most of Europe within 2 hours.
Like the old KLM-Alitalia venture.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=bru-fco&R= ... =wls&DU=km

LJ
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by LJ »

Boavida wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 23:27 In any case, there has to be a deal on MONDAY and not a day later. All these rumours about bankruptcy are deadly for the image of SN (or any company in this situation).

No one is going to book a flight with an airline that 'seems' on the verge of bankruptcy. This uncertainty has to stop now.
Nothing is going to happen till Thursday when the LH Group shareholders decide on LHs fate and thus also SNs fate. Only if Mr. Thiele, LH and the German government come to deal prior to the vote, the fate of SN will be known. However, anything before Thursday is probably not goods news as Mr. Thiele apparantly doesn't like both SN and OS.
Passenger wrote: 20 Jun 2020, 22:54 Indeed. The fact that both Lufthansa and Brussels Airlines remain silent, is ennoying some people.
They're silent because LH Group has a bigger problem called Mr. Thiele. Spohr is fighting to get LH out of the hands of Mr. Thiele as it jeopardizes the deal he made with the German government. Thats far more important than negotiations with the Belgium government about SN. The Belgian government probably understands that it doesn't make any sense to deal woth a company [LH] which is close to bankruptcy or close of losing control to a shareholder which isn't known for his sympathy towards SN. Everything is on hold right now thanks to Mr. Thiele.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Indeed, it seems that the Dutch have cultural differences with most of Europe, as can be seen in the current EU discussions on assistance to countries hit by the coronavirus. Aviation is no different.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

sn26567 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 16:49 Indeed, it seems that the Dutch have cultural differences with most of Europe, as can be seen in the current EU discussions on assistance to countries hit by the coronavirus. Aviation is no different.
That isn't much of a problem when you're in a good position. Applies to the Dutch government as the richest decent size EU-country of mainland Europe, and KLM as one of the most efficient European flag-carriers. When you have cultural differences and are in bad shape you have a problem.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

Boavida wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 23:27 In any case, there has to be a deal on MONDAY and not a day later. All these rumours about bankruptcy are deadly for the image of SN (or any company in this situation).

No one is going to book a flight with an airline that 'seems' on the verge of bankruptcy. This uncertainty has to stop now.
It is not only that which destroys the image ... the "voucher" nicknames which have been awaiting activation for a month, A MONTH !!! allocated but not activated and which cannot be used. At least AF and KL were on the ball...

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

737MAX wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 10:38
Flanker2 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 09:08
We are talking about low pay jobs, a majority of whom are getting less than Horeca, crews earning less than industry standards, with no ability to conduct a normal social or family life, with higher risk to health, without job security or future prospects.
Is Lufthansa actually saving these 4000 people by keeping them employed? Wouldn't they be better off working for other airlines or in different sectors?

Ermm... which other jobs? Not a single pax airline is hiring and pretty much every pax airline is decreasing the conditions as well.
SN might not be the best airline to work for, but it's also not *that* bad and there won't be anything better anytime soon.

A majority of SN staff is on unemployment benefits and will be for a while, regardless of whether the current SN survives or goes bankrupt.
So Lufthansa is not really saving them, when these people could get unemployment benefits anyway until the travel market picks up and they can re-enter it to work for other airlines with better T&C's or even other sectors that pay better.
So even if SN owned by LH goes under, there will be a new SN, a nationalized Air Belgium, a new Jetair, Easyjet Belgium, an expanded Ryanair, to hire these people at better conditions and with better job security than if they keep the current SN alive with government money.

If the government is willing to hand out 390 Millions to Lufthansa, it makes more sense to give each SN employee 100.000 EUR in exchange for accepting the job loss and having to wait until the void is filled by other airlines, or finding a new job in a different sector.
That would help the SN employees more than giving it to Lufthansa so that they can burn it on flying empty planes and aircraft leases, and those employees are more likely to consume that cash within the economy, so it makes way more sense.
I don't see how it's more digestible to give all that taxpayer money to corporations when the ones who are hurting are the consumers. If we don't fund the economy from the bottom up, we won't be able to get out of this deflationary supercycle.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

The government is not handing out 290 or 390 million euros, depending on the sources. It is a loan that will have to be repaid. Repayment might be difficult, but in the 2008 crisis, it has been shown that the government made big profits on its investments in financial companies. Why not again in aviation?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

sn26567 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 18:24 The government is not handing out 290 or 390 million euros, depending on the sources. It is a loan that will have to be repaid. Repayment might be difficult, but in the 2008 crisis, it has been shown that the government made big profits on its investments in financial companies. Why not again in aviation?
Let's jog some memories.
How much of the 125 Millions start-up loan did SN repay?
Only 50 Million, and little of it since LH took part ownership, the other 75 Million were lost as Lufthansa demanded that the government make it go away.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/be ... ~aaf427d3/

SN will burn through those 390 Millions fairly quickly under the current circumstances.
Don't expect to see a penny being repaid, ever.
Let's not be too naive...

Shonix
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:

https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591

Flanker2, were you part of the editorial board? 😉

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Shonix wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:30 Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:
https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591
We already had this story a few weeks ago, when the same people published their manifesto in a Flemish newspaper. Their motivation has nothing do with corona, with economics, with Brussels Airlines and/or with Brussels Airport. I have googeled all of the signers. They vary from utopia dreamers to ecologic fundamentalists. Common interest: we hate aviation.

Most of them are very young – many were still university student till just a few months ago.

One of them published an open letter in a Flemish newspaper on 13th January 2020: “any publicity for meat, for cars and for holiday trips should be forbitten”.

One of them tries to re-write the Economics university education because it's focussed too much on... economics, and too little on ecology.

One of them even refuses to use a car: “I only use public transport. Or I walk”.

One of them is a young historian specializing in 12th century urbanization at Bruges.

I abstain from describing the others because I then have to mention political parties.

Their proposal to nationalize both Brussels Airlines and Brussels Airport is not the result of economical, rational thinking. It is surrealistic and ridiculous. Extraterrestrial thinking. Their next demand will be “the airport may open for business Mon-Fri 09h-16h”.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker2 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:22
sn26567 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 18:24 The government is not handing out 290 or 390 million euros, depending on the sources. It is a loan that will have to be repaid. Repayment might be difficult, but in the 2008 crisis, it has been shown that the government made big profits on its investments in financial companies. Why not again in aviation?
Let's jog some memories.
How much of the 125 Millions start-up loan did SN repay?
Only 50 Million, and little of it since LH took part ownership, the other 75 Million were lost as Lufthansa demanded that the government make it go away.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/be ... ~aaf427d3/

SN will burn through those 390 Millions fairly quickly under the current circumstances.
Don't expect to see a penny being repaid, ever.
Let's not be too naive...
So what if they don't see their money back? Having SN go bankrupt means 4000 employees (at SN alone) will get into welfare, and take the same number of indirectly affected jobs as well. At 1500 euro's/month (low estimate), the government will have paid more welfare then it would have paid to SN today, in less than 3 years. On top of that 8000 people more on welfare mean 8000 less who contribute to the system.

That, and the fallout of SN going bankrupt. No more hub fuction for BRU, less flights, less airlines, less frequencies. No one will invest a penny in a very vulnerable company in a very vulnerable sector like aviation, going through its deepest crisis in decades.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

Conti764 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 21:46
Flanker2 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:22
sn26567 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 18:24 The government is not handing out 290 or 390 million euros, depending on the sources. It is a loan that will have to be repaid. Repayment might be difficult, but in the 2008 crisis, it has been shown that the government made big profits on its investments in financial companies. Why not again in aviation?
Let's jog some memories.
How much of the 125 Millions start-up loan did SN repay?
Only 50 Million, and little of it since LH took part ownership, the other 75 Million were lost as Lufthansa demanded that the government make it go away.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/be ... ~aaf427d3/

SN will burn through those 390 Millions fairly quickly under the current circumstances.
Don't expect to see a penny being repaid, ever.
Let's not be too naive...
So what if they don't see their money back? Having SN go bankrupt means 4000 employees (at SN alone) will get into welfare, and take the same number of indirectly affected jobs as well. At 1500 euro's/month (low estimate), the government will have paid more welfare then it would have paid to SN today, in less than 3 years. On top of that 8000 people more on welfare mean 8000 less who contribute to the system.

That, and the fallout of SN going bankrupt. No more hub fuction for BRU, less flights, less airlines, less frequencies. No one will invest a penny in a very vulnerable company in a very vulnerable sector like aviation, going through its deepest crisis in decades.
Hi Conti764,

There are for sure agreements regarding the possible loan. The same like LX and OS.

Let's keep fingers crossed indeed. What is always difficult is that you depend on somebody else or to one shareholder and their mood. They don't care if people will lose their job or if BRU will not be a hub anymore.

But indeed, in case of worst case cenario it will be dramatically bad for BRU. Everybody at BRU, except some ground services and a few admin departments are all on technical unemployment. Everything is empty. Imagine what it will be is SN will go bankrupt? And aviation still on a very low scale? We will speak then about more then 10.000 people who will lose their job.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Anyway nationalising Brussels airlines is a plausible solution point!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

lumumba wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 22:40 Anyway nationalising Brussels airlines is a plausible solution point!
I think everything is on the table now. In this case you can't have only a plan A but also a plan B AND a plan C

Something else which can be important. In case that the government will not make it and new elections will be, and in the case that this government would fail now in this case, uhh la la you will see the end result then....

So anyway, there has to be a result/success. This is too important

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

BTW this Mr Thiele, I don't know if he has a problem wit OS and SN, but he has for sure a problem with CS. According to Thiele CS didn't do enough to keep the boat off from the German government. So in case off, his position is also not sure anymore

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Gentlemen,

I have just deleted a few posts with personal attacks (and also some responses to such posts, sorry for their authors). May I remind you to keep this discussion civilised! All ideas are worth being exposed and discussed, but in no case should that involve an attack on the person who expresses his/her opinion.

I know some of you will never go on holiday together, but that's not a reason to be impolite or worse. Again, keep the discussions civilised, discuss ideas, not persons.

This is the last warning.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Shonix wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:30 Opinion in La Libre Belgique mainly from some Belgian universities’ researchers: ‘Nationalizing Brussels Airlines is the only choice for the futuré

In French only:

https://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/ ... 1bd09d5591

Flanker2, were you part of the editorial board? 😉
I wish!

But let's be serious for a moment.
This crisis is wrecking havoc across our economy and will continue to do so throughout this summer, fall and winter.
It is affecting businesses and consumers across the board.

Once we can start a recovery, one way to create a lot of economic activity and meaningful jobs, fast, is through aviation.
So aviation can and should play a major role for Belgium's recovery.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening under an SN owned privately, especially by Lufthansa, who did not even invest in good times, so imagine in bad times.
Lufthansa would be focussed on limiting losses, but that's not going to help the broader economy of Belgium.

Nationalising SN or even launching a newco is the only option.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 22 Jun 2020, 09:36, edited 1 time in total.

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OO-JFP
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by OO-JFP »

Post by sn26567 » 19 Jun 2020, 17:47

crew1990 wrote: ↑19 Jun 2020, 17:34
Maybe Brussels Airlines and Austrian could join forces. Brussels Airlines focusing on Africa and North America, western and south Europe while Austrian could focus on Asia, eastern Europe and Middle East.

2 bases, Brussels and Vienna, flight between the 2 cities to connect the entire network.
That reminds me the good old times when Sabena had an agreement with Austrian and flew the route VIE-BRU-JFK with 707s painted in Sabena colours on one side and Austrian colours on the other.
The idea looks nice, but it's probably dreaming!
There were never B707s painted in Sabena colours on one side and Austrian colours on the other.
Austrian only leased 1 B707 from Sabena (OO-SJF) for 2 years which was painted in Austrian colours on both sides, OE-LBA.
http://www.skystef.be/B707-B720.htm
http://www.skystef.be/regi/OO-SJF.htm
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8611658
credit to P Scharkowski

OO-JFP

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Conti764 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 21:46
Flanker2 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 19:22
sn26567 wrote: 21 Jun 2020, 18:24 The government is not handing out 290 or 390 million euros, depending on the sources. It is a loan that will have to be repaid. Repayment might be difficult, but in the 2008 crisis, it has been shown that the government made big profits on its investments in financial companies. Why not again in aviation?
Let's jog some memories.
How much of the 125 Millions start-up loan did SN repay?
Only 50 Million, and little of it since LH took part ownership, the other 75 Million were lost as Lufthansa demanded that the government make it go away.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/be ... ~aaf427d3/

SN will burn through those 390 Millions fairly quickly under the current circumstances.
Don't expect to see a penny being repaid, ever.
Let's not be too naive...
So what if they don't see their money back? Having SN go bankrupt means 4000 employees (at SN alone) will get into welfare, and take the same number of indirectly affected jobs as well. At 1500 euro's/month (low estimate), the government will have paid more welfare then it would have paid to SN today, in less than 3 years. On top of that 8000 people more on welfare mean 8000 less who contribute to the system.

That, and the fallout of SN going bankrupt. No more hub fuction for BRU, less flights, less airlines, less frequencies. No one will invest a penny in a very vulnerable company in a very vulnerable sector like aviation, going through its deepest crisis in decades.
I said that those 400 millions would better serve the SN staff distributing the money directly to them instead of using it to "save their jobs" by giving it to Lufthansa.
Lufthansa would use it to pay off foreign lessors, foreign fuel companies, etc.. while they fly Belgians to Portugal or Venice to spend their money there.
If you give it to the staff, chances are high that they will consume it in Belgium and support local jobs.

As for the cost of the staff being put on welfare, too late, they are already on welfare and will be until the traffic comes back entirely, whether you give that 390 million or not. Can't count it twice, we are already subsidising SN.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Flanker2 wrote: 22 Jun 2020, 09:28 Nationalising SN or even launching a newco is the only option.
Not sure about starting a completely newco, but I'm starting to think that nationalising SN would be indeed the best solution.

- drop the leisure destinations, focus on business routes
- invest in long haul
- change company name to Sabena Brussels Airlines (trade name Sabena)

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