Brussels Airlines in 2020

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b.lufthansa
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by b.lufthansa »

The difference between Alitalia and Brussels Air is that the Italian government will do everything to keep them alive. The Belgian government will not, like with Sabena in 2001.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

b.lufthansa wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 08:45 The difference between Alitalia and Brussels Air is that the Italian government will do everything to keep them alive. The Belgian government will not, like with Sabena in 2001.
The difference between AZ and SN is that the AZ staff had the b*lls to stand up to its foreign incompetent owners and call the BS, even if they had to put their own jobs at risk. Little did they know at the time that the government would do so much to keep AZ alive. Renzi/Gentiloni's government was not keen on saving AZ anyway.

Lufthansa is the next Etihad.
They are going to be saddled with huge amounts of debt and losses over losses so the repayment of that debt gets further and further away.

Don't be fooled by the excellent booking levels for the next ten days, a lot of last minute, because of "pent up demand" as people try to get things done, leisure flying to their second homes in the South. But then everything falls off a cliff in early July. If something happens, it will be then.
We'll see a string of failures then, and SN could be one of them. Union agreement or no union agreement.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

If LH ditches SN (let it go bust), can Belgium takeover and nationalise? (I mean technically)
Last edited by Boavida on 19 Jun 2020, 12:01, edited 1 time in total.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

b.lufthansa wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 08:45 The difference between Alitalia and Brussels Air is that the Italian government will do everything to keep them alive. The Belgian government will not, like with Sabena in 2001.
I don't think so.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

saratoga
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by saratoga »

Once again: If and only If SN is going bust, what will happen with the slots???

I would not surprised LH let SN deliberately go bust. But they never wanna leave BRU behind because it would mean extra competition.(and that in these hard times, they can miss that as the pest)

My gamble: they will try to put Eurowings in Brussels at any means.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Some press reports today that LH has the intention to let SN fail as they don’t want to invest nor comply with the Belgian governments demands for state aid.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

sean1982 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 13:01 Some press reports today that LH has the intention to let SN fail as they don’t want to invest nor comply with the Belgian governments demands for state aid.
And as requested by the forumist Saratoga ... what about African traffic rights? I do not think that a German company can so easily replace another carrier. The rights have been negotiated from State to State on specific routes with specific carriers ... So what?

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

nordikcam wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 13:11
sean1982 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 13:01 Some press reports today that LH has the intention to let SN fail as they don’t want to invest nor comply with the Belgian governments demands for state aid.
And as requested by the forumist Saratoga ... what about African traffic rights? I do not think that a German company can so easily replace another carrier. The rights have been negotiated from State to State on specific routes with specific carriers ... So what?
Money makes the world go round. Traffic rights can be renegotiated for a price first. Second, with the corona pandemic still only starting in most of Africa, LH is maybe not that interested in the market for now. A lot of european carriers in the recent years have decreased there presence on the continent there as Turkish and Emirates have been fighting (and winning) strongly on that market.

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

There is a new big shareholder in the LH group whoowns now (pre-dillution 15% of the shares).
And he is not happy with Austrian and Brussels, as they earn no money, so little value proposition with the Group.
So, management would have to keep his wishes in mind as well.

At the end of the day, both Austrian and Brussels are small, collateral brands. The local pride is to big, the revenue potential to small.

By the way, Eurowings Europe should re-start its own operations soon. There was a lot of silence around them, but this entity is bascially the consolidator for the Eurowings brand outside of Germany.

Shonix
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

So what, farewell Brussels Airlines in a couple of months?

I just wonder: would SN be viable as a stand alone airline in the current market? What other national carriers (apart Alitalia) in Europe with a 'similar' network are still alive and kicking (alive for sure, kicking not so much). I would say TAP Air Portugal but not 100% sure...

lucas
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lucas »

In the mean time, union BBTK reports that there will be an agreement between SN and the unions very soon.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

oldblueeyes wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 14:41 There is a new big shareholder in the LH group whoowns now (pre-dillution 15% of the shares).
And he is not happy with Austrian and Brussels, as they earn no money, so little value proposition with the Group.
So, management would have to keep his wishes in mind as well.

At the end of the day, both Austrian and Brussels are small, collateral brands. The local pride is to big, the revenue potential to small.

By the way, Eurowings Europe should re-start its own operations soon. There was a lot of silence around them, but this entity is bascially the consolidator for the Eurowings brand outside of Germany.
Well thank you for enlighting us on the position of LH.
It's nice to see you get real and contradict your own posts from a few weeks ago where you desperately tried to explain why SN belongs under LH.

What doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense.
LH has bigger things to worry about, as it will bleed billions in the coming months and after that.
LH is still in a relatively good position because we are just 3 months into this. Panic is already setting in, imagine what it will be like in 6 or 9 months.

Concerning Eurowings Europe, wouldn't it be better to get things sorted with Eurowings-Eurowings first?
I don't know if you heard, but there's a deadly virus on the loose and EW was already deep in the red before that.
Do you really want to bleed more money? If so, be my guest, why am I giving you an advice?

As for SN, I already explained what needs to be done.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Ansett wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 13:24
saratoga wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 12:35 Once again: If and only If SN is going bust, what will happen with the slots???

I would not surprised LH let SN deliberately go bust. But they never wanna leave BRU behind because it would mean extra competition.(and that in these hard times, they can miss that as the pest)

My gamble: they will try to put Eurowings in Brussels at any means.
It might be one of the mean tricks of CS, to let SN "die", replace it at BRU by EW and offer even lower wages and worse working conditions. SN workers might be tempted (CS knows that) to accept to work for EW rather than to be jobless.

As regards the slots, I presume LH can transfer SN slots to EW. This does not mean that he automatically gets traffic rights between Belgium and Africa, unless perhaps if the sets up a Belgian EW. The question to which I don't have an answer is : what can the Belgian State do in such a situation ?
Can it prevent a Belgian EW to get the traffic rights to Africa ? (I'm tempted to say yes, but I am not sure).

I presume that the current government has not had a lot of time to deal with other problems than the covid crisis, but it might be an option, if SN is grounded, to immediately nationalize Brussels Airlines to maintain the traffic rights to Africa.
The A330's are owned by LH.
Given the situation in Africa due to Covid, LH might have time to set up a small (A330 only) Belgian company, called Eurowings Belgium, patch EW titles on the fuselage and have this Belgian airline, on a Belgian AOC with OO-registered A330's fly from BRU to Africa. The BRU hub could be fed from other hubs on LH, LX, OS and EW, together with the excisting *A-partners.

Pure theoritical, but the Belgian state hasn't much to pur pressure on LH, contrary to the other way around.

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Conti764 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:30
Ansett wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 13:24
saratoga wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 12:35 Once again: If and only If SN is going bust, what will happen with the slots???

I would not surprised LH let SN deliberately go bust. But they never wanna leave BRU behind because it would mean extra competition.(and that in these hard times, they can miss that as the pest)

My gamble: they will try to put Eurowings in Brussels at any means.
It might be one of the mean tricks of CS, to let SN "die", replace it at BRU by EW and offer even lower wages and worse working conditions. SN workers might be tempted (CS knows that) to accept to work for EW rather than to be jobless.

As regards the slots, I presume LH can transfer SN slots to EW. This does not mean that he automatically gets traffic rights between Belgium and Africa, unless perhaps if the sets up a Belgian EW. The question to which I don't have an answer is : what can the Belgian State do in such a situation ?
Can it prevent a Belgian EW to get the traffic rights to Africa ? (I'm tempted to say yes, but I am not sure).

I presume that the current government has not had a lot of time to deal with other problems than the covid crisis, but it might be an option, if SN is grounded, to immediately nationalize Brussels Airlines to maintain the traffic rights to Africa.
The A330's are owned by LH.
Given the situation in Africa due to Covid, LH might have time to set up a small (A330 only) Belgian company, called Eurowings Belgium, patch EW titles on the fuselage and have this Belgian airline, on a Belgian AOC with OO-registered A330's fly from BRU to Africa. The BRU hub could be fed from other hubs on LH, LX, OS and EW, together with the excisting *A-partners.

Pure theoritical, but the Belgian state hasn't much to pur pressure on LH, contrary to the other way around.
Belgian state has the power to deliver slot to Africa. If Brussels Airlines collapse, everything will be granted to Air Belgium or TUI fly.

In my opinion, if bad mother Lufthansa get rids of Brussels Airlines and Austrian. Maybe Brussels Airlines and Austrian could join forces. Brussels Airlines focusing on Africa and North America, western and south Europe while Austrian could focus on Asia, eastern Europe and Middle East.

2 bases, Brussels and Vienna, flight between the 2 cities to connect the entire network.

And put the onboard service to the same standard to ensure a smooth journey for pax.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

crew1990 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:34
Conti764 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:30
Ansett wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 13:24

It might be one of the mean tricks of CS, to let SN "die", replace it at BRU by EW and offer even lower wages and worse working conditions. SN workers might be tempted (CS knows that) to accept to work for EW rather than to be jobless.

As regards the slots, I presume LH can transfer SN slots to EW. This does not mean that he automatically gets traffic rights between Belgium and Africa, unless perhaps if the sets up a Belgian EW. The question to which I don't have an answer is : what can the Belgian State do in such a situation ?
Can it prevent a Belgian EW to get the traffic rights to Africa ? (I'm tempted to say yes, but I am not sure).

I presume that the current government has not had a lot of time to deal with other problems than the covid crisis, but it might be an option, if SN is grounded, to immediately nationalize Brussels Airlines to maintain the traffic rights to Africa.
The A330's are owned by LH.
Given the situation in Africa due to Covid, LH might have time to set up a small (A330 only) Belgian company, called Eurowings Belgium, patch EW titles on the fuselage and have this Belgian airline, on a Belgian AOC with OO-registered A330's fly from BRU to Africa. The BRU hub could be fed from other hubs on LH, LX, OS and EW, together with the excisting *A-partners.

Pure theoritical, but the Belgian state hasn't much to pur pressure on LH, contrary to the other way around.
Belgian state has the power to deliver slot to Africa. If Brussels Airlines collapse, everything will be granted to Air Belgium or TUI fly.

In my opinion, if bad mother Lufthansa get rids of Brussels Airlines and Austrian. Maybe Brussels Airlines and Austrian could join forces. Brussels Airlines focusing on Africa and North America, western and south Europe while Austrian could focus on Asia, eastern Europe and Middle East.

2 bases, Brussels and Vienna, flight between the 2 cities to connect the entire network.

And put the onboard service to the same standard to ensure a smooth journey for pax.
Ditch SN and LH (who has never had any interest in it besides protecting its backyard) and support Air Belgium instead. Transfer the african rights to them and lease a small fleet of short haul aircraft that focuses on feeding, maybe that’s the better solution. I still fear the african market is far from what it used to be and for sure in the coming years.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

crew1990 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:34
Conti764 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:30
Ansett wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 13:24

It might be one of the mean tricks of CS, to let SN "die", replace it at BRU by EW and offer even lower wages and worse working conditions. SN workers might be tempted (CS knows that) to accept to work for EW rather than to be jobless.

As regards the slots, I presume LH can transfer SN slots to EW. This does not mean that he automatically gets traffic rights between Belgium and Africa, unless perhaps if the sets up a Belgian EW. The question to which I don't have an answer is : what can the Belgian State do in such a situation ?
Can it prevent a Belgian EW to get the traffic rights to Africa ? (I'm tempted to say yes, but I am not sure).

I presume that the current government has not had a lot of time to deal with other problems than the covid crisis, but it might be an option, if SN is grounded, to immediately nationalize Brussels Airlines to maintain the traffic rights to Africa.
The A330's are owned by LH.
Given the situation in Africa due to Covid, LH might have time to set up a small (A330 only) Belgian company, called Eurowings Belgium, patch EW titles on the fuselage and have this Belgian airline, on a Belgian AOC with OO-registered A330's fly from BRU to Africa. The BRU hub could be fed from other hubs on LH, LX, OS and EW, together with the excisting *A-partners.

Pure theoritical, but the Belgian state hasn't much to pur pressure on LH, contrary to the other way around.
Belgian state has the power to deliver slot to Africa. If Brussels Airlines collapse, everything will be granted to Air Belgium or TUI fly.

In my opinion, if bad mother Lufthansa get rids of Brussels Airlines and Austrian. Maybe Brussels Airlines and Austrian could join forces. Brussels Airlines focusing on Africa and North America, western and south Europe while Austrian could focus on Asia, eastern Europe and Middle East.

2 bases, Brussels and Vienna, flight between the 2 cities to connect the entire network.

And put the onboard service to the same standard to ensure a smooth journey for pax.
Do you think the Belgian state will play hardball?

Tui is changing itself and AB lacks the resources to take over SN's flights to Africa.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Ansett wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 16:34 Anyway, when you read this, the writing on the wall is clear. The game is over (for SN).
https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... htgarantie
https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-06-18-l ... 20914.html
No need to go to those foreign websites to find the information that we published on our homepage two days ago:

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... guarantee/

And we also mentioned this morning the possibility for Lufthansa to ditch Brussels Airlines that some of you referred to in earlier posts:

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... -bankrupt/

Our homepage is often a source of interesting information!
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

sean1982 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:38
crew1990 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:34
Conti764 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:30

The A330's are owned by LH.
Given the situation in Africa due to Covid, LH might have time to set up a small (A330 only) Belgian company, called Eurowings Belgium, patch EW titles on the fuselage and have this Belgian airline, on a Belgian AOC with OO-registered A330's fly from BRU to Africa. The BRU hub could be fed from other hubs on LH, LX, OS and EW, together with the excisting *A-partners.

Pure theoritical, but the Belgian state hasn't much to pur pressure on LH, contrary to the other way around.
Belgian state has the power to deliver slot to Africa. If Brussels Airlines collapse, everything will be granted to Air Belgium or TUI fly.

In my opinion, if bad mother Lufthansa get rids of Brussels Airlines and Austrian. Maybe Brussels Airlines and Austrian could join forces. Brussels Airlines focusing on Africa and North America, western and south Europe while Austrian could focus on Asia, eastern Europe and Middle East.

2 bases, Brussels and Vienna, flight between the 2 cities to connect the entire network.

And put the onboard service to the same standard to ensure a smooth journey for pax.
Ditch SN and LH (who has never had any interest in it besides protecting its backyard) and support Air Belgium instead. Transfer the african rights to them and lease a small fleet of short haul aircraft that focuses on feeding, maybe that’s the better solution. I still fear the african market is far from what it used to be and for sure in the coming years.
If your last sentence is true, it might become a bigger bill for the Belgian state than agreeing with LH on the long run.

And in such scenario they'd loose every feed from both LH Group and Star Alliance as well and can only rely on p2p traffic.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

crew1990 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:34 Maybe Brussels Airlines and Austrian could join forces. Brussels Airlines focusing on Africa and North America, western and south Europe while Austrian could focus on Asia, eastern Europe and Middle East.

2 bases, Brussels and Vienna, flight between the 2 cities to connect the entire network.
That reminds me the good old times when Sabena had an agreement with Austrian and flew the route VIE-BRU-JFK with 707s painted in Sabena colours on one side and Austrian colours on the other.

The idea looks nice, but it's probably dreaming!

Transferring the African flights to Air Belgium is much more likely.
André
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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

sn26567 wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 17:47 Transferring the African flights to Air Belgium is much more likely.
And then what?

No feed, no network, no fleet, no cash either. Flying from BRU? Or from CRL? Operating two bases?

Pay more to this idea then they'd have to pay to SN under LH conditions?

I guess the Belgian government (as always) is stupid enough to have SN go bankrupt. Again. As a tax paying citizen I'm quite fed up with all those buffoons running this country. But hey, we can each have 12 train rides for free. Hooray!

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