Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

On the other hand.... Swiss wasn't forced to integrate into LCC Eurowings... Years were lost because of this stupid plan.

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bralo20 »

Passenger wrote: 12 May 2020, 13:28 And no double standards please. Air Belgium has just received state aid. Again. Sonaca jas just received state aid. Objections here? None.
Not sure about Sonaca but Air Belgium received money from their stockholders, which includes the Wallonian region, so technically that's not state aid, that's merely a capital infusion.

TLspotting
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by TLspotting »

La Libre Belgique and L'Echo say that a State support of €390M including 25% of Beeline capital has been rejected by Lufthansa.
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bralo20 »

New article from "Het Nieuwsblad" in Dutch: https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf202005 ... bpOsVsM1z8

Belgian government wanted to invest 390 million EUR (for 25% stock), LH declined the offer and stopped the negotiations.

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bralo20 »

TLspotting wrote: 12 May 2020, 17:53 La Libre Belgique and L'Echo say that a State support of €390M including 25% of Beeline capital has been rejected by Lufthansa.
The article: https://www.lalibre.be/belgique/politiq ... 3845d2b534

(in French)

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Sounds bad.... now what ?

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Boavida wrote: 12 May 2020, 17:15 On the other hand.... Swiss wasn't forced to integrate into LCC Eurowings... Years were lost because of this stupid plan.
Swiss was always ultra premium.. all long haul aircraft have a first class on board.SN was... Virgin Express!
ZRH is nearly LCC free, BRU has Ryanair at inside and CRL junk few miles away.

And Eurowings is a lot of ex Lufthansa decentral stations with a newly branded product - so if we compare this to virgin Express, i don't know who is "premium" and who not.

Was it a stupid plan? Who knows? Maybe not accepted by Belgian pride, but looking on the facts, it was rather a huge opportunity on the long haul (Brussels to become the center of coordination for the whole touristic long haul of the group) that is now lost. The center of excellence moved to replicate the Edelweiss model.

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bralo20 »

Boavida wrote: 12 May 2020, 18:13 Sounds bad.... now what ?
If the government stands their ground either LH will have to give in eventually or find funds elsewhere. Or they can let SN go bankrupt in which case the government *might* pick up the pieces for cents on the dollar and nationalise the airline. Or the government can give in and give LH money anyway. Etc...

There are many possibilities, the question is who will give in first. With the current government I have the impression they are going to play it very hard and that LH might have to bow or break before the government does.

Wait and see I guess...

theeuropean
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by theeuropean »

I think they are playing hardball as is the Austrian government - nothing is a done there either or in Germany. I really hope also BRU is playing an active role to help mitigate the situation.

One a final note I always wondered why SN did not cooperate more with SNCB/DB to at least add destinations on their routemap. For example the Brussels South - Luxembourg City Intercity trains could start at Brussels Airport (maybe make them only stop in Namur and Arlon as a faster service).

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

theeuropean wrote: 12 May 2020, 18:29 I think they are playing hardball as is the Austrian government - nothing is a done there either or in Germany. I really hope also BRU is playing an active role to help mitigate the situation.

One a final note I always wondered why SN did not cooperate more with SNCB/DB to at least add destinations on their routemap. For example the Brussels South - Luxembourg City Intercity trains could start at Brussels Airport (maybe make them only stop in Namur and Arlon as a faster service).
There were a project in 2016 for a fast train to Luxembourg, even continuing to Strasbourg and Basel. With a train named "pendolino" having the possibility to go very fast on normal track because it has the possibility to incline in the curve like a moto. I don't know where they are in this project but it involv the 4 railway company of Belgium, Luxembourg, France and Swiss. This could be a nice alternative to go very quickly to Luxembourg, Strasbourg and Basel. A connection to BRU would be even better, same for Eurostar

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Does the employees of Brussels Airlines proposed a salary cut like with Lufthansa?
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

737MAX wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:08
lumumba wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:03 Does the employees of Brussels Airlines proposed a salary cut like with Lufthansa?
You want them to fly for free?
A LH captain with its 45% salary cut will still make more money than a SN captain with his 100% salary............
I understand it was just a question.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bralo20 »

Interview in VTM Nieuws with Decroo:

Stef Wauters (News anchor): It's known that Carsten Spohr asks 8 to 9 billion from the German government but that he doesn't want any governmental input in return. Can we expect the same here?

Decroo: If you don't want any governmental input, you shouldn't ask for financial aid.


Think that was a very clear message towards LH...

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Bralo20 wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:16 Interview in VTM Nieuws with Decroo:

Stef Wauters (News anchor): It's known that Carsten Spohr asks 8 to 9 billion from the German government but that he doesn't want any governmental input in return. Can we expect the same here?

Decroo: If you don't want any governmental input, you shouldn't ask for financial aid.


Think that was a very clear message towards LH...
That's a very good point of view and Lufthansa was never very kind with us it's time to go separate ways.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

As long as SN isn't in liquidation, the current government proposal is more than adequate (100.000 EUR per staff member, 35 EUR per inhabitant :shock: ), so they can sit on that and watch if Germany will give LH the 9 Billions. If LH get the 9 Billions, the Belgian government can keep the offer on the table as-is, and keep the funds for a back-up plan just in case the Germans decide to cut more Belgian jobs or do something silly.

If SN goes into liquidation at any given time, they will have to nationalise it so it's not the end of the world, but the opportunity to revisit the nation's aviation policy. Ie peddle along, or the KLM way.

I think that the Belgian government have done their part with a very generous offer and can now sit back and watch this unfold.

Today's announcement of job and fleet cuts are really an amateur move, it was not necessary to announce this at this time, when so many things are still fluid,unless it's an orchestrated plot to get both the money and job cuts and make this look acceptable politically.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 12 May 2020, 19:38, edited 2 times in total.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

737MAX wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:35
Flanker2 wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:31

Today's announcement of job and fleet cuts are really an amateur move, it was not necessary to announce this at this time, when so many things are still fluid, unless it's an orchestrated plot to get both the money and job cuts and make this look acceptable politically.
Flanker for manager! Have more planes flying around empty for the next couple of years.
What a great idea.
Why announce a 3-year plan when you don't have the funds to stay afloat for the next 3 weeks?

So it's either a stupid attempt at arm-twisting by LH, or political manipulation by LH and government to make a waste of taxpayer money and simultaneous job cuts look more reasonable.

oldblueeyes
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Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Flanker2 wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:39
737MAX wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:35
Flanker2 wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:31

Today's announcement of job and fleet cuts are really an amateur move, it was not necessary to announce this at this time, when so many things are still fluid, unless it's an orchestrated plot to get both the money and job cuts and make this look acceptable politically.
Flanker for manager! Have more planes flying around empty for the next couple of years.
What a great idea.
Why announce a 3-year plan when you don't have the funds to stay afloat for the next 3 weeks?

So it's either a stupid attempt at arm-twisting by LH, or political manipulation by LH and government to make a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money look more reasonable.
Simply. There is no growth or guarantee of becoming big in a shrinking market as a player unable to deliver sustainable profits.

So, if you play the good boy/bad boy game, than the bad boys have to announce the cuts first and than the good boys will play the saving heros.

So, there is a plan for maximum under aid circumstances - this is the max the Belgian markt can get.

If not, there is no problem neither for the local government nor for Lufthansa - they might shrink local operations further, transfer the assets they want to keep to another entity or work towards pax fluxes via other hubs and leave the local shell empty.

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b.lufthansa
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by b.lufthansa »

Rik Daems (VLD) let Sabena go bankrupt, histoire ce répète

ezis_bis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by ezis_bis »

b.lufthansa wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:50 Rik Daems (VLD) let Sabena go bankrupt, histoire ce répète
So what is your proposal?

Give the money to LH, no questions asked.

And next year they close everything, fire everyone, and say a big thank you to the tax payer.
Getting to Rome and Madrid via Frankfurt beckons

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

oldblueeyes wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:47
Flanker2 wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:39
737MAX wrote: 12 May 2020, 19:35

Flanker for manager! Have more planes flying around empty for the next couple of years.
What a great idea.
Why announce a 3-year plan when you don't have the funds to stay afloat for the next 3 weeks?

So it's either a stupid attempt at arm-twisting by LH, or political manipulation by LH and government to make a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money look more reasonable.
Simply. There is no growth or guarantee of becoming big in a shrinking market as a player unable to deliver sustainable profits.

So, if you play the good boy/bad boy game, than the bad boys have to announce the cuts first and than the good boys will play the saving heros.

So, there is a plan for maximum under aid circumstances - this is the max the Belgian markt can get.

If not, there is no problem neither for the local government nor for Lufthansa - they might shrink local operations further, transfer the assets they want to keep to another entity or work towards pax fluxes via other hubs and leave the local shell empty.
I think that the profitability of airlines is overrated.

What good are profits when the most profitable aviation group in Europe needs government support at the first signs of a little crisis? This crisis started 2 months ago and Lufthansa is already knocking at their government's door after 10 years of straight profits.
So what was the purpose of their existence for the past 10 years if it's all about the profitability and they have nothing to show for it 2 months into a crisis?

Airlines are an important tool for trade, employment and general economic development.
We don't care if the national railways are not profitable, so why would airlines have to be profitable?
The UAE, Qatar, China, India, Vietnam and many other countries heavily subsidise their airlines to stimulate economic development in their countries, so what's the point of pushing for a different playing field where every airline needs to be privately owned and profitable?

All the government bailouts around the world are proof that a self-sustaining airline industry is a utopia and that this idea of private and profitable airlines only works for their managers and shareholders, but for no one else.
It doesn't work for the staff, it doesn't work for the taxpayers, it doesn't work for the travelling public.

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