Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Bralo20
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Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 13:48

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bralo20 »

sn26567 wrote: 12 May 2020, 12:07 Exactly. SN wants to focus on business destinations and on long-haul feeder routes. But this does not exclude tourist destinations, some of which (the most profitable ones) will be maintained.
From what I heard in the press conference the main focus seems to be business, so it seems that SN is shifting towards the LH and LX strategy and may become a more high quality carrier. But guess we'll have to wait and see.

TLspotting
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by TLspotting »

HQ_BRU_Lover wrote: 12 May 2020, 11:54 Pretty sure that quite some Thomas Cook destinations and secondary cities are in the 22 destinations to be reduced. This news is no surprise at all to me but thoughts are with the employees who are giving everything they can day and night.

Maybe I should become more local minded myself as well and always choose SN for EU-travel as of now, if that would help them.
Dieter Vranckx says that many routes due to Thomas Cook bankruptcy will be scrapped.
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

Bel33
Posts: 135
Joined: 18 Feb 2012, 18:36

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bel33 »

Two questions for those who had more information:
Has SN management referred to state aid and is this aid accounted for in the restructuring plan?
What is the stake of the sole shareholder LH?

Bralo20
Posts: 1448
Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 13:48

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bralo20 »

b.lufthansa wrote: 12 May 2020, 12:09 Daar is 'm zene :roll:
He has a point regarding LH. You just can't expect the Belgian government giving out a couple of hundred million EUR (even if it are loans) and then having LH using those funds to benefit LH. LH never was a good parent for SN and so it's quite understandable that they want guarantees that SN will keep it's profitable routes and is being treated like a equal partner in the group and not like the ugly duck which they didn't know what to do with before.

ezis_bis
Posts: 233
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by ezis_bis »

sean1982 wrote: 12 May 2020, 12:16 I think he is actually doing well. Both trying to get the best for the company (job loss and a shrink in fleet was inevitable) and also protecting our tax money by asking for hard promises from LH. If they really want BRU and SN let them prove it.
I agree.
At this point, more than ever, LH needs to show some commitment before giving them money.
If not, nothing stops them from changing the plans and scrap more planes/routes next year and the year after that.
I still have no clue what the 'growth' is that LH has in mind, I think that's key

TLspotting
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by TLspotting »

SFT and SFZ should leave the fleet, as they are both the oldest A330s at Beeline.

Wilmès to meet De Croo and Muylle in the afternoon.
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

Matt
Posts: 137
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Matt »

Sai wrote: 12 May 2020, 11:35
Boavida wrote: 12 May 2020, 11:18VRT reports:
(...)
They also said they want to grow again after this crisis and want a long haul fleet of 12 planes in 2024. The A321LR is mentioned for this.
Long haul with single aisle A321LR? Oh my :o and that's in the best scenario...
Long haul with single aisle A321LR: might work tough. I am not big fan of the idea either you know.

But to North America it might work. TAP is already doing it.

TLspotting
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by TLspotting »

Matt wrote: 12 May 2020, 12:27
Sai wrote: 12 May 2020, 11:35
Boavida wrote: 12 May 2020, 11:18VRT reports:
(...)
They also said they want to grow again after this crisis and want a long haul fleet of 12 planes in 2024. The A321LR is mentioned for this.
Long haul with single aisle A321LR? Oh my :o and that's in the best scenario...
Long haul with single aisle A321LR: might work tough. I am not big fan of the idea either you know.

But to North America it might work. TAP is already doing it.
+ Air Transat from Canada.
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

Passenger
Posts: 6862
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

It's politicians who will approve the state aid to Brussels Airlines, and it is politicians who will regulate the state aid to Brussels Airlines. So the tweet from Alexander De Croo is very relevant and on topic now.

What is remarkable in that tweet from half an hour ago, is the milder tone. De Croo is not asking for "staalharde garanties" anymore, like he did the past days. He seems to understand that no airline, no company, no employer can give that.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Bralo20 wrote: 12 May 2020, 12:15
From what I heard in the press conference the main focus seems to be business, so it seems that SN is shifting towards the LH and LX strategy and may become a more high quality carrier. But guess we'll have to wait and see.
Finally I would say. Stop the competition with LCC and focus on the higher segment.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

The tweet from Alexander De Croo is dangerous for Belgian aviation. Lufthansa doesn't know today how big the corona damage will be for themselves and for Brussels Airlines. So they cannot guarantuee anything. Actually, this mornings' meeting contradicts with De Croo's previous demand "no job losses". What now, De Croo?

And no double standards please. Air Belgium has just received state aid. Again. Sonaca jas just received state aid. Objections here? None.

And finally, stop the hypocrisy please with "it's taxpayers money". All Belgian airlines are illegally withholding Millions of deposits and refundables from passengers and travel agents.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

In principle, people on furlough / temporary unemployment can just stay there until demand is restored, so no need at all to fire them, it costs the airline very little to do so. There is hence no excuse for firing people, as long as everybody agrees to be partially on government payroll and have less at the end of the month.
I think that it would be pathetic if Belgium ends up giving 290 million in loans (or whatever millions at all) for a company that is planning to fire people.
But hey, Belgium has been pathetic before so who knows?

Gustin is a very open-minded person. So I doubt that he is seeking revenge for his personal dismissal.
But Gustin is a patriot and he can surely not accept the fact that SN was being turned into Eurowings after everyone gave their 200% to make ends meet.

Lufthansa was supposed to meet an agreement with Germany by yesterday. The fact that this is continuing for so long proves that there is a problem. Governments are trying to help out where managements failed to de-risk their companies. Spohr was not prepared for a pandemic but is acting without humility.
I doubt that Spohr will come to Brussels tomorrow when he has much bigger potatoes to peel in Germany.
290 million are peanuts compared to the 9 billions he's trying to get from Berlin.

Gustin knows what he can do if he gets sufficient funds and control over decision-making.

So yes to Lufthansa if they give guarantees on paper. But today's announcement of job cuts goes in the totally opposite direction. This was not the right time to announce this clear provocation from the Lufthansa Group.

What should happen is a nationalisation lead by Gustin, as described in previous posts.
But this being Belgium, based on history, they're going to give Spohr a blank check, with a heart drawn on it and a thank you note for keeping 3000 out of 4000 jobs...

Jetter
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Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

longwings wrote: 12 May 2020, 09:21The connecting traffic from North America (don't forget Canada) is indeed "that big." Brussels would not have had six daily flights to North America without African connections. It is not because of the demand to Belgium alone that United is planning to resume three daily flights as early as July (and Frankfurt could handle all their European connections).
I don’t see the number of United flights as proof of connecting traffic. Belgium has a large O&D to the USA and United is the main carrier. Also AMS has a comparable catchment area and had more United destinations, without connections on the European side.

Jetter
Posts: 478
Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

737MAX wrote: 12 May 2020, 12:17 1000 jobs will be gone soon, and most of the reactions are about the fleet & destinations that will be scrapped (or worse; the little personal idea of flying long haul in a twin aisle aircraft).

Pathetic.
This isn’t a union forum: that it’s more about the network and fleet is only logical. Doesn’t mean people don’t care about jobs lost but that are other places to discuss how sad it is that many people lose their job during this crisis.

I for one think about the long term prospects for the Belgian economy: a competitive SN is better than an ailing SN with too many employees; you can’t keep (many high payed) SN employees employed now if you know there is simply no work for them in the coming year.

I’m disappointed that SN staff didn’t make an offer to accept lower wages as many European colleagues have. Planes and fuel have become much cheaper so wages will make up a much larger part of expenses post-Corona and it would seriously help to recover. But this doesn’t surprise knowing the attitude of unions in Belgium. :(

The good thing is that now the demand of no job losses is moot, the government and LH can agree about state aid with the prospect of future growth when Corona is over.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: 12 May 2020, 13:28 The tweet from Alexander De Croo is dangerous for Belgian aviation. Lufthansa doesn't know today how big the corona damage will be for themselves and for Brussels Airlines. So they cannot guarantuee anything. Actually, this mornings' meeting contradicts with De Croo's previous demand "no job losses". What now, De Croo?

And no double standards please. Air Belgium has just received state aid. Again. Sonaca jas just received state aid. Objections here? None.

And finally, stop the hypocrisy please with "it's taxpayers money". All Belgian airlines are illegally withholding Millions of deposits and refundables from passengers and travel agents.
I am happy the government (its not like De Croo decides everything) is protecting our tax money. There is no hypocrisy there. They are public funds and shoud be used wisely. Not saying SN shouldnt get any money regardless, but if no hard garantuees from LH it should be significantly less then when they make real commitment towards SN and BRU.

oldblueeyes
Posts: 91
Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Try all to be realistic.

The whole industry is adjusting downwards between 20 and up to 40% (see what's happening at SAS). With the bad profitability in good years in the neck, for SN the game was line a 20%+X question, rather 30% plusX as Reboot was expected to generate 10% cuts. Luckily the wet leases were offsetting some of the adjustments, as sad this is for their employees, if we are honest to the end.

All in one there is not much unexpected announced - the remaining 332 were anyhow supposed to leave the fleet 2021 and 2022.

It is of course logic that politics will try as always to play the "good boys" game and let the company announce the hard cuts, first. But looking to the signals from the EU regarding state roles, already agreed deals like in Switzerland without any state own stakes, the point of an agreement is now there.

If this won't come to the level to be signed, further cuts will follow - what SN was presenting today is the best recovery scenario. There is no place for whatever dreams of 321LR, expansions etc for the coming 3-4 years, regardless what the press says.

Boavida
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Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 23:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Very interesting video about the current situation (conversation between 2 VRT journalists): https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2020/05/12 ... ngsingree/

According to Riadh Bahri (aviation specialist VRT) the Swiss government has made a bailout deal with the LH Group (a loan) with some hard guarantees about the future of Swiss. If LH fails to comply with these guarantees, the Swiss will get shares of LH Group.

Why is this possible for the Swiss and (for now) not possible for the Belgians?

De Croo just announced that the negotiations with LH are "very difficult".... https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/al ... ce=dlvr.it

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote: 12 May 2020, 13:41 In principle, people on furlough / temporary unemployment can just stay there until demand is restored, so no need at all to fire them, it costs the airline very little to do so. There is hence no excuse for firing people, as long as everybody agrees to be partially on government payroll and have less at the end of the month.
Maybe in Flanker Country it's "untill demand is restored". But in this country, the temporary unemployment "because of overmacht / force majeure" has just been been extended till 30/06/2020. Maybe it will be extended again then, but I guess that the RVA/ONEM will then investigate each case. And as you know, they don't investigate files right now when "corona" is mentionned as reason for the force majeure/overmacht.

There is possibility for "temporary unemployment company in distress", but in our country it is limited to 16 weeks (full) or 26 weeks (partial). I don't think it can be cumulated with previous "corona overmacht/force majeure unemployment" - so it leaves Brussels Airlines with just a few weeks extra relief (and the CAO may even state that it's less then 16/26). Given IATA's prognosis, aviation will be in trouble for a few years.

Passenger
Posts: 6862
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Boavida wrote: 12 May 2020, 16:10 Very interesting video about the current situation (conversation between 2 VRT journalists): https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2020/05/12 ... ngsingree/

According to Riadh Bahri (aviation specialist VRT) the Swiss government has made a bailout deal with the LH Group (a loan) with some hard guarantees about the future of Swiss. If LH fails to comply with these guarantees, the Swiss will get shares of LH Group.

Why is this possible for the Swiss and (for now) not possible for the Belgians?
Why not?
The reason has been posted on the homepage here on 19th March 2020:
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... -for-2019/

Jetter
Posts: 478
Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Boavida wrote: 12 May 2020, 16:10 Very interesting video about the current situation (conversation between 2 VRT journalists): https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2020/05/12 ... ngsingree/

According to Riadh Bahri (aviation specialist VRT) the Swiss government has made a bailout deal with the LH Group (a loan) with some hard guarantees about the future of Swiss. If LH fails to comply with these guarantees, the Swiss will get shares of LH Group.

Why is this possible for the Swiss and (for now) not possible for the Belgians?
The Swiss had a much better negotiation position as Swiss was much more profitable before Corona and they pay much more money than is being discussed for SN.

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