Brussels Airlines in 2020

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theeuropean
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by theeuropean »

Some more news: De Croo states that if they bailout SN they also expect the shareholders to pump money into the company as well. He also says that aspects such as employment, climate and other social objectives will have to be taken into account. Furthermore, he states that it is also essential for the government to provide a clear future perspective for any assistance to the airline. "After the crisis, Brussels Airlines must be able to grow again as a 'home carrier' of Belgium and form a crucial link for Brussels as an international hub."

Link: https://www.hln.be/geld/economie/de-cro ... %3D1445329

Ps. I google translated from Dutch, if there is something wrong or a misinterpretation feel free to change/correct.

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Well, the situation is a little bit more complex.

From some political voices the credits should have a 9% interest rate, what is far above market rate and the state should have 25% shares and some local voices want Lufthansa to be active in Berlin ( where they were not allowed to fly till 1990, thus not a kind of "home" for the carrier).

The major point is that controlled insolvency as case can help Lufthansa to sort out without a lot of trouble many legacy issues from the past:

- the "control" of the mainlije pilots about all aircraft flown with LH logo ( and basically the reason for all new Germanwings, Eurowings etc subbrands)
- 6 bn EUR pension scheme provisions - pilots still aev to retire with 60, on the other hands they sued and won a court case to be allowed to work till 65
- some other contractslike hedging that are currently burning cash could be also terminated etc.

So basically the scenario would be similar to Condor. Independent management, more freedom to adjust and redisgn the company at market realities and thus keeping as much as possible undiluted shareholders equity.

Basically, it is a "you can't have the cake and eat the cake" situation. If economic performance and redesign of the business is key, insolvency under own regime is the best solution - but it comes at cost of lay offs and heavy re-design the structure (something that isn not very German). If maintaining emplyoment is key, this would go via state aid - but than, why should the state get a share for sustainig something that is a political decision,like maintaining a certain employment level?

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Here's a nice answer for the frustrating and ignorant Journalist Etienne de Callataÿ.
https://m.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20200428_04937822

For me De Standaard is the best newspaper in this country!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Beyond paywall so maybe better a small summary of that answer otherwise we still know anything more and is your reply pointless ;)

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CTBke
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by CTBke »

lumumba wrote: 29 Apr 2020, 11:27 Here's a nice answer for the frustrating and ignorant Journalist Etienne de Callataÿ.
https://m.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20200428_04937822

For me De Standaard is the best newspaper in this country!
can you give a small summary of the article? as the best newspaper in the country has a restricted access :-)
Citybird
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Darjeeling
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Darjeeling »

Flights are further suspended until June 1st. No surprise here, there are just no bookings to justify a restart.

Some cargo-only flights might take place towards Africa as from next week.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

destandaard.be summarized.

government still pump money into a German airline? "A drama like Sabena should be avoided."

Brussels Airlines, too important to drop



FROM OUR EDITOR CORNEL DELBEKE

BRUSSELS "I experienced the drama with Sabena up close. It took years for the airport to overcome that bankruptcy. We shouldn't let that happen again. "A source at Brussels Airport leaves no doubt about it: Belgium cannot afford to drop Brussels Airlines.


The government is convinced of the strategic importance of aviation and wants to support the company.

"It is a delusion that you like
airport in the highest class can play without home carrier 'WOUTER DEWULF Transport economist UA

Transport economists Eddy Van de Voorde and Wouter Dewulf (UA) laugh the latter away. Brussels Airlines today accounts for about 40 percent of the passengers in Zaventem and no one will take that place, it says.

The fact that Brussels Airlines does operate those flights today is because passengers from all over Europe can switch to much more profitable intercontinental flights in their home base in Brussels.
If Brussels Airlines were to drop out, the Japanese airline ANA would not be able to fill its daily flights to Tokyo with Belgians flying to the Far East, for example.

In this way, Brussels Airlines turns Zaventem into an international hub. "It is a delusion that you can play as an airport in the highest class without a home carrier," says Dewulf. Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt and London are already trying to snatch international passengers from Brussels.



Arnaud Feist, the CEO of Brussels Airport, also calls the role of Brussels Airlines "crucial for the survival of the airport".

According to Eddy Van de Voorde, Belgium should not underestimate the role of Brussels Airlines. "Belgium has two assets: brains and logistics location. If you destroy the latter, we will also lose the brains. "
Last edited by lumumba on 29 Apr 2020, 12:36, edited 4 times in total.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by luchtzak »

Lumumba,

You are not allowed to copy/paste entire articles. You should summarize. Please change accordingly.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

lumumba wrote: 29 Apr 2020, 11:27 Here's a nice answer for the frustrating and ignorant Journalist Etienne de Callataÿ.
https://m.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20200428_04937822
Etienne de Callataÿ is not a journalist, but an economist.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Darjeeling wrote: 29 Apr 2020, 11:59 Flights are further suspended until June 1st. No surprise here, there are just no bookings to justify a restart.
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... il-1-june/
André
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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

sn26567 wrote: 29 Apr 2020, 12:30
lumumba wrote: 29 Apr 2020, 11:27 Here's a nice answer for the frustrating and ignorant Journalist Etienne de Callataÿ.
https://m.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20200428_04937822
Etienne de Callataÿ is not a journalist, but an economist.
But also writing in newspapers regularly so also a journalist!
Anyway has a economist it makes it even worse.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

FLYAIR10
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by FLYAIR10 »

by Darjeeling » 29 Apr 2020, 11:59
Flights are further suspended until June 1st. No surprise here, there are just no bookings to justify a restart.

Some cargo-only flights might take place towards Africa as from next week.
If we may believe the Lufthansa-Cargo schedule there would have been a flight (SN1031) planned for next Friday 1/5/2020 by A330-300 to Monrovia and Kinshasa. ETD BRU: 08.30 LT.
But... already cancelled on the Brussels airport website in the meantime.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Ansett wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 21:43 https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-bank ... oceedings/
From what I read in the German press (my German is not excellent, but fairly good), CS wants unconditional State aid (no seats on the Board of Directors or Supervisory Board in exchange for billions of aid). CS would prefer to file for bankrupcy if he does not get unconditional State aid, which could enable him to launch a leaner airline with temporarily less aircraft, lower wages for all staff (from pilots to the already lowest paid employees), downgraded working conditions and which would enable him to get rid of some of the heaviest liablilities (debts, pensions, miles in the loyalty programme etc...)
I have copy/pasted that article you have linked to, but with some words deleted. This is what remains: “…Lufthansa is reportedly… it appears… as reports today suggest… it appears this is… According to… Notably, it is expected… The publication states that… As reported by Reuters… it could actually… The type of scheme that could come into play… With the details of the bailout agreement set to be unveiled later today, it should start to become clear… Although some might think…”
Conclusion: only guesses and assumptions indeed.

Same applies for the remark "CS wants unconditional State aid". Untrue! What Spohr really said, is that he rejected Merkel’s claim to have government seats in the Board because then the governments of Hessen, Austria, Switzerland and Belgium could ask the same. Spohr added: then those politicians will interfere with company decisions. The example Spohr used was: “politicians should not decide if we fly to Osaka from Münich or from Zürich”.

Another untrue fact is the remark that Carsten Spohr apparently has said that he would prefer to file for bankrupcy if he does not get unconditional State aid, which could enable him to launch a leaner airline with temporarily less aircraft, lower wages for all staff…”. Spohr has never said that because he knows very good that filing for bankruptcy means that a liquidator then owns the whole company on behalf of the creditors.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Seems LX and WK money is secured....
No seat for politics, no money for shareholders unless debt is repair...
Fair enough ...
But LX was never in a danger zone off being eurowinged..

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Ansett wrote: 29 Apr 2020, 19:57 I was going to reply : no comment 😏 but since my IQ is far below Passenger's one, I would like to ask Passenger to explain what Carsten Spohr means when he says : «politicians should not decide if we fly to Osaka from Munich or Zurich». On a side note, I will add that it is typical for CS to ignore VIE or SN in most of his statements.
Well, it's something in which I can follow Spohr.

Shareholders, executives only care about one thing: making money.

Politicians have another mindset. If you have a politician from let's say Berlin in the board he'd push for Berlin to get a certain route so he could have his photo opp, even if Berlin would be less economical than another possible airport to fly from...

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Yuqu12 »

As much as I think that owing a blocking minority share or even the nationalisation of Brussels Airlines would be beneficial, I seriously doubt whether one of both will happen. Spohr doesn't want governments to become shareholders and LH doesn't want to give up SN to lose its control over Brussels as its backyard. The most realistic scenario would be a loan with guarantees (like employment but perhaps even more importantly the obligation that SN cannot lose its most important routes).
But taking into account the comments of our vice-prime minister De Croo in the Commission of Finance that it is far from certain that SN will receive aid, I'm starting to doubt whether SN will receive it. MoP Vandenbroucke wanted to know whether this would mean that there is the option that the government wanted to let SN go bankrupt but this question wasn't answered.
Today there is the plenary in the Chamber of Representatives with firstly a question round. It will be interesting to see whether someone will ask again whether SN will receive state aid, given the open letter published in De Tijd today.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Yuqu12 wrote: 30 Apr 2020, 10:46 As much as I think that owing a blocking minority share or even the nationalisation of Brussels Airlines would be beneficial, I seriously doubt whether one of both will happen. Spohr doesn't want governments to become shareholders and LH doesn't want to give up SN to lose its control over Brussels as its backyard. The most realistic scenario would be a loan with guarantees (like employment but perhaps even more importantly the obligation that SN cannot lose its most important routes).
But taking into account the comments of our vice-prime minister De Croo in the Commission of Finance that it is far from certain that SN will receive aid, I'm starting to doubt whether SN will receive it. MoP Vandenbroucke wanted to know whether this would mean that there is the option that the government wanted to let SN go bankrupt but this question wasn't answered.
Today there is the plenary in the Chamber of Representatives with firstly a question round. It will be interesting to see whether someone will ask again whether SN will receive state aid, given the open letter published in De Tijd today.
But the open lettre is very positive I don't see the problem here.
After yesterday article in De Standaard where some economists and experts did the same.
Looks obvious to me that they will do it.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Yuqu12 »

Yeah yeah that open letter is very positive indeed, but it changes the circumstances compared to the commission of finance since Tuesday. That's why I hope it is a trigger for some members of the parliament to ask questions to minister De Croo again and to put some pressure on the government.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

lumumba wrote: 30 Apr 2020, 11:49
Yuqu12 wrote: 30 Apr 2020, 10:46 As much as I think that owing a blocking minority share or even the nationalisation of Brussels Airlines would be beneficial, I seriously doubt whether one of both will happen. Spohr doesn't want governments to become shareholders and LH doesn't want to give up SN to lose its control over Brussels as its backyard. The most realistic scenario would be a loan with guarantees (like employment but perhaps even more importantly the obligation that SN cannot lose its most important routes).
But taking into account the comments of our vice-prime minister De Croo in the Commission of Finance that it is far from certain that SN will receive aid, I'm starting to doubt whether SN will receive it. MoP Vandenbroucke wanted to know whether this would mean that there is the option that the government wanted to let SN go bankrupt but this question wasn't answered.
Today there is the plenary in the Chamber of Representatives with firstly a question round. It will be interesting to see whether someone will ask again whether SN will receive state aid, given the open letter published in De Tijd today.
But the open lettre is very positive I don't see the problem here.
After yesterday article in De Standaard where some economists and experts did the same.
Looks obvious to me that they will do it.
Yuqu12 wrote: 30 Apr 2020, 12:30 Yeah yeah that open letter is very positive indeed, but it changes the circumstances compared to the commission of finance since Tuesday. That's why I hope it is a trigger for some members of the parliament to ask questions to minister De Croo again and to put some pressure on the government.
What is great about the letter?
Spohr is begging for money at the same time as demanding that SN remains in the hands of LH.

This is ridiculous, the government should let LH save SN on its own, and if they don't, let it go insolvent and then nationalise it and rebuild it into a thriving carrier like KLM.

The government needs to put an end to the permanent survival mode of SN. Do you really want another 20 years of headlines "SN in trouble", "SN announces restructuring", etc...? We are tired of those headlines.
LH did not invest into SN under the "be profitable or no investments" motto.

LH had their chance and didn't take it, time to try something else.

larsV
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by larsV »

Flanker2 wrote: 01 May 2020, 01:33
lumumba wrote: 30 Apr 2020, 11:49
Yuqu12 wrote: 30 Apr 2020, 10:46 As much as I think that owing a blocking minority share or even the nationalisation of Brussels Airlines would be beneficial, I seriously doubt whether one of both will happen. Spohr doesn't want governments to become shareholders and LH doesn't want to give up SN to lose its control over Brussels as its backyard. The most realistic scenario would be a loan with guarantees (like employment but perhaps even more importantly the obligation that SN cannot lose its most important routes).
But taking into account the comments of our vice-prime minister De Croo in the Commission of Finance that it is far from certain that SN will receive aid, I'm starting to doubt whether SN will receive it. MoP Vandenbroucke wanted to know whether this would mean that there is the option that the government wanted to let SN go bankrupt but this question wasn't answered.
Today there is the plenary in the Chamber of Representatives with firstly a question round. It will be interesting to see whether someone will ask again whether SN will receive state aid, given the open letter published in De Tijd today.
But the open lettre is very positive I don't see the problem here.
After yesterday article in De Standaard where some economists and experts did the same.
Looks obvious to me that they will do it.
Yuqu12 wrote: 30 Apr 2020, 12:30 Yeah yeah that open letter is very positive indeed, but it changes the circumstances compared to the commission of finance since Tuesday. That's why I hope it is a trigger for some members of the parliament to ask questions to minister De Croo again and to put some pressure on the government.
What is great about the letter?
Spohr is begging for money at the same time as demanding that SN remains in the hands of LH.

This is ridiculous, the government should let LH save SN on its own, and if they don't, let it go insolvent and then nationalise it and rebuild it into a thriving carrier like KLM.

The government needs to put an end to the permanent survival mode of SN. Do you really want another 20 years of headlines "SN in trouble", "SN announces restructuring", etc...? We are tired of those headlines.
LH did not invest into SN under the "be profitable or no investments" motto.

LH had their chance and didn't take it, time to try something else.
Well said, and now saying BA is important to lufthansa is ridiculous if you see how they treated it. Old planes, no clear future plans, no willingness to let them expand into markets that are served from Frankfurt,...
They are just keeping BA to keep competition away from their backyard.

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