Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Atlantis wrote: 26 Apr 2020, 22:53
brusselsairlinesfan wrote: 26 Apr 2020, 20:22 Meanwhile, I saw that SN could phase out 10 planes. Does it include the City Jet planes or will they phase out Dome A319s, A320s or even A330s ?
The planes of Cityjet are normally calculated in those 10, or around 10, planes that has to leave the fleet.

More will be announced soon what the strategy will be and about the loan they will receive.

Normally no A330 will leave the fleet as those are the money makers. Probably those planes ex-Thomas Cook and a majority of the A319
Just a small question, Atlantis: is this what you have been told is their idea, or what you think is their plan?

Because the whole industry is aiming for something like a 25% cut and this is reflected also in the numbers of for instance Austrian and others which have come out so far, so it seems to me that what you say for B.air is not in line with that?

I would expect them to cut 2 to 3 intercontinental planes and 8 or 9 for Europe? That would more or less be in line with the general projections of a 25% cut and be in line with others in their group and beyond...

Besides, they've cancelled their Montreal flight and will likely be staying away from the US too given the travel ban by Trump, so where would they use the planes used on those routes on then? European flights?
Are they suitable for that?

Just curious to how you see them, with your insight and knowledge.
Thank you!

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Conti764 wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 20:40
PttU wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 17:51 And if the ACMI-contract of SN to deliver services to EW in DUS is profitable for SN: why not...
Then again, all depends on what LH has in mind for EW post-Covid. LH is in need of money itself and might reduce EW ops to save as much as possible. Who even says EW will be flying long haul once this mess is over?
EW is planned since last year to be reduced to a typical European P2P airline.

Long haul was transferred under the steering of Hansa in FRA and MUC and the aim was to bring there the 343 operated by the Cityline as well.

The questionmark to me is how sharp the cut will be as there is not only a market issue here but also a structural one - SN still needs to come to a point were it earns enough money to sustain itself on the long run.

If we look to Austrian, the decision there was to keep the E95 and get rid of the 319 and focus on the 320. A similar strategy at SN would move a lot of older 3rd oarty leases out of the fleet - the group has anyhow proportionally rather to many 319.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

Inquirer wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 20:52
Atlantis wrote: 26 Apr 2020, 22:53
brusselsairlinesfan wrote: 26 Apr 2020, 20:22 Meanwhile, I saw that SN could phase out 10 planes. Does it include the City Jet planes or will they phase out Dome A319s, A320s or even A330s ?
The planes of Cityjet are normally calculated in those 10, or around 10, planes that has to leave the fleet.

More will be announced soon what the strategy will be and about the loan they will receive.

Normally no A330 will leave the fleet as those are the money makers. Probably those planes ex-Thomas Cook and a majority of the A319
Just a small question, Atlantis: is this what you have been told is their idea, or what you think is their plan?

Because the whole industry is aiming for something like a 25% cut and this is reflected also in the numbers of for instance Austrian and others which have come out so far, so it seems to me that what you say for B.air is not in line with that?

I would expect them to cut 2 to 3 intercontinental planes and 8 or 9 for Europe? That would more or less be in line with the general projections of a 25% cut and be in line with others in their group and beyond...

Besides, they've cancelled their Montreal flight and will likely be staying away from the US too given the travel ban by Trump, so where would they use the planes used on those routes on then? European flights?
Are they suitable for that?

Just curious to how you see them, with your insight and knowledge.
Thank you!
The 10 planes, will be more then 10 planes of course, is besides the 2 A332 who were going out anyway, probably they will go out faster.
City jet planes out and the 2 A320 which they took over from Thomas Cook. The others will be around 5 A319. But to keep an important number of A320 is economical better to keep

A321Lufthansa
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by A321Lufthansa »

Atlantis wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 21:59
Inquirer wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 20:52
Atlantis wrote: 26 Apr 2020, 22:53

The planes of Cityjet are normally calculated in those 10, or around 10, planes that has to leave the fleet.

More will be announced soon what the strategy will be and about the loan they will receive.

Normally no A330 will leave the fleet as those are the money makers. Probably those planes ex-Thomas Cook and a majority of the A319
Just a small question, Atlantis: is this what you have been told is their idea, or what you think is their plan?

Because the whole industry is aiming for something like a 25% cut and this is reflected also in the numbers of for instance Austrian and others which have come out so far, so it seems to me that what you say for B.air is not in line with that?

I would expect them to cut 2 to 3 intercontinental planes and 8 or 9 for Europe? That would more or less be in line with the general projections of a 25% cut and be in line with others in their group and beyond...

Besides, they've cancelled their Montreal flight and will likely be staying away from the US too given the travel ban by Trump, so where would they use the planes used on those routes on then? European flights?
Are they suitable for that?

Just curious to how you see them, with your insight and knowledge.
Thank you!
The 10 planes, will be more then 10 planes of course, is besides the 2 A332 who were going out anyway, probably they will go out faster.
City jet planes out and the 2 A320 which they took over from Thomas Cook. The others will be around 5 A319. But to keep an important number of A320 is economical better to keep
Maybe they can also transfer OO-SNN to EW during the recent strategy change?

Jaguar
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jaguar »

Full la Libre Belgique article:

[...]

Note of moderator: Full article removed and replaced by an English summary hereunder, for copyright reasons, as the article is behind a paywall.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Ansett wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 23:16 Does anyone have full access to the article in the Belgian newspaper LaLibre titled LH met le couteau sous la gorge de l'Etat belge et des salariés de SN (LH puts the knife to the throat of the Belgian State and SN employees) ?
It's an interview of Didier Lebbe, from the Christian union, by journalist Raphaël Meulders. He says that Lufthansa is threatening the Belgian State: "If you don't lend money (290 million €, according to LLB), Brussels Airlines goes bankrupt".

Lebbe wishes that the State provides to money, not as a loan, but as capital to take a share in Brussels Airlines, or even better, in Lufthansa with a blocking minority.

He is against nationalisation, but for a strong tie with Lufthansa: the future is for large groups. However, he wants to save jobs against Lufthansa, which wants layoffs and lower wages.

Not helping Brussels Airlines would open the door to Ryanair or other low-cost airlines with no respect for workers.

Brussels Airlines might be one of the first airlines to come out of the crisis, starting with business flights in Europe and long-haul flights to African countries which have not closed their borders.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

sn26567 wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 23:48
Ansett wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 23:16 Does anyone have full access to the article in the Belgian newspaper LaLibre titled LH met le couteau sous la gorge de l'Etat belge et des salariés de SN (LH puts the knife to the throat of the Belgian State and SN employees) ?
It's an interview of Didier Lebbe, from the Christian union, by journalist Raphaël Meulders. He says that Lufthansa is threatening the Belgian State: "If you don't lend money (290 million €, according to LLB), Brussels Airlines goes bankrupt".

Lebbe wishes that the State provides to money, not as a loan, but as capital to take a share in Brussels Airlines, or even better, in Lufthansa with a blocking minority.
That amount of money should be enough for the whole company, not just a share: LH paid less in better times.
He is against nationalisation, but for a strong tie with Lufthansa: the future is for large groups. However, he wants to save jobs against Lufthansa, which wants layoffs and lower wages.
A smart government would want lower wages as well, it's needed to be competitive. The Netherlands plans to demand lower wages of pilots as well in exchange for state aid i.e. Spending tax money on unchanged pilot wages can't be justified in these times when many people that make less face uncertainty.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

sn26567 wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 23:48
Ansett wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 23:16 Does anyone have full access to the article in the Belgian newspaper LaLibre titled LH met le couteau sous la gorge de l'Etat belge et des salariés de SN (LH puts the knife to the throat of the Belgian State and SN employees) ?
It's an interview of Didier Lebbe, from the Christian union, by journalist Raphaël Meulders. He says that Lufthansa is threatening the Belgian State: "If you don't lend money (290 million €, according to LLB), Brussels Airlines goes bankrupt".

Lebbe wishes that the State provides to money, not as a loan, but as capital to take a share in Brussels Airlines, or even better, in Lufthansa with a blocking minority.

He is against nationalisation, but for a strong tie with Lufthansa: the future is for large groups. However, he wants to save jobs against Lufthansa, which wants layoffs and lower wages.

Not helping Brussels Airlines would open the door to Ryanair or other low-cost airlines with no respect for workers.

Brussels Airlines might be one of the first airlines to come out of the crisis, starting with business flights in Europe and long-haul flights to African countries which have not closed their borders.
What are the options if the Belgian government doesn't want to give 'just a loan' and Lufthansa refuses the Belgian state to take a state in SN or LH proper? Let it go bankrupt and start over?

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Conti764 wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 00:24What are the options if the Belgian government doesn't want to give 'just a loan' and Lufthansa refuses the Belgian state to take a state in SN or LH proper? Let it go bankrupt and start over?
No need to start over. If it goes bankrupt because LH and the state rufuse aid SN will go into bankruptcy proceedings and then can be bought as a whole (or partially while ditching debt) from the reciever without LH having a say.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Jetter wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 00:48
Conti764 wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 00:24What are the options if the Belgian government doesn't want to give 'just a loan' and Lufthansa refuses the Belgian state to take a state in SN or LH proper? Let it go bankrupt and start over?
No need to start over. If it goes bankrupt because LH and the state rufuse aid SN will go into bankruptcy proceedings and then can be bought as a whole (or partially while ditching debt) from the reciever without LH having a say.
So hardly LH putting a knife on the Belgian states throat. LH has assets to loose as well. It was a rather limited investment but an investment anyways and loosing SN would reopen LH's backyard at BRU...

longwings
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by longwings »

sn26567 wrote: 27 Apr 2020, 23:48 Lebbe wishes that the State provides to money, not as a loan, but as capital to take a share in Brussels Airlines, or even better, in Lufthansa with a blocking minority.
A blocking minority in Brussels Airlines for €290m maybe, but in Lufthansa, he is delusional. Even if the price was right (and it is very far from), the German government would never allow it. They'd rather increase their own cash infusion by €290m to keep Belgium out

A Lufthansa golden share restricted to Brussels Airlines matters, that may be within the realm of the possible, provided it comes with clear conditions and timeline for the share buyback.

DannyVDB
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by DannyVDB »

Hi all,

This article is interesting.

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2020/04/26 ... ld-wat-nu/

Of course, CS is stressing the assets of SN to get the 290 million, but still ... I also think that they invested in SN, even if they took over for a small price (e.g. leasing costs of the 7 'new' long haul planes).

He stresses also the importance of BRU of course.

I am however a bit surprised about the relative low amount they ask for. I think we do not see flights for quite a long time and the demand will be dramatically low, also over the summer time (and even after that).

I also think that one of the side-effects will be higher ticket prices, overall in the industry not only ther LH group (since the offer will become much, much lower).

In our (very big organisation) travel ban is extended until 30/06, but I expect that will be extended as well.

Cheers,
Danny

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Lufthansa does not intend to let go of Brussels Airlines

The CEO of the German group sent a letter to Sophie Wilmès.

The German group Lufthansa does not intend to let go of its Belgian subsidiary Brussels Airlines, makes understand the CEO of Lufthansa, Carsten Spohr, in a letter addressed to the Prime Minister Sophie Wilmès, reports on Tuesday VRT.

(French): https://www.lesoir.be/297346/article/20 ... s-airlines

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Yuqu12 »

Interesting to read the twitter of Riad Bahri, author of the VrtNws article: government wants minority of shares for the loan, LH refuses this. Government is also investigating the scenario of letting SN go bankrupt in order to start something new/smaller. Bernard Gustin's name would circulate in that scenario...

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

longwings wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 08:20 A blocking minority in Brussels Airlines for €290m maybe, but in Lufthansa, he is delusional. Even if the price was right (and it is very far from), the German government would never allow it. They'd rather increase their own cash infusion by €290m to keep Belgium out
A blocking minority for 290 mio? :roll:
SN is probably worth less than one million today, Luftie paid 2.6 million for 55% in 2017, since then debts increased and for the moment there isn’t even cash left for refunds.
If the Belgian State provides a 290 million loan, that loan should be guaranteed by LH shares as it will be impossible for SN to pay back that loan.

TLspotting
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by TLspotting »

Yuqu12 wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 09:43 Interesting to read the twitter of Riad Bahri, author of the VrtNws article: government wants minority of shares for the loan, LH refuses this. Government is also investigating the scenario of letting SN go bankrupt in order to start something new/smaller. Bernard Gustin's name would circulate in that scenario...
Something smaller... SABENA fall wasn't enough?
From a friend, Gustin was apparently interested to create something, nearly against Brussels Airlines.

Belgium is the heart of Europe and the national carrier development is important... We can't become something like airBaltic..
Hi. I'm T., spotter and aviation geek. Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Yuqu12 »

I'm just quoting him. But with a minority government of only 38 seats out of 150 in the Parliament and 2 liberal parties, I'm not surprised that this scenario circulates as they were also part of the government during the bankruptcy of Sabena. The ideal scenario would be an agreement between the government and LH so that the government receives a minority share in SN. Otherwise, a loan with guarantees that SN cannot change into an LCC and the prohibition of the transfer of African destinations to Germany plus assuration that SN keeps its activities in Brussels is also an option.
But letting SN go bankrupt and create something new/small will not work. In 2001, there were no LCC's. Today, Ryanair and Easyjet could easily fill the gap or make the concurrence so hard that a smaller/new SN would not survive.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

TLspotting wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 10:12
Yuqu12 wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 09:43 Interesting to read the twitter of Riad Bahri, author of the VrtNws article: government wants minority of shares for the loan, LH refuses this. Government is also investigating the scenario of letting SN go bankrupt in order to start something new/smaller. Bernard Gustin's name would circulate in that scenario...
Something smaller... SABENA fall wasn't enough?
From a friend, Gustin was apparently interested to create something, nearly against Brussels Airlines.

Belgium is the heart of Europe and the national carrier development is important... We can't become something like airBaltic..
What’s important for Belgium and it’s economy are connections within Europe and the worlds major business centers. The extreme focus on Africa might be good for SN but isn’t important for Belgium at all. Trade with all of Africa is only 3.3% of Belgium’s international trade, and that includes many countries SN doesn’t fly to. The Belgian economy would be better served by a smaller airline that focuses on Europe, and missing links like India, Korea and Brazil. Just those 3 destinations would be more important to the Belgium than all African destinations they currently fly to.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Jetter wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 10:30
TLspotting wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 10:12
Yuqu12 wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 09:43 Interesting to read the twitter of Riad Bahri, author of the VrtNws article: government wants minority of shares for the loan, LH refuses this. Government is also investigating the scenario of letting SN go bankrupt in order to start something new/smaller. Bernard Gustin's name would circulate in that scenario...
Something smaller... SABENA fall wasn't enough?
From a friend, Gustin was apparently interested to create something, nearly against Brussels Airlines.

Belgium is the heart of Europe and the national carrier development is important... We can't become something like airBaltic..
What’s important for Belgium and it’s economy are connections within Europe and the worlds major business centers. The extreme focus on Africa might be good for SN but isn’t important for Belgium at all. Trade with all of Africa is only 3.3% of Belgium’s international trade, and that includes many countries SN doesn’t fly to. The Belgian economy would be better served by a smaller airline that focuses on Europe, and missing links like India, Korea and Brazil. Just those 3 destinations would be more important to the Belgium than all African destinations they currently fly to.
Maybe, but initially the question is not what's good for Belgium, but what's good for Brussels Airlines to survive this crisis and I think the African ops have proven to be paramount in the survival of Brussels Airlines.

Later on they can look for expanding beyond their classical market(s). But Jet Airways couldn't make Brussels-India work, SN couldn't, how would a 'new SN' or a even a totally new company make it work?

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Conti764 wrote: 28 Apr 2020, 10:43 initially the question is not what's good for Belgium, but what's good for Brussels Airlines to survive this crisis and I think the African ops have proven to be paramount in the survival of Brussels Airlines.
Are they paramount?
African ops are not viable without connecting passengers, SN has 3 A320s a day flying to Paris to pick up connecting passengers to Africa. Profit must be wafer thin as these passengers only fly SN because they are cheaper than AF.
Do we need to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers money to offer cheap travel between France and Africa?

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