Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

737MAX wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 18:39 These guys should learn to sh**** up when they don’t know what they are talking about. Like Noels should have done when he wrote that crap about the 737 MAX.
346 people have been killed because of designer errors and certification issues with the 737 MAX. Noels' analysis wasn't "crap" at all: as a pilot he knows what he's talking about. Just like his column "the corona bubble" in De Tijd today (L'Echo will also publish it).

So far that zillionth off-topic discussion here. Now, for those who are arranging the funeral of Brussels Airlines: though we don't know yet how much damage corona will cause, Brussels Airlines isn't the only airline in the shit now. For those who haven't seen VTM 19h tv-news: dr. Erik Vlieghe - head of the federal "after corona" task force - has issued an alarming warning: "we won't be able to travel during July-August".

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Passenger wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 22:11
737MAX wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 18:39 These guys should learn to sh**** up when they don’t know what they are talking about. Like Noels should have done when he wrote that crap about the 737 MAX.
346 people have been killed because of designer errors and certification issues with the 737 MAX. Noels' analysis wasn't "crap" at all: as a pilot he knows what he's talking about. Just like his column "the corona bubble" in De Tijd today (L'Echo will also publish it).
I've read it already this afternoon.
Nice column and much of what he says on the way we are currently handling the situation in Belgium is correct IMHO, apart from his last paragraph which is in fact off topic, yet fabulously exposes once again he's a real dogmatist rather than a visionary he sees himself: when he's right about something, he's right not because he has seen the light, but because it just happens to fully match his never changing doctrine (i.e. the broken clock metaphor, in which it's not the clock which gives the correct time, but the time which makes the clock appear to be correct): he just parrots an economic theory which happens to lead to success most of the times under normal situations, yet in extreme situations is of no use whatsoever. To bad he still doesn't grasp that limitation.
Did he really not notice the absolute irony of the needless comment in his last paragraph?
The 2008 crisis was spurred exactly because somebody in the White House decided on purely ideological reasons not to rescue a systemic piece of the global financial industry (i.e. Lehman Bros). Bailing them out for a few billions would have saved the whole world a huge amount of pain and misery, and -most importantly to Geert- tons of money too!

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 22:11
737MAX wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 18:39 These guys should learn to sh**** up when they don’t know what they are talking about. Like Noels should have done when he wrote that crap about the 737 MAX.
346 people have been killed because of designer errors and certification issues with the 737 MAX. Noels' analysis wasn't "crap" at all: as a pilot he knows what he's talking about. Just like his column "the corona bubble" in De Tijd today (L'Echo will also publish it).

So far that zillionth off-topic discussion here. Now, for those who are arranging the funeral of Brussels Airlines: though we don't know yet how much damage corona will cause, Brussels Airlines isn't the only airline in the shit now. For those who haven't seen VTM 19h tv-news: dr. Erik Vlieghe - head of the federal "after corona" task force - has issued an alarming warning: "we won't be able to travel during July-August".
That's crazy I can not believe that I mean there gone be so much bankruptcies we don't live in Disneyland but in a capitalistic world!
Why is our world so sanitized and dead so taboo,in Africa Malaria kils evere year 2 million people but we don't stop the world for that.
Last edited by lumumba on 12 Apr 2020, 10:10, edited 3 times in total.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Inquirer wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 21:50 Seems like the lockdown is well respected, going by the many posts on such a beautiful day! 8-)

Anyway, reading through all of it, I find this to be a very weird discussion, since the only question that matters is really simple: Do you think it a strategic advantage for our country's economy (and the much needed recovery of it post-Corona) to have an operative network airlines, based at BRU?

If the answer is yes, then given the rather unique situation at hands, the obvious best way to have one ready for take-off the very day it is possible once again, is to make sure Brussels Airlines is sufficiently funded.
Setting up a new company from complete scratch, growing an existing one into a valuable replacement of any sort, seducing foreign airlines to expand their operations massively here at BRU or just waiting for a god's gift to magically arrive from abroad and do us all in Belgium a huge favour is going to be a very time consuming and a much much more expensive alternative, let that be crystal clear.

Of course, it you don't think having a seizable aviation sector is of any meaningful importance to our country's economy and its hopefully swift recovery, then you don't have to bother about any strategic scenario at all indeed and you can just concentrate on highly parochial measures for horeca and hair dressers, accepting that tens of thousands of jobs supported by the typical home based activity at the airport will happily be taken over by our neigbouring countries as their national airlines will immediately drain the Belgian market and leave just the point-to-point passengers to the foreign low costs airlines which are found to support only 1/4th of the number of indirect jobs a Belgian airline supports according to the NBB, not to mention that it will be hugely more difficult for our country to attract future inward investment if huge multinationals and small international companies alike find out that the stream of visitors to their premisses in Belgium need to sit in a car, train or plane for at least 1 to 2 extra hours just to reach their sites there, compared to just picking say AMS as their location.
Bye bye many of the meeting and convention centres, hotels, taxi drivers, HQs and all that go with it (office lease, maintenance, cleaning etc etc). It's basically turning a very meaningful European and even global business, lobbying and network centre which Brussels is today, into a provincial city like Bratislava.

Got to be some smart economist to advocate policies which kickstart such a degrading moves indeed, all to save a couple of hundred millions, if I may say so? :roll:
But for sure, some people have such unshakeable beliefs in their life-long ideology centered around the purest of free market mechanisms, that they will defend any dogmatic application of it, even when the free market itself is effectively known to be broken (like it it today, as admitted by the EC!).

Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating just giving away taxpayers money without any guarantees or preconditions whatsoever, but as was mentioned quite a few times before, there are several ways in which you can make sure this is actually turned into potentially one of the best government investments during this crisis. Remember the Fortis case for instance: that turned out to be a brilliant deal in the end!
Besides, if it is all about direct ROI rather than also indirect ROI (which much of the immediate business case is all about, I admit) then I fear to break the news that there have so far been several hundreds of millions of taxpayers money which have litterally been thrown out of the doors and windows without any thinking nor ROI at all, already! One prime exemple is the 202 euro premium to each unemployed person in Flanders to cover the cost of water, gas and electricity for this month, a completely stupid and at present still very often unneeded measure which alone costs us close to 150million! Estimated return of this political santaclaus idea for society, both directly as well as indirectly on jobs, tax income, safeguarding of social security contributions or other benefits to society: absolutely guaranteed ZERO. :oops:
And the price for most patronizing post goes too .,..
people have been posting crap all day (which is not allowed when it’s sunny apparently) so inquirer will swoop in and set the record straight.

You really do think you know it all no? The fact that even leading economists don’t always see it that way doesnt even matter, not to mention that there is probably not a very big “publiek draagvlak” of investing hundreds of millions into a potential fail. Politicians will be held accountable for what they do with our tax money, they better make a good informed decision.

Btw, very respectful you are towards “parochial horeca and hairdressers” or a beautiful city like bratislava. What an attitude :roll:

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

May I suggest a bit more restraint from the TUI representatives, very active in this Brussels Airlines topic? Do I have to remind you that your airline and your touroperator where at extremely high risk too when the travel bans were announced?

TUI Belgium was saved by a Ministerieel Besluit / Arrêté Ministeriel from the federal government (minister Muylle, Economics) allowing touroperators not to refund payments from passengers and/or travel agents. A Ministerieel Besluit / Arrêté Ministeriel of which some people say it's illegal, by the way...

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

It IS illegal... EU confirmed...

But what the heck.. who's following EU rules nowadays..
We close borders, throw away legislations, looking only to ourselves, we only need europe in times we can benefit from it...

CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

cathay belgium wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 11:59 Hi,

It IS illegal... EU confirmed...

But what the heck.. who's following EU rules nowadays..
We close borders, throw away legislations, looking only to ourselves, we only need europe in times we can benefit from it...

CXB
Legal or illegal ?


Sweden, Belgium Win EU Approval to Support Airlines, Airports


The European Commission approved measures from Belgium and Sweden to help the airline industry as it struggles to weather the economic fallout from the coronavirus.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-airports

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Delivering a voucher may be legal, but not offering the choice between a voucher and a reimbursement is illegal. Nothing to do with support to airlines, which is now approved by the EU.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Duke
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Duke »

It looks like more and more airlines are operating cargo only flights with passenger planes (KLM, Swiss, Emirates), some even after removing the seats (Air Canada).
Would this be an option for Brussels Airlines? I always heard that demand for cargo on the African routes was high. Could these operations bring in badly needed cash, since the planes are just sitting empty on the tarmac, and keeping them in storage cost a lot?

Duke

LJ
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by LJ »

Inquirer wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 22:36The 2008 crisis was spurred exactly because somebody in the White House decided on purely ideological reasons not to rescue a systemic piece of the global financial industry (i.e. Lehman Bros). Bailing them out for a few billions would have saved the whole world a huge amount of pain and misery, and -most importantly to Geert- tons of money too!
Sorry to go off topic but this is incorrect. The 2008 was created by the asset bubble of which Lehman was a large victim. By letting this company go down, we may have prevented a bigger one falling. However, the underlying cause was there already there (and some small firms were going down before Lehman).

This crisis is much worse. The EU already asked not to book for Summer 2020, which basically kills the most important time fo all European airlines.

As for your column. Though the general idea is not that bad, the question is always, how big does such an airline need to be? To be honest, an airline like Brussels Airlines adds much more value than a (U)LCC for a country (many, who love low fares, will probably disagree). However, how much does the 4th daily to BCN add? My view, not that much. Thus in its core Brussels Airlines can be considered essential, but parts of it are not. Therefore. we'll see some downsizing (or, as others call it, rightsizing) to what demand actually needs and what adds value. That part can be supported by a government, not the part which is non-essential.
Passenger wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 11:53 May I suggest a bit more restraint from the TUI representatives, very active in this Brussels Airlines topic? Do I have to remind you that your airline and your touroperator where at extremely high risk too when the travel bans were announced?


TUI will get a bigger hit than SN as it will loose out the most important period during the year. Part of that should be considered "essential" though one argue that it's essential for the EU, not for Belgium, Germany or The Netherlands (as they don't add value for a country but more or less distribute money to relatively the countries in Southern Europe).
nordikcam wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 17:34 Last year, at the same time, the Dutch state suddenly entered the capital of Air France-KLM to match the presence of the French state.
Which has nothing to do with the survival of an airline. The only reason that happened was to restore the balance in the AF/KL Group. Moreover, the German state is not a large shareholder in the LH Group, which the French government was in AF/KL. Thus comparing apples and oranges.
nordikcam wrote: 11 Apr 2020, 17:34 SN, would not it be more interesting to draw a trait and rebuild a company which, given its presence at BRU, will no doubt interest another group.
Who? IAG? They don't have the money right now and defending its turf at MAD is more important (aka buying UX).

Duke
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Duke »

Ok, people, I came to this forum to try to get some information about one of my greatest hobbies, aviation and the airline business...
What I read above is enough for me now though...
This is no information anymore.
Although I understand that some of you are working in the aviation business, and that you must certainly face difficult times and uncertainties, the above posts, full of insults and personal attacks, do not provide any useful information to me anymore...
So, you won't be seeing me posting on this forum anymore.

Regards,

Duke

SabenaForever
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by SabenaForever »

Oh hell... sometimes I wonder why I still come here. this is more and more like a forum of personal feuds. I miss the old days ...

SabenaForever
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by SabenaForever »

Duke wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 15:49 Ok, people, I came to this forum to try to get some information about one of my greatest hobbies, aviation and the airline business...
What I read above is enough for me now though...
This is no information anymore.
Although I understand that some of you are working in the aviation business, and that you must certainly face difficult times and uncertainties, the above posts, full of insults and personal attacks, do not provide any useful information to me anymore...
So, you won't be seeing me posting on this forum anymore.

Regards,

Duke

+1

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Could you all, guys, stop personal attacks and discuss on real aviation stuff related to the title of the thread?

I think I am going to delete several posts!
Duke wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 15:49 Ok, people, I came to this forum to try to get some information about one of my greatest hobbies, aviation and the airline business...
What I read above is enough for me now though...
This is no information anymore.
A forum can indeed provide information but not only information, it is also a place for discussions. As long as people respect each other, no problem. The problems arise when some think they can exchange insults when others have different opinions. We shall try to make sure this no longer happens.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

Maybe is a good idea to land this discussion between a few people.

It's not bringing any news, value.

Let's post again when there is real news

brusselsairlinesfan
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Joined: 29 Mar 2007, 14:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

SabenaForever wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 15:57
Duke wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 15:49 Ok, people, I came to this forum to try to get some information about one of my greatest hobbies, aviation and the airline business...
What I read above is enough for me now though...
This is no information anymore.
Although I understand that some of you are working in the aviation business, and that you must certainly face difficult times and uncertainties, the above posts, full of insults and personal attacks, do not provide any useful information to me anymore...
So, you won't be seeing me posting on this forum anymore.

Regards,

Duke

+1
Duke and SabenaForever : please stay !

Bracebrace
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

BCAA has already approved exemptions for TO/LDG recency, simulators and other training requirements.

https://mobilit.belgium.be/fr/transport ... oronavirus

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Airbus330lover »

SabenaForever wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 15:56 Oh hell... sometimes I wonder why I still come here. this is more and more like a forum of personal feuds. I miss the old days ...
+1

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Ansett wrote: 12 Apr 2020, 18:55 Then, let's see what LH does with the other members of the Group. Will SN be treated on equal footing ? That's the main question.
I have my (serious) doubts, as SN was never treated on equal footing by LH (as LX or OS)...

Basically they only care for LX and to a lesser extent OS (as they're German speaking 'brothers'). SN was always treated as the unwanted child.

I really hope they prove me wrong this time. Otherwise, SN could look for a more welcoming and engaging Airline Group.


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