Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 10:39
Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 10:19 No, you would bring KLM to court as your travel agreement is with KLM not the Dutch Government and they would loose, of course, working for an international company, you know all this.
Do I?

I think the situation is that in such a case, KLM will immediately claim before the lower trade court in The Netherlands they are simply unable to apply both conflicting rules at the same time and so the Dutch trade court will ask the ECJ a "pre-judiciële vraag" to first rule on the Dutch law itself.
Off topic:
Not all, when conflicting legislation exists the job of the judge is to apply the one which takes precedence.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 10:39

I think the situation is that in such a case, KLM will immediately claim before the lower trade court in The N
. Don't see what you see as important here to your point: where's my direct refund option?

Remember you're the one arguing up until a few minutes ago it is an absolute disgrace it now takes a few weeks to be refunded, right? And yet you think it is important in the light of this discussion to point out that a voucher which is not refundable before somewhere in summer 2021 and ONLY on condition the airline cancels the rescheduled flight AGAIN, is an important concession…

Some people here clearly argue with themselves even, as long as they can hit out at the subject of this topic. :roll:
Don’t twist my words to deviate the attention from the real problem: the refusal of Brussels Airlines to refund a cancelled flight. I didn’t say immediate refund.
For the moment SN only offers a voucher, which is lost if you don’t rebook or partially lost if one rebooks for a lower fare. That is a substantial difference with KLM and it is basically stealing money from customers.
In the mean time I took it up with my credit card company, they said they are receiving many complaints and it would probably end with credit card companies withholding payments from airlines which refuse to refund.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 10:52
Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 10:39
Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 10:19 No, you would bring KLM to court as your travel agreement is with KLM not the Dutch Government and they would loose, of course, working for an international company, you know all this.
Do I?

I think the situation is that in such a case, KLM will immediately claim before the lower trade court in The Netherlands they are simply unable to apply both conflicting rules at the same time and so the Dutch trade court will ask the ECJ a "pre-judiciële vraag" to first rule on the Dutch law itself.
Off topic:
Not all, when conflicting legislation exists the job of the judge is to apply the one which takes precedence.
Good to see we have a European constitutionalist amongst us here; the well established legal concept of 'pre-judiciele vragen' to the ECJ can thus be taken out of the treaty of the Europen Union again then.

back to reality -
KLM is not offering me a refund: I can only rebook or take a voucher as you see for yourself on their website; since I have no clue when I'll be able to travel, I took the voucher and will redeem it once the situation becomes clearer. THAT's the reality outside of this forum, sir.

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Yuqu12 »

EU law will prevail. The Commission has issued a document on the interpretation of passenger rights during this coronacrisis not that long ago which confirms that airlines can offer now vouchers and re-bookings, but consumers still have and still will have the right to ask for a refund of their ticket if they do not want to fly anymore in the period proposed by the airlines.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:02
Don’t twist my words to deviate the attention from the real problem: the refusal of Brussels Airlines to refund a cancelled flight. I didn’t say immediate refund.
For the moment SN only offers a voucher, which is lost if you don’t rebook or partially lost if one rebooks for a lower fare. That is a substantial difference with KLM and it is basically stealing money from customers..
KLM only offers me a rebooking or a voucher which is lost if I don't rebook. Period.

I can live with that solution, which is now offered by most airlines: if you want your cash back, it will clearly take time.

No difference whatsoever: you're arguing with yourself, sir.

Poiu
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Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:03
back to reality -
KLM is not offering me a refund: I can only rebook or take a voucher as you see for yourself on their website; since I have no clue when I'll be able to travel, I took the voucher and will redeem it once the situation becomes clearer. THAT's the reality outside of this forum, sir.
Not correct!!!!
The message from KLM is clear, got one myself btw.
Once again a copy/paste:
“If your flight has been cancelled by the airline, your travel voucher is refundable after 1 year”
https://www.klm.com/travel/be_en/prepar ... c=Email#p4
Last edited by Poiu on 07 Apr 2020, 11:46, edited 4 times in total.

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

RoMax wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 21:08
Conti764 wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 20:57
rwandan-flyer wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 20:42 Hi.

Anyone knows, why Brussels Airlines is operating a flight between Kigali and Cologne ? Thanks https://www.flightradar24.com/BEL1042/2451cb66
Repatriation I guess.
There has also been a Lomé-Cologne repatriation flight - I believe for the German government (which isn't that weird as it's LHG, on African stations where LH itself doesn't operate).
Indeed, repatriates from EBB were essentially Germans, few Belgians.
Source : NAS EBB.

H.A.

Inquirer
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Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:39
Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:03
back to reality -
KLM is not offering me a refund: I can only rebook or take a voucher as you see for yourself on their website; since I have no clue when I'll be able to travel, I took the voucher and will redeem it once the situation becomes clearer. THAT's the reality outside of this forum, sir.
Not correct!!!!
The message from KLM is clear, got one myself btw. I copy/ pasted the difference in a previous post.
If you don’t use the voucher in the next 12 months it becomes refundable.
https://www.klm.com/travel/be_en/prepar ... c=Email#p4
Indeed, exactly just like I've said: no refund, only a rebooking or a voucher is being offered by them.

Why are you constantly arguing with yourself, sir? :roll:

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:47
Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:39
Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:03
back to reality -
KLM is not offering me a refund: I can only rebook or take a voucher as you see for yourself on their website; since I have no clue when I'll be able to travel, I took the voucher and will redeem it once the situation becomes clearer. THAT's the reality outside of this forum, sir.
Not correct!!!!
The message from KLM is clear, got one myself btw. I copy/ pasted the difference in a previous post.
If you don’t use the voucher in the next 12 months it becomes refundable.
https://www.klm.com/travel/be_en/prepar ... c=Email#p4
Indeed, just like I've said: no refund, only a rebooking or a voucher is by offered by them.

Why are you constantly arguing with yourself, sir? :roll:
Which part of “becomes refundable” don’t you understand?

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:39 Not correct!!!!
The message from KLM is clear, got one myself btw.
Once again a copy/paste:
“If your flight has been cancelled by the airline, your travel voucher is refundable after 1 year”
https://www.klm.com/travel/be_en/prepar ... c=Email#p4
The only difference is that KLM is clear on the term, but it also denies you the refund for a year.

SN only specifies "Please be aware that, due to the current extraordinary circumstances, it is not possible to process your refund request within the usual time limits." which is vague yes, but still not a denial of providing customers with a refund. That delay can be 3 months, half a year or also a year like KL.

Lack of clarity is the only blame to give here.

And btw, you complain about the limitations of the €50 voucher, but seem to ignore the fact that this is in addition to your rebooking. Not instead of either the rebooking or the refund.

Poiu
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Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:03
Good to see we have a European constitutionalist amongst us here; the well established legal concept of 'pre-judiciele vragen' to the ECJ can thus be taken out of the treaty of the Europen Union again then.
Precedence of European law

According to the precedence principle, European law is superior to the national laws of Member States. The precedence principle applies to all European acts with a binding force. Therefore, Member States may not apply a national rule which contradicts to European law.


https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... M%3Al14548

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

RoMax wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:52
SN only specifies "Please be aware that, due to the current extraordinary circumstances, it is not possible to process your refund request within the usual time limits." which is vague yes, but still not a denial of providing customers with a refund. That delay can be 3 months, half a year or also a year like KL.

Lack of clarity is the only blame to give here.

And btw, you complain about the limitations of the €50 voucher, but seem to ignore the fact that this is in addition to your rebooking. Not instead of either the rebooking or the refund.
The voucher from SN is not refundable, it’s clear: valid for rebooking till April 2021, full stop.
I just pointed to the limitations of the 50€ voucher, it’s only usable if the basic fare of your new booking is more than 50€ more expensive, I would have been nicer to say: covers additional cost up to 50€.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 11:50 Which part of “becomes refundable” don’t you understand?
Please, for your own sake, stop it: it's getting extrelemy pathetic now….

Romax nailed it: you're just looking for things to make them look bad with and in this case it is clearly backfired because contrary to others, they still handle requests for refunds AND in case a voucher is taken instead, they'l give an extra on top of it...
Others like KLM don't offer the option of a refund any longer even and certaintly don't give any extra with the voucher, since they don't have to: it's the only realistic solution they have.

Enough said about it?

Poiu
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Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 12:06
Please, for your own sake, stop it: it's getting extrelemy pathetic now….

Romax nailed it: you're just looking for things to make them look bad with and in this case it is clearly backfired because contrary to others, they still handle requests for refunds AND in case a voucher is taken instead, they'l give an extra on top of it...
Others like KLM don't offer the option of a refund any longer even and certaintly don't give any extra with the voucher, since they don't have to: it's the only realistic solution they have.

Enough said about it?
No need to become personal nor insulting, just stick to facts.
So please provide me a link with refund instructions!
As I posted before, if you follow the refund tab on manage your booking you always end up on the voucher page.
And contrary to your understanding Romax clearly wrote: refunds are not processed for the moment.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 12:04 The voucher from SN is not refundable, it’s clear: valid for rebooking till April 2021, full stop.
Indeed,
because you can get your money back as an alternative if you're sure you're not going to fly and use the voucher...
Or do you have a document stating they will not refund your ticket, like KLM is now saying?
With about 1M passengers flying with them each month, they must be overwhelmed with files, so it may take a (long) while for them to be cleared, but at least they are not saying they are not going to refund you, like KLM is doing based on a (new?) Dutch rule.
Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 12:04I just pointed to the limitations of the 50€ voucher, it’s only usable if the basic fare of your new booking is more than 50€ more expensive, I would have been nicer to say: covers additional cost up to 50€.
Like any commercial gratuity, it comes with certain condititions on its use, indeed; what a shame.
Others like KLM - AF don't give you anything… and somehow you seem to like that?
:roll:

Seriously, sir...
are you trying to ruin your own reputation here? Keep on going, I'd say.
I'm out: you're discussing a non-topic, with non-arguments, obviously leading to a nonsense debate.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 12:15
Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 12:04 The voucher from SN is not refundable, it’s clear: valid for rebooking till April 2021, full stop.
Indeed, because you can also get your money back as an alternative if you're sure you're not going to fly and use the voucher...
Or do you have a document stating they will not refund your ticket, like KLM is now saying?
I am clearly not explaining myself well, so I will try again, but can I politely ask you to leave insults behind?
My flights (5 in total) are cancelled by SN and I am not interested in the voucher they offer me and which will become worthless next year.
I do understand they are busy and have other priorities for the moment and that a refund can take some time.
However SN doesn’t allow me to ask for a refund.
At least KLM tells me I will get my money back next year.
Last edited by Poiu on 07 Apr 2020, 12:28, edited 1 time in total.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

It's simple really and should end all dicussions. The EU law is clear, all airlines not following this are in breach. Re-imbursment should be offered, without delay. Not hidden in thousand pages. Point. Testaankoop I believe is also on this


https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/ ... ger-rights

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

May I kindly suggest that this discussion on refunds stops here? We now know in detail the opinions of both poiu and Inquirer and any further post on the topic would not add anything new. Thanks for your understanding.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 12:24 My flights (5 in total) are cancelled by SN and I am not interested in the voucher they offer me and which will become worthless next year.
I do understand they are busy and have other priorities for the moment and that a refund can take some time.
However SN doesn’t allow me to ask for a refund.
I am sure you received their communication stating that your booking remains valid and you can get to them right till the end of August concerning your ticket, even if the date of travel is before?

Since you said you hold 5 tickets, you must have received that mail at least 5 times; my mailbox almost exploded the other day, given I had a lot more than just 5 outstanding tickets with them...

If you're not interested in the voucher, it seems you'll have to wait a bit as for the moment there's no automated system for immediate re-embursement indeed...
You can try through the call center or your travel agency though if you want to insist in a speedy recovery: at work we got our money back for all the flights of last month we didn't fly.
And otherwise, be patient: like I came to experience first hand, at KLM it's "d'office" a one year wait now, no alternative option offered whatsoever so it seems to be a general situation we'll just have to live with.

Don't make such a big deal out of it as you've been doing here: nobody is deliberatly trying to rob you of anything nor being exceptionally unfair to you as a customer, given the unprecedented circumstances.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

sn26567 wrote: 07 Apr 2020, 12:39 May I kindly suggest that this discussion on refunds stops here? We now know in detail the opinions of both poiu and Inquirer and any further post on the topic would not add anything new. Thanks for your understanding.
Sorry, my above post just crossed yours.
I fully agree with you, so please feel free to remove it as you wish.

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