Brussels Airlines in 2020

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TLspotting
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by TLspotting »

Poiu wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 16:44
Passenger wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 16:20
Poiu wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 15:45
SN presently doesn’t accept requests to refund tickets of cancelled flights...
General principle with all airlines now: no refunds, only vouchers
Not true, just got a refund from easyJet.
Had an EU claim with SN which should have been paid a month ago, but hasn’t been paid either.
In a general way, lowcost airlines "have enough funds" to refund without any problem, I read somewhere.

Wizz Air on another booking I think let us the choice between a full refund or 120% voucher. We kept the 120% voucher at the end... Still waiting for Ryanair answer, but they have a lot of work as well.

Furthermore, about EU261, my grandparents were supposed to fly on 5 April, and we got the email on 24 March, so 12-13 days before the flight, we haven't got anything more.

Is this crisis not a condition of "exceptional circumstances", to which EU261 can not apply ?
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ZavCity
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by ZavCity »

Hi
I received a refund from CX for my canceled flight this month
gtz
paul

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 16:20
Poiu wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 15:45
SN presently doesn’t accept requests to refund tickets of cancelled flights...
General principle with all airlines now: no refunds, only vouchers.

Which is against your precious law that you always preach. Its NOT a general principle with all airlines btw.

SR20
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by SR20 »

If your flight is cancelled you have the right to reimbursement, re-routing or return, as well as the right to assistance and a right to compensation. Compensation is due if you were informed less than 14 days prior to the scheduled departure date. The airline has the obligation to prove if and when you were personally informed that the flight was cancelled. If this is not the case you can contact your national authority for further assistance.

However, compensation is not due if the carrier can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. The airline has to prove this by providing, for example, extracts from logbooks or incident reports. The air carrier should give this evidence to the relevant national enforcement body as well as to the passengers concerned in line with national provisions on access to documents.

European legislation n° 261/2004 : https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html ... format=PDF

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

They don't deny refund, but are delaying processing refund requests (which is probably a grey zone due to the circumstances) and try to pursuade to rebook to a later date by giving a value voucher in addition to the free rebooking. Seems like a straightforward attempt of reducing the short-term cash-out.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Exactly RoMax. Once the moderators have moved this discussion to where it belongs = the topic "Impact of the coronavirus on aviation", I will gladly clarify.

FACT: airlines are backed by IATA if they delay refunds. This is what Alexandre de Juniac, IATA chief, wrote in his 3th April 2020 blog: "... Passengers have the right to get their money. They paid for a service that cannot be delivered. And in normal circumstances, repayment would not be an issue. But these are not normal circumstances. If airlines refund the $35 billion immediately, that will be the end of many airlines. And with that an enormous number of jobs will also disappear. So what’s to be done? The simple answer is that airlines need time. And that is why I am supporting airlines (and our partners in the travel and tourism sector) in their request for governments to delay the requirement for immediate refunds. We propose vouchers that could be used for future travel or refunded once we are out of this crisis period. This would buy the industry vital time to breathe - surviving the crisis so that they are ready to fly when better days arrive..."

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

RoMax wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 23:07
They don't deny refund, but are delaying processing refund requests (which is probably a grey zone due to the circumstances) and try to pursuade to rebook to a later date by giving a value voucher in addition to the free rebooking. Seems like a straightforward attempt of reducing the short-term cash-out.
YES they DO deny refunds, it’s not the process which is delayed, they simply refuse refund requests. When you click on the refund link, in manage my booking, the voucher page opens.
The 50€ voucher is a bit of a laugh though, it’s only usable if your new base fare is more than 50€ higher than the original ticket, you can’t use the 50€ voucher to pay 49,99€. You only receive one voucher, even if you hold several bookings.
It’s not a grey zone, it’s prohibited by European law to deny refunds for cancelled flights!
I was told as well that SN was, already three weeks ago, unable to pay EU261 compensations due to lack of cash...

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Just hypothetical ( as I hope it won't happen , some good friends working there ) ...

If SN collapse next month due lack of cash, no Luftie actions and an unwiIlling government to save it due to lack of cash , don't want to write a blanco cheque ( for something German in fact ) and a political game...

In these days lots of airlines will have spare planes ... And looking for better possibilities...

BRU still have , a 'smaller' but a demand, no back-up to restart like DAT after Sabena...

What Will happen...

LH invasion of EW , very cynical but who knows...
KLM invasion after tickling with Transavia this year...
FR, EASYJET,Wizzair with a hungarian post Malev trick ?
BA level ?

Dark times ahead... Due a guy eating a bat ! wTF !

Any ideas... as last posts aren't really hopeful and grounding till may 15 with 3 000 000 loss a day... ,We are already on the edge... Start to worry ...

CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781
New types planned : E140

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

Poiu wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 23:33
YES they DO deny refunds, it’s not the process which is delayed, they simply refuse refund requests. When you click on the refund link, in manage my booking, the voucher page opens.
[...]
It’s not a grey zone, it’s prohibited by European law to deny refunds for cancelled flights!
I was told as well that SN was, already three weeks ago, unable to pay EU261 compensations due to lack of cash...
Refunds are NOT denied. But yes they are clearly being demotivated by referring to rebooking and the additional value voucher. If you file a (manual) refund request it WILL be processed, but with a delay.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

RoMax wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 00:47
but with a delay.
Which is also forbidden. First of all it is misleading to not point out clearly what the options are and how to receive a refund. Secondly, delaying compensation to whenever it suits the air carrier is NOT allowas, no matter what IATA says. The law has not changed.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

Let's see what happens - almost the full industry is trying to direct customers to a rebooking and/or voucher solution (some more extreme than others - like always). An increasing amount of EU governments is supporting the no/delayed refund position of their airline industry (e.g. Germany supporting LH in it's policy that also steers away from giving refunds 'right now' and urging the EU to review policy for this crisis).

This is frustrating for all parties involved: airlines trying to hold on to the little cash left and consumers wanting their money back. Consumers are in their right but for airlines it makes sense they try to bend the rules in these exceptional circumstances. This no longer about a few mio profit more or less, this is about survival for countless companies.

This is a discussion well beyond SN. Yes its approach is more restrictive than certain other EU examples, but it's also much less restrictive than countless others (and in principle aligned within LHG).

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

RoMax wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 00:47
Refunds are NOT denied. But yes they are clearly being demotivated by referring to rebooking and the additional value voucher. If you file a (manual) refund request it WILL be processed, but with a delay.
Let’s stop this denial of the denial, can you give us a link to a page which explains how a refund can be requested?
Informing customers about their rights is a legal obligation as well, isn’t it?
Last edited by Poiu on 07 Apr 2020, 08:12, edited 1 time in total.

Pocahontas
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Pocahontas »

Hey topmanagers,


For info: This discussion is going nowhere. It is even getting boring and really predictable. Being topmanagers you guys have lots of time at hand, maybe start to use your energy to get rid off frustrations. Go outside, take a walk, smoke a cigar, have an apero this afternoon.

Matt
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Matt »

Pocahontas wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 08:03
Hey topmanagers,


For info: This discussion is going nowhere. It is even getting boring and really predictable. Being topmanagers you guys have lots of time at hand, maybe start to use your energy to get rid off frustrations. Go outside, take a walk, smoke a cigar, have an apero this afternoon.
Shhhhhh, don't tell these things! :o Watching these guys argue and bicker is my lunch break. This stuff is better than 'Thuis' .

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

RoMax wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 01:53
Let's see what happens - almost the full industry is trying to direct customers to a rebooking and/or voucher solution (some more extreme than others - like always). An increasing amount of EU governments is supporting the no/delayed refund position of their airline industry (e.g. Germany supporting LH in it's policy that also steers away from giving refunds 'right now' and urging the EU to review policy for this crisis).

This is frustrating for all parties involved: airlines trying to hold on to the little cash left and consumers wanting their money back. Consumers are in their right but for airlines it makes sense they try to bend the rules in these exceptional circumstances. This no longer about a few mio profit more or less, this is about survival for countless companies.

This is a discussion well beyond SN. Yes its approach is more restrictive than certain other EU examples, but it's also much less restrictive than countless others (and in principle aligned within LHG).
Whilst I agree and sympathise with you Romax, then it should be put into a law by politicians. It’s a knive that cuts on two sides. Airlines need to money to preserve their cash, but consumers have money tied up in something that they can’t use and may also be in financial trouble where a refund could lighten the burden. It’s a thin chord to walk on indeed, but changing the rules after the game has started is not something I personally am a fan off

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

sean1982 wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 09:23
Whilst I agree and sympathise with you Romax, then it should be put into a law by politicians. It’s a knive that cuts on two sides. Airlines need to money to preserve their cash, but consumers have money tied up in something that they can’t use and may also be in financial trouble where a refund could lighten the burden. It’s a thin chord to walk on indeed, but changing the rules after the game has started is not something I personally am a fan off
It has been done in the past you now, notably during the financial crisis, when ordinary clients of certain banks in Southern Europe were prevented by both local as well as European regulators from withdrawing their money from their savings accounts in order to halt a run on the bank, as nobody has the required liquidity to pay out all of its clients at the same time.

Anway, not sure a new legal initiative is needed to extend the same principle to airlines: it seems to me all that is required is a clear interpretation from the EC as to whether this unprecendented EU wide lock down is indeed an exemple of a force majeure situation already foreseen in their rules.

But as far as I understood, at least the Netherlands have meanwhile legislated as such to avoid any discussion and provide a solid legal basis, meaning KLM is no longer re-embursing any of their clients but rather just rolling over the ticket into a flight voucher, based on a (new?) Dutch law.
I had a ticket booked on them for this month and I got a mail informing me about the fact I can NOT request reimbursement, but have to accept the voucher valid for a year in case I can not yet rebook my flight. Sort of a bail-in light, so to speak:
https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/prepar ... /index.htm

Which brings us to an interesting solution to the urgent liquidity problems of all airlines: convert outstanding bookings into shares! ;)
It has been done with certain banks in Cyprus in 2011 or around, where all savings were simply turned into shares of the bank: the notorious bail-in principle.
Personally, I would be in favour of something similar as it would:
1- dilute the ownership of current shareholders, thus constitute moral hazard to them
2- involve customers which have voluntarily engaged in a relationship with the airline, albeit on different grounds
3- reduce the need for public financing to the absolute minimum
Last edited by Inquirer on 07 Apr 2020, 10:03, edited 1 time in total.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 09:53
the Netherlands have meanwhile legislated as such to avoid any discussion and provide a solid legal basis, meaning KLM is no longer re-embursing any of their clients but rather just rolling over the ticket into a flight voucher, based on a (new?) Dutch law.
Refund is European law and as such takes precedence over Dutch law.

Inquirer
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Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 10:01
Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 09:53
the Netherlands have meanwhile legislated as such to avoid any discussion and provide a solid legal basis, meaning KLM is no longer re-embursing any of their clients but rather just rolling over the ticket into a flight voucher, based on a (new?) Dutch law.
Refund is European law and as such takes precedence over Dutch law.
I suggest you go and tell KLMthen?

As you can see from the link I provided, they clearly offer just 2 options:
1- rebook the flight
2- apply for a voucher (up until a certain date, after which all money is lost as clearly stated)
NO CASH REFUND option is offered.

Since Dutch law is now different to the EU law, it means KLM is no longer liable as it can not comply with 2 different and conflicting rules. At worst, it's now the Dutch Government which will have to be brought to court and will have to pick up any bill should there ever be an ECJ court ruling about this as the non-compliance issue has been smartly moved from a company to a memberstate's level.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 10:09
Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 10:01
Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 09:53
the Netherlands have meanwhile legislated as such to avoid any discussion and provide a solid legal basis, meaning KLM is no longer re-embursing any of their clients but rather just rolling over the ticket into a flight voucher, based on a (new?) Dutch law.
Refund is European law and as such takes precedence over Dutch law.
I suggest you go and tell KLMthen?

As you can see from the link I provided, they clearly offer just 2 options:
1- rebook the flight
2- apply for a voucher (up until a certain date, after which all money is lost as clearly stated)
NO CASH REFUND option is offered.

Since Dutch law is now different to the EU law, it means KLM is no longer liable as it can not comply with 2 different and conflicting rules. At worst, it's now the Dutch Government which will have to be brought to court and will have to pick up any bill should there ever be an ECJ court ruling about this as the non-compliance issue has been smartly moved from a company to a memberstate's level.
No, you would bring KLM to court as your travel agreement is with KLM not the Dutch Government and they would loose, of course, working for an international company, you know all this.
I think you missed an important bit in the message though:
“If your flight has been cancelled by the airline, your travel voucher is refundable after 1 year from the date of issue.” so you still get a refund, albeit, after 1 year.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 10:19
No, you would bring KLM to court as your travel agreement is with KLM not the Dutch Government and they would loose, of course, working for an international company, you know all this.
Do I?

I think the situation is that in such a case, KLM will immediately claim before the lower trade court in The Netherlands they are simply unable to apply both conflicting rules at the same time and so the Dutch trade court will ask the ECJ a "pre-judiciële vraag" to first rule on the Dutch law itself.
Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 10:19
I think you missed an important bit in the message though:
“If your flight has been cancelled by the airline, your travel voucher is refundable after 1 year from the date of issue.” so you still get a refund, albeit, after 1 year.
So my flight got cancelled and I can now either rebook it or take the voucher (and rebook it later), just like I said. Don't see what you see as important here to your point: where's my direct refund option?

Remember you're the one arguing up until a few minutes ago it is an absolute disgrace it now takes a few weeks to be refunded, right? And yet you think it is important in the light of this discussion to point out that a voucher which is not refundable before somewhere in summer 2021 and ONLY on condition the airline cancels the rescheduled flight AGAIN, is an important concession…

Some people here clearly argue with themselves even, as long as they can hit out at the subject of this topic. :roll:

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