KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) and AMS

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Atlantis
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KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) and AMS

Post by Atlantis » 13 Sep 2019, 14:32

As from the end of March, the beginning of the Summer season, KLM will replace one of their 5 daily fights to BRU by a train connection between Schiphol and Brussels Airport.

They will use the Thalys for this and it will be the first test case for the near future.

In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.

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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by PttU » 13 Sep 2019, 14:35

Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
Are you sure. I think they will replace the IC direct between Brussels and Amsterdam

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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Passenger » 13 Sep 2019, 14:56

Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
As from the end of March, the beginning of the Summer season, KLM will replace one of their 5 daily fights to BRU by a train connection between Schiphol and Brussels Airport.

They will use the Thalys for this and it will be the first test case for the near future.

In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
PttU wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:35
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
Are you sure. I think they will replace the IC direct between Brussels and Amsterdam
Source: https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/air- ... -schiphol/

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Atlantis
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis » 13 Sep 2019, 15:10

PttU wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:35
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
Are you sure. I think they will replace the IC direct between Brussels and Amsterdam
Of course I'm sure, otherwise I would not post it

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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Jetter » 13 Sep 2019, 15:49

Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
As from the end of March, the beginning of the Summer season, KLM will replace one of their 5 daily fights to BRU by a train connection between Schiphol and Brussels Airport.

They will use the Thalys for this and it will be the first test case for the near future.
KLM doesn't say it will be a new train connection to Brussels Airport. They say 'chair capacity on Thalys' to 'Brussels'. This will probably just be a project to improve the train/flight connection that already exists.

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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis » 13 Sep 2019, 15:59

Jetter wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 15:49
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
As from the end of March, the beginning of the Summer season, KLM will replace one of their 5 daily fights to BRU by a train connection between Schiphol and Brussels Airport.

They will use the Thalys for this and it will be the first test case for the near future.
KLM doesn't say it will be a new train connection to Brussels Airport. They say 'chair capacity on Thalys' to 'Brussels'. This will probably just be a project to improve the train/flight connection that already exists.
Who was saying that it was a new train connection? Everybody is clear, and like I also wrote, that one of their daily flights will be replaced by a train connection.

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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Jetter » 13 Sep 2019, 16:19

Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 15:59
Jetter wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 15:49
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
As from the end of March, the beginning of the Summer season, KLM will replace one of their 5 daily fights to BRU by a train connection between Schiphol and Brussels Airport.

They will use the Thalys for this and it will be the first test case for the near future.
KLM doesn't say it will be a new train connection to Brussels Airport. They say 'chair capacity on Thalys' to 'Brussels'. This will probably just be a project to improve the train/flight connection that already exists.
Who was saying that it was a new train connection? Everybody is clear, and like I also wrote, that one of their daily flights will be replaced by a train connection.
Well, the Thalys currently doesn't stop at Brussels Airport so you were basically saying it would be a new train connection. Instead it are seats on multiple trains on which they currently already offer seats.

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Atlantis
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis » 13 Sep 2019, 16:50

Jetter wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 16:19
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 15:59
Jetter wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 15:49

KLM doesn't say it will be a new train connection to Brussels Airport. They say 'chair capacity on Thalys' to 'Brussels'. This will probably just be a project to improve the train/flight connection that already exists.
Who was saying that it was a new train connection? Everybody is clear, and like I also wrote, that one of their daily flights will be replaced by a train connection.
Well, the Thalys currently doesn't stop at Brussels Airport so you were basically saying it would be a new train connection. Instead it are seats on multiple trains on which they currently already offer seats.
oh no no no, this is your interpretation. On this way you can make many stories you know.
I wrote, just like in the KLM release, that KLM is using the Thalys to replace one of their daily flights.

Nobody, not me and not KLM/NS, is saying that it is a new connection.

They use the Thalys bcs the "old Benelux train" is not reliable enough to test this case.

So what you assumed is fully on your responsibility ;)

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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Jetter » 13 Sep 2019, 16:57

:roll:
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
As from the end of March, the beginning of the Summer season, KLM will replace one of their 5 daily fights to BRU by a train connection between Schiphol and Brussels Airport.
There will be no such train connection.

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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by PttU » 13 Sep 2019, 18:01

Passenger wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:56
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
As from the end of March, the beginning of the Summer season, KLM will replace one of their 5 daily fights to BRU by a train connection between Schiphol and Brussels Airport.

They will use the Thalys for this and it will be the first test case for the near future.

In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
PttU wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:35
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
Are you sure. I think they will replace the IC direct between Brussels and Amsterdam
Source: https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/air- ... -schiphol/
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 15:10
PttU wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:35
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
Are you sure. I think they will replace the IC direct between Brussels and Amsterdam
Of course I'm sure, otherwise I would not post it
My doubts where only around the ICNG material replacing Thalys material ;)

The article (your article?) on the Aviation24-homepage doesn't mention the Intercity New Generation. Those train can only reach 200km/h and are the replacement of what should have been replaced by the Fyra, which was used on the "old" intercity route Amsterdam-Brussels, and which stops at BRU airport.
It would be strange to have Intercity New Generation (ICNG) replace Thalys: ICNG is to be used on the high speed rail network yes, but the IC does that too now (going over Breda in stead of Roosendaal). Thalys continues to Paris (and Cologne etc) from Brussels, it would be very weird to have Dutch ICNG material going all the way to Paris.
The only way "ICNG replacing Thalys" would make sense would be to lower to number of journeys served by Thalys to make place in the rail-schedule for IC-services, served by ICNG.

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Atlantis
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Atlantis » 13 Sep 2019, 18:15

PttU wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 18:01
Passenger wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:56
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:32
As from the end of March, the beginning of the Summer season, KLM will replace one of their 5 daily fights to BRU by a train connection between Schiphol and Brussels Airport.

They will use the Thalys for this and it will be the first test case for the near future.

In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
PttU wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:35
Are you sure. I think they will replace the IC direct between Brussels and Amsterdam
Source: https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/air- ... -schiphol/
Atlantis wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 15:10
PttU wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 14:35
Are you sure. I think they will replace the IC direct between Brussels and Amsterdam
Of course I'm sure, otherwise I would not post it
My doubts where only around the ICNG material replacing Thalys material ;)

The article (your article?) on the Aviation24-homepage doesn't mention the Intercity New Generation. Those train can only reach 200km/h and are the replacement of what should have been replaced by the Fyra, which was used on the "old" intercity route Amsterdam-Brussels, and which stops at BRU airport.
It would be strange to have Intercity New Generation (ICNG) replace Thalys: ICNG is to be used on the high speed rail network yes, but the IC does that too now (going over Breda in stead of Roosendaal). Thalys continues to Paris (and Cologne etc) from Brussels, it would be very weird to have Dutch ICNG material going all the way to Paris.
The only way "ICNG replacing Thalys" would make sense would be to lower to number of journeys served by Thalys to make place in the rail-schedule for IC-services, served by ICNG.
The ICNG will not replace the Thalys of course. The Thalys will stay and with this one they will have this try out. That's why only one flight will be replaced.

But yes, the ICNG is new and will be tested now for almost more than a year. Than it will come into service for domestic services in NL and after they will use it also between Amsterdam and Brussels.

The article on the Homepage, which is not mine 😉, is indeed not mentioning the ICNG, as both are separated topics. But it could have been a side note to mention what they will do in the near future.

So maybe it is now a bit more clear 😊. If not please ask.

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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) to A

Post by luchtzak » 14 Sep 2019, 09:19

The train will never link Brussels Airport and Amsterdam Schiphol, but link the railway stations in Brussels with the Dutch airport.

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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) to A

Post by Atlantis » 14 Sep 2019, 09:40

That is really a missed opportunity for the future. There are still a lot of people on long haul or even short haul who are taking a connection flight to AMS. They now have to take a train first to a Brussels train station and from there to AMS. They will lose more pax with it. They should link directly. Airport to airport

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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) and

Post by jan_olieslagers » 14 Sep 2019, 10:55

In meantime, the NS is testing the new ordered Intercity New Generation trains. They will come into service in 2021. Also those new trains will be used between Schiphol and Brussels Airport and will replace the Thalys.
No. ICNG are to replace the current "Benelux"trains, hauled by Traxx locomotives whose lease contract will soon terminate. There are some misgivings about homologation of the ICNG for use on the Belgian network, though, this might not happen before 2023, or even 2025.

And, for the sake of clarity, the Benelux trains currently do stop at both Schiphol and Zaventem airport stations, though not all of them (a few per day terminate at Den Haag rather than going, via Schiphol, to Amsterdam CS). Check the schedule of IC9235 for just one example.

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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) and

Post by Passenger » 14 Sep 2019, 12:10

The main reason is not working towards a better climate and sustainability by replacing flight by train. If so, KLM would cancel all five daily flights AMS-BRU. And if so, KLM wouldn't start up Air Antwerp (competing against rail).

The main reason for the 20% change into rail is this little phrase in KLM's statement: "KLM heeft daarnaast te maken met slotbeperkingen op Schiphol". My translation: "beside that, KLM encounters slot limitations at AMS". With AMS limited to 500.000 moves, KLM need slots at AMS for their longhaul growth. It's as simple as that. One less daily AMS-BRU is 7 slots extra weekly.

This is about Marketing, taking over from Sales. Just look at all MSM reports: KLM is presented as a sustainable transport source, whilst that's a contradictio in terminis for our branch. When we travel by air, we pollute. But to travel is part of our way of life - just like we heat our houses, we shower with hot water, we go to a restaurant. You live, you pollute.

It's apparently a new trend in aviation: airlines presenting cost savings as CO² efforts. There was that Irish airline - I have forgotten the name - that presents itself as "the smallest CO² polluter in aviation". Whilst a European survey placed them in the top-10 of most polluting companies...

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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) to A

Post by Jetter » 14 Sep 2019, 20:42

Atlantis wrote:
14 Sep 2019, 09:40
That is really a missed opportunity for the future. There are still a lot of people on long haul or even short haul who are taking a connection flight to AMS. They now have to take a train first to a Brussels train station and from there to AMS. They will lose more pax with it. They should link directly. Airport to airport
Problem is that going via BRU is a detour between Brussels and Antwerp (and thus Paris and Amsterdam) while the selling point of Thalys is a fast connection. That's why the much slower IC between Brussels and Amsterdam does stop there and the Thalys doesn't, which also helps to justify the price premium of Thalys vis a vis the IC. BRU itself doesn't have enough demand for a dedicated high-speed train service to AMS either.

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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) to A

Post by Poiu » 15 Sep 2019, 09:11

Atlantis wrote:
14 Sep 2019, 09:40
That is really a missed opportunity for the future. There are still a lot of people on long haul or even short haul who are taking a connection flight to AMS. They now have to take a train first to a Brussels train station and from there to AMS. They will lose more pax with it. They should link directly. Airport to airport
On the other hand, if your origin or final destination is Belgium, probably the majority of KLM passengers, there is no need to go to BRU to take the train.
Tickets from every Belgian city, with KLM rerouting you in case of a cancelled train, could be a huge success.

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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) and

Post by jan_olieslagers » 15 Sep 2019, 10:48

That is really a missed opportunity for the future. There are still a lot of people on long haul or even short haul who are taking a connection flight to AMS. They now have to take a train first to a Brussels train station and from there to AMS.
That is not clear to me: if ever I am to travel on an airliner, I will begin by taking a train from my village to Mechelen*. From there I can then have a train to Zaventem - but equally to Schiphol. In no case would I take a plane from Zaventem to Schiphol, that would only cost time and money. In fact I have often wondered who would be the typical passenger on such a flight - probably people connecting at AMS to a destination that has no direct service from BRU anyway.

(* my village station is a lot less busy than Ottignies' (which impressed me with its traffic figures!) so I am not complaining there's no direct train)
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 15 Sep 2019, 13:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) and

Post by sn26567 » 15 Sep 2019, 12:46

Incidentally (and off topic), Ottignies does have direct trains to BRU Airport. And those trains, which have BRU as terminal station, remain only a very short time at the station before returning in the opposite direction.
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Re: KLM to replace one of their five daily flights to BRU by a train connection between Brussels (railway stations) and

Post by jan_olieslagers » 15 Sep 2019, 13:20

((and even further off-topic)): the train does not "return in the opposite direction". If it entered from the South, i.e. from L36, it normally departs northbound, to turn over the Diabolo and join L26 southbound. Avoiding change of direction is an important time-saver; this Diabolo is well thought out! The disadvantage is that, to join L36 from L26, the train passes a level crossing with the southbound trains from Vilvoorde; which can dramatically increase delays on this busy line as soon as the least detail goes wrong. That no fly-over was built to avoid this seems to me a clear indication that it is only a temporary situation: the intended usage is for trains from the South (Charleroi, Dinant) to continue northward to Mechelen, and further.
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 15 Sep 2019, 14:50, edited 2 times in total.

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