Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 18 May 2019, 23:08

mvg wrote:
18 May 2019, 17:54
I was only replying to SR20’s post. Reality is not like in the tweet, neither like in his post.

We are not forgetting that the management is doing a very poor job and that being an Atco means having responsibilities.

Last but not least, yes you have 10 millions of angry Belgians against you, yes you have been screwed up by your management, by the way the company is functioning. But this is your (the controller’s) fault: controllers think they are the best, that they could fly better than pilots, that they are untouchables, that they can handle any situation (even a negociation at a high level) but they just can’t! They are not capable of that! Not because they are stupid but because it’s not their job! Even your CEO knows that! He has lawyer and skilled people next to him, he has political support, media support, and so on! You are fighting an army with weapons made of paper! And there you are!
Using the system and behaving like that had to come back to your face at some point. It does now. It’s painful for guys like you Phoenixx, who still seem to be moderate, reasonable and who like their job. But we both know that there is a bunch of guys there who don’t deserve to have this job, who have nothing to do there, some are leading you into the wall. It might be late but it’s time to wake up and all those who really want to move forward and who love their job should gather and find solutions. It is still very possible.
All the best, by the way, because Skeyes could be a wonderful company to work for.
No worries, I was not trying to attack you, I have read your other posts, I know you are moderate and reasonable and I understand your point.

I don't agree on your last paragraph though.
We honestly don't think we're the best at all.
Sometimes we get frustrated with pilots maybe, same way pilots get frustrated with us or with their handlers. Doesn't mean we think we can actually do it better. A bit like a guy watching professional soccer on tv.
We don't think we could have handled these handled negotiations better than ACV or VSOA. To express myself simple and lightly, we just really don't like the outcome. Because it means losing bigtime in every issue it was about for us without even getting any solution for our problems in return. The worst possible outcome.
So no it might not be our job, but it is our carreer, our life and our future. It's not De Cuypers, Neyens' or the ACODs future they're talking about here, it's ours.

Depending on what you mean by "behaving like that had to come back to your face at some Point" I will have a different response, but I probably won't agree either way.
- The CEO would have always implemented these measures, the guy wants total control over his company and staff and he doesn't take a "no" very well. ACOD was simply 'our' weakest link.
-The public opinion would have always turned against us with this management, strike or no strike last Thursday.
We are shortstaffed and will be for years to come. That means disruptions and delays either way. An alarm bell like this we don't ring for fun or just because we can.
-Your scenario of us pretending to be better at negotiations and protesting instead of us simply accepting the situation would have meant facing measures and situations that were far more extensive, restricting and affecting our personal lives earlier already. Better numbers, more fatigue and burnouts among atcos, more safety risks, more divorces, more of everything bad basicly.

Like I said, not sure which one you were aiming for, but I don't agree either way.
We now have 2 'agreements' in effect that don't meet any of our demands and that don't solve the actual problems both us and the company are faced with.
As long as De Cuyper, ACOD and the politicians in charge don't realise we will not give in to this one sided, numbers and image based, antisocial, ostrich-approach of this CEO, this 'fight' will continue.
It doesn't matter what lies they publish in the media, what agreements they try to shove down our throats or how hated we are by the general public.
I don't sound too moderate or reasonable here, but what I wrote in this paragraph is the essential truth and it goes for +80% of atcos in skeyes. It's the further interpretation, conclusions and solutions where we differ, but as long as this shared core message is not understood, this situation will not be resolved.

I agree it could -once again- be a wonderful company to work for though. Every company and every person has it's flaws and problems, that's normal. But acknowledge them free of blame, and try to prevent them from happening again, that's what just culture is about isn't it?

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 19 May 2019, 11:16

A little taste of "deja vu" ?

Air traffic controller shortage in Germany :

"Delayed flights because air traffic controllers are missing: The German air traffic control wants to prevent this scenario in the holiday season. It offers lavish payments for special shifts - but employees do not just want money."

https://m.spiegel.de/karriere/flugsiche ... 67982.html

Some quotes :

- It is questionable whether the parties to the dispute will find a solution by the beginning of the holiday season at the end of June. If there is no agreement, everything stays the same at DFS - at the expense of the airlines and passengers.

- Europe suffers from a significant airspace capacity problem. Since the beginning of the nineties intra-European air traffic has tripled. The European air traffic control Eurocontrol expects the number of flights, which start with up to two hours delay, to increase by a factor of seven by 2040.

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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 19 May 2019, 12:26

SR20 wrote:
19 May 2019, 11:16
A little taste of "deja vu" ?

Air traffic controller shortage in Germany :

"Delayed flights because air traffic controllers are missing: The German air traffic control wants to prevent this scenario in the holiday season. It offers lavish payments for special shifts - but employees do not just want money."

https://m.spiegel.de/karriere/flugsiche ... 67982.html

Some quotes :

- It is questionable whether the parties to the dispute will find a solution by the beginning of the holiday season at the end of June. If there is no agreement, everything stays the same at DFS - at the expense of the airlines and passengers.

- Europe suffers from a significant airspace capacity problem. Since the beginning of the nineties intra-European air traffic has tripled. The European air traffic control Eurocontrol expects the number of flights, which start with up to two hours delay, to increase by a factor of seven by 2040.
There is a simple solution to alleviate the problem: the SES (Single Europen Sky) promoted by the European Union. But the selfishness of the national governments wanting to keep absolute control of their airspace is a major roadblock, although the minds are slowly (too slowly) changing.
André
ex Sabena #26567

737MAX
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by 737MAX » 19 May 2019, 12:41

sn26567 wrote:
19 May 2019, 12:26

There is a simple solution to alleviate the problem: the SES (Single Europen Sky) promoted by the European Union. But the selfishness of the national governments wanting to keep absolute control of their airspace is a major roadblock, although the minds are slowly (too slowly) changing.
Yep... eventually things will have to change, that's for sure.
We are clearly at the limit (or over the limit) of the way ATC is performed in Europe nowadays.

PttU
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by PttU » 19 May 2019, 22:15

jan_olieslagers wrote:
18 May 2019, 08:34
Extensive analysis, quite correct as far as I can judge:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/05/17 ... angsommen/

* comparison with Netherlands: they have long-term planning AND a flag carrier with international fame; on the contrary Belgium has no long term planning, the current government has decided nothing during its five-year tenancy, and Belgian assets have been sold abroad, often for peanuts; including SN and Brussels Airport
I'm not sure if the term "flag carrier" is relevant here. It's a term I think means different things to different people, and holds a large emotional meaning, which isn't where vrtnws hinted at. In other threads there's often discussion whether or not Air Belgium is more of a "flag carrier" than SN, but I don't think that's relevant: There could be even two companies thriving in Belgium, as long as they're supported by the government and by a long-term vision of it. Whether that makes them a "flag carrier" doesn't really matter I think.
Vergelijk dat eens met Nederland. Waar ze tienjarenplannen opstellen rond luchtvaart, waar ze afspraken maken rond wat wel en wat niet. Waar een groot publiek debat is rond de toekomst van die luchtvaart. Dat Nederland een maatschappij in handen heeft die wereldwijd bekend staat, is heus geen toeval. De KLM is er gekomen niet op basis van wat geluk, maar is het resultaat van een visie en een "drive" om iets te betekenen op mondiaal niveau.

Wij? Wij hebben de boel doorverkocht aan het buitenland. De Duitsers kregen onze nationale trots Brussels Airlines, gebouwd op de assen van die andere trots Sabena, in handen voor een appel en een ei. Brussels Airport is het succesvolle speelgoed geworden van Canadese en andere pensioenfondsen. De bagage-afhandeling, ooit in handen van een Belgische familie, is deel geworden van een multinational die niet weet wat te doen met die verdomde Belgische tak waar elk jaar wel "miserie" is.
According to Wikipedia (for what it's worth): a "flag carrier" can be defined by:
  • "enjoys preferential rights or privileges accorded by the government for international operations" => that goes for neither of them?
  • "aircraft to display the state flag of the country of their registry" => that goes for SN, Air Belgium, but TUI as well.
But nevertheless I agree with the points mentioned: as there is no clear vision by the politics (and the same vision on the different levels that are involved), it is very hard for any company to do something that's supported by that government. The only vision that's easy for politics is "cost savings", but that leads to consequences...


SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 20 May 2019, 23:40

German air traffic controllers receive 2,000 euros per extra shift.

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 28743.html

- The discussion in Germany also reminds us of the situation at the Belgian Skeyes. There, traffic controllers have been campaigning for months against the lack of staff and the high workload.

- "We have never again asked for money for air traffic controllers, but respect for the law, solutions for career breaks and sufficient staff," said Christian trade unionist Kurt Callaerts.

Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 21 May 2019, 10:32

Brussels Airport and TUI (.be) have joined Brussels Airlines' court case against Skeyes.

https://www.aviation24.be/air-traffic-c ... er-skeyes/

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers » 21 May 2019, 14:09

A separate case has been initiated by the Wallonian regional government, joined by the airport authorities of Liege and Charleroi. Quite understandable that they choose to act, less understandable that they don't join the existing case. L'union fait la force no longer ;) ?

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 21 May 2019, 16:08

SR20 wrote:
20 May 2019, 23:40
German air traffic controllers receive 2,000 euros per extra shift.

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 28743.html

- The discussion in Germany also reminds us of the situation at the Belgian Skeyes. There, traffic controllers have been campaigning for months against the lack of staff and the high workload.

- "We have never again asked for money for air traffic controllers, but respect for the law, solutions for career breaks and sufficient staff," said Christian trade unionist Kurt Callaerts.
Have you checked with anyone working at DFS?
No need to say that, like for conflicts in Skeyes, the numbers are heavily hyped in the media. This isn’t the deal that they were proposed.

Surprising that when the media cover something about Skeyes it’s considered corrupted and when it’s about foreign ATC it’s not...

Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 21 May 2019, 16:31

wrote: A separate case has been initiated by the Wallonian regional government, joined by the airport authorities of Liege and Charleroi. Quite understandable that they choose to act, less understandable that they don't join the existing case. L'union fait la force no longer?
Luc Partoune (Sowaer, PS) knows very well that the actual problems at Skeyes were caused by Johan Decuyper's predesessor Jean-Claude Tintin (PS). Tintin refused to charge regional airports, causing a huge cumulated loss for Belgocontrol between 2009 and 2014. Reason: to keep CRL as cheap as possible for Ryanair. Actually, even today only Brussels Airport pays for the Belgocontrol/Skeyes services. The invoices for OST, ANR, CRL and LGG are sent to Rue de la Loi / Wetstraat...

Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 21 May 2019, 18:53

SR20 wrote:
20 May 2019, 23:13
Quite an interesting summary I think !

NL : https://www.solidair.org/artikels/probl ... andigheden

FR : https://www.solidaire.org/articles/skey ... l-humaines
What your Solidair - the magazine from the Belgian communist party PTB/PVDA - of course forgets to mention, is that Belgocontrol/skeyes implements maximal recrutement, as agreed in 2016. From the skeyes press desk:

Het akkoord van april 2016 voorzag in de maximale aanwerving van luchtverkeersleiders. Die inhaalbeweging is nu volop aan de gang. Sindsdien werden al 102 luchtverkeersleiders aangetrokken. Van hen zijn er al 34 aan de slag, 38 zijn nog in opleiding en 30 slaagden niet voor de opleiding. Vanaf dit jaar worden de gevolgen van die aanwervingen ook voelbaar in CANAC. Na hun opleiding van twee jaar doen luchtverkeersleiders immers eerst ervaring op in de torens.

Het akkoord van 22 maart van dit jaar handelde over verschillende aangelegenheden. Het bepaalde onder andere de rechtstreekse aanwerving van luchtverkeersleiders voor CANAC. Die versterking kan vanaf dit jaar al ingezet worden.


L'accord d'avril 2016 prévoyait le recrutement maximum de contrôleurs aériens. Ce processus de rattrapage bat son plein. Depuis lors, 102 contrôleurs aériens ont été recrutés. 34 d’entre eux sont déjà opérationnels, 38 sont encore en cours de formation et 30 n’ont pas réussi la formation. À partir de cette année, les effets de ces recrutements se feront sentir à CANAC. Après leur formation de deux ans, les contrôleurs aériens acquièrent toujours une première expérience dans les tours.

L'accord du 22 mars dernier porte sur différents sujets. Cet accord prévoit, entre autres, le recrutement direct de contrôleurs aériens pour CANAC. Ce renforcement pourra être déployé dès cette année.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 21 May 2019, 22:04

Passenger wrote:
21 May 2019, 18:53
What your Solidair - the magazine from the Belgian communist party PTB/PVDA - of course forgets to mention, is that Belgocontrol/skeyes implements maximal recrutement, as agreed in 2016. From the skeyes press desk:

Het akkoord van april 2016 voorzag in de maximale aanwerving van luchtverkeersleiders. Die inhaalbeweging is nu volop aan de gang. Sindsdien werden al 102 luchtverkeersleiders aangetrokken. Van hen zijn er al 34 aan de slag, 38 zijn nog in opleiding en 30 slaagden niet voor de opleiding. Vanaf dit jaar worden de gevolgen van die aanwervingen ook voelbaar in CANAC. Na hun opleiding van twee jaar doen luchtverkeersleiders immers eerst ervaring op in de torens.

Het akkoord van 22 maart van dit jaar handelde over verschillende aangelegenheden. Het bepaalde onder andere de rechtstreekse aanwerving van luchtverkeersleiders voor CANAC. Die versterking kan vanaf dit jaar al ingezet worden.
To the user with probably the least right to start about "forgetting to mention", i have a question.
Your point is what exactly with this good-news-show-information?

That staffing is suddenly all fine because they are recruiting?
That because of this people just have to suck it up for as long as the management demands it and the company needs it?
That a few new atcos in canac are going to solve everything, because starting from this year the effects of training are "detectable'?
That we will not be shortstaffed for another five years because management and the pr division forgot to mention that little detail?

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by 737MAX » 22 May 2019, 13:26

Phoenixx wrote:
21 May 2019, 22:04


To the user with probably the least right to start about "forgetting to mention", i have a question.
Your point is what exactly with this good-news-show-information?

I'm afraid you won't get any answer.
The answer is nowhere to be found in the media, I think ;)

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 22 May 2019, 15:11

Even if Solidair(e) is the magazine of the PTB/PVDA (and we try to avoid politics in our forum), the interview in itself is non-political and has its place here. Furthermore, the study centre of PTB/PVDA is known for its sharp analysis of the financial statements of multinational corporations and their tricks to avoid paying taxes in Belgium.
André
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Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 22 May 2019, 23:20

737MAX wrote:
22 May 2019, 13:26
I'm afraid you won't get any answer.
The answer is nowhere to be found in the media, I think ;)
I know. His silence says more than his words could though.

On that note: For the next 10 days management is still doing their visite of the units to clarify the agreement and their intentions and to answer all questions (they say).
We are hoping for a constructive talk where our concerns are heard and actually taken into the decisionmaking this time.
It is high time for this situation to be defused a bit.

Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 25 May 2019, 21:02

Belgian airspace hijacked:
article by Stefaan Michielsen, senior writer De Tijd:
https://www.tijd.be/dossier/weekboekond ... m/10130300

Last paragraph:
De schade die de luchtverkeersleiders veroorzaken, is disproportioneel met de baten die zij voor zichzelf kunnen binnenhalen. De politieke overheid staat erbij en kijkt ernaar. Machteloos. Het is een perfecte illustratie van wat de Leuvense professor Herman Daems beschreef in zijn in 2017 gepubliceerde boek ‘De uitgeputte overheid’. Die overheid heeft compleet geen greep meer op Skeyes. En tegelijk is het luchtverkeersleidersbedrijf op geen enkele manier onderworpen aan de discipline van de markt. In dat niemandsland kunnen de luchtverkeersleiders het Belgische luchtruim makkelijk kapen voor eigen gewin.
(free translation: https://translate.google.com)

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers » 25 May 2019, 21:13

That says it all, yes. The complete lack of action or initiative from authorities has already been pointed here several times, and lamented, but it cannot be exaggerated. "The exhausted authorities", indeed.

Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 25 May 2019, 21:26

jan_olieslagers wrote:
25 May 2019, 21:13
That says it all, yes. The complete lack of action or initiative from authorities has already been pointed here several times, and lamented, but it cannot be exaggerated. "The exhausted authorities", indeed.
You obviously have missed one word: machteloos. And machteloos obviously contradicts your conclusion (maybe you were looking to much for dt-fouten, an attitude that hampers begrijpend lezen?)

Stefaan Michielsen: "...De schade die de luchtverkeersleiders veroorzaken, is disproportioneel met de baten die zij voor zichzelf kunnen binnenhalen..." Translated: The damage that air traffic controllers cause, is disproportionate to the benefits they can obtain for themselves.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 25 May 2019, 21:57

Passenger wrote: machteloos
hey tiny man.
When are you going to grow half a pair and start talking with one of the people involved instead of just spamming fake news like a Russian troll while ignoring everything else?

The 'benefit' we're looking to obtain is respect for our rights and rules.
We are not looking for more money or less hours as claimed in this article, both those things come exclusively from our own CEO because he is not willing (n)or able to give us a healthy work life balance as requested.
Anybody with half a brain that followed this thread for the last 15 pages should have probably figured that out by now.
Is it a lack of will or a lack of mental capability that is preventing you from taking in new information if it does not match with your own restricted view?

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