Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

Boeing767copilot wrote: 16 May 2019, 15:18
skeyes:

Toutefois, ces actions n'étaient assorties d'aucune revendication.
Has the CEO been on holiday for the past few months ? 😯😕

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

@Boeing767copilot
That’s theory... Everyone has already understood the details. They are and they won’t be happy till they get what they want. Like for all the previous strikes.
Say no to a spoiled kid and he is gonna keep on asking till he gets what he wants...
Last edited by mvg on 16 May 2019, 15:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Airbus330lover »

@mvg.. right word : Kids.. and well paid kids

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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 »

Boeing767copilot wrote: 16 May 2019, 15:18 skeyes:

Pas de renégociation de l'accord, la concertation prévue aura lieu
Jeudi 16 mai 2019

Lorsque l'accord social de skeyes a été conclu le 10 mai dernier, il a été convenu que l'accord serait élaboré en concertation entre la direction et les syndicats.

Au début de cette semaine, la direction a pris l'initiative et une première réunion a été fixée pour le lundi 20 mai.

Il ne s'agit pas de renégocier l'accord, mais d'élaborer concrètement les détails de l'accord conclu.

Les réunions d'information qui étaient prévues tout au long de la journée d'aujourd'hui ont été annulées après qu’il s’est avéré que des actions non-annoncées auraient lieu. Toutefois, ces actions n'étaient assorties d'aucune revendication.

Les réunions d'information prévues à partir de demain auront lieu comme prévu.
... which, in English, has been translated to https://www.aviation24.be/air-traffic-c ... continues/
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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 »

A judge has just ruled that Belgian ANSP skeyes will have to pay €10,000 per flight (or €20,000 for long-haul routes) to Brussels Airlines if the airline has to cancel, divert or delay flights by more than one hour due to ATC strikes between tomorrow and 26 May.

Brussels Airlines claims that it lost more than 4 million euros this year as a consequence of the social unrest at skeyes, without taking into account the loss in reputation and the fact that more and more passengers are opting for nearby foreign airports.
André
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jan_olieslagers
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

... which is what should have happened much earlier. (the judgement, I mean, not SN's (claimed) losses).
We can only hope that government - still the controlling authority of Belgocontrol* as I understand - will finally take action, for example by putting in place an emergency manager. They ought to have acted much earlier, too, but it is a known fact that politicians will not act until they really must. In Belgium as in many countries.

* alias "skeyes" but that is only a commercial banner, invented by marketing girls and boys. Who paid them for that, by the way, and how much?

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

The request is understandable, but could it be met with? In a legal way? Surely any copy would be a breach of copyright?

That said, we are perhaps not missing much. The little bit of text copied includes, for just one example, " ... zeggen de luchtverkeersleiders... " ("as ATCO's say" , my free translation) without mentioning who or how many of the ATC staff state this. Cheapo generalisation, one hallmark of commercial "journalism".

Jetter
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Jetter »

It seems like not all atco’s are a problem, but mainly the Christian ones have a poor and selfish mentality. So much for looking not only after yourself as Christian value. :roll: It’s ACV that callled for the wildcat strike today, while the socialists already agreed on a deal. Maybe banning religious people from working as atco would be a long-term solution? :twisted:

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

Jetter wrote: 16 May 2019, 21:41 It seems like not all atco’s are a problem, but mainly the Christian ones have a poor and selfish mentality. So much for looking not only after yourself as Christian value. :roll: It’s ACV that callled for the wildcat strike today, while the socialists already agreed on a deal. Maybe banning religious people from working as atco would be a long-term solution? :twisted:
VSOA/SLFP supported today's actions too I believe !

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote: 16 May 2019, 19:02 A judge has just ruled that Belgian ANSP skeyes will have to pay €10,000 per flight (or €20,000 for long-haul routes) to Brussels Airlines if the airline has to cancel or delay flights by more than one hour due to ATC strikes between tomorrow and 26 May.

Brussels Airlines claims that it lost more than 4 million euros this year as a consequence of the social unrest at skeyes, without taking into account the loss in reputation and the fact that more and more passengers are opting for nearby foreign airports.
The Judge has probably forbitten all voluntary disruption of ATC, with a fine (dwangsom / astreinte) for each infract against his (or her) judgement.

Jetter
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Jetter »

SR20 wrote: 16 May 2019, 22:03
Jetter wrote: 16 May 2019, 21:41 It seems like not all atco’s are a problem, but mainly the Christian ones have a poor and selfish mentality. So much for looking not only after yourself as Christian value. :roll: It’s ACV that callled for the wildcat strike today, while the socialists already agreed on a deal. Maybe banning religious people from working as atco would be a long-term solution? :twisted:
VSOA/SLFP supported today's actions too I believe !
If that’s true then the socialists are the most willing to work and least willing to strike. What a surreal company Skyes is. :shock:

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by luchtzak »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 16 May 2019, 21:30 The request is understandable, but could it be met with? In a legal way? Surely any copy would be a breach of copyright?
Copying full text is surely not allowed, sharing pictures either (message from SR20 removed).

What is allowed is a brief summary with a link to the article.

Matt
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Matt »

Jetter wrote: 16 May 2019, 22:12
SR20 wrote: 16 May 2019, 22:03
Jetter wrote: 16 May 2019, 21:41 It seems like not all atco’s are a problem, but mainly the Christian ones have a poor and selfish mentality. So much for looking not only after yourself as Christian value. :roll: It’s ACV that callled for the wildcat strike today, while the socialists already agreed on a deal. Maybe banning religious people from working as atco would be a long-term solution? :twisted:
VSOA/SLFP supported today's actions too I believe !
If that’s true then the socialists are the most willing to work and least willing to strike. What a surreal company Skyes is. :shock:
Everything that could go wrong goes wrong. Even the stereotypes :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote: 16 May 2019, 14:14 It's time for the Government to act and impose a minimum service rule, like at the Belgian Railways and the Walloon TEC (which just got a 1M euro fine because it did not carry out that minimum service in some regions on 14 May). And in case of a wildcat strike (= illegal), the strikers (or their unions) should be held personally responsible for any costs incurred by inconvenienced airlines and passengers.
A minimum service rule would indeed the solution to avoid that third parties are damaged in a social conflict (airlines, touroperators, passengers, cargo handlers). Portugal has such legislation.

Apart from the above examples (NMBS/SNCB/TEC), Belgium has no “strike legislation”. The only legal referral is The European Social Charter (which is a general framework) and some jurispridence by higher courts. None of them care about the damage that third parties suffer.
https://www.coe.int/en/web/european-social-charter

sn26567 wrote: 16 May 2019, 14:14 I had some comprehension for the demands of the ATCOs expressed in this forum and I realised that skeyes management bears a big responsibility in the degradation of their working conditions over the years. But ATCOs have lost all credibility in one single morning.
There is little or no ground to blame CEO Johan Decuyper. And working conditions have not been degraded: every factual report here has been countered. Just one example: “some people work for 12 consecutives days”. Reply: “yes, but it’s voluntary”.

Johan Decuyper (CD&V) has managed what his predesessor Jean-Claude Tintin (PS) couldn’t do: get the finances in order. Thanks to his educational skills, his practice skills ànd his political knowlegde and political contacts, Decuyper has realized that the regional airports ANR, OST, CRL, LGG finally pay for the Belgocontrol services. Brussels Airport still is the only airport paying a contribution, but since 2014 (or 2015), the regional authorities pay for the services rendered to their regional airports.

The problem that Decuyper faced, couldn’t be solved: staff that is irreplaceable, going on rampage "we want more".

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

A minimum service rule would indeed the solution to avoid that third parties are damaged in a social conflict (airlines, touroperators, passengers, cargo handlers). Portugal has such legislation.

Apart from the above examples (NMBS/SNCB/TEC), Belgium has no “strike legislation”. The only legal referral is The European Social Charter (which is a general framework) and some jurispridence by higher courts. None of them care about the damage that third parties suffer.
https://www.coe.int/en/web/european-social-charter

There is little or no ground to blame CEO Johan Decuyper. And working conditions have not been degraded: every factual report here has been countered. Just one example: “some people work for 12 consecutives days”. Reply: “yes, but it’s voluntary”.

Johan Decuyper (CD&V) has managed what his predesessor Jean-Claude Tintin (PS) couldn’t do: get the finances in order. Thanks to his educational skills, his practice skills ànd his political knowlegde and political contacts, Decuyper has realized that the regional airports ANR, OST, CRL, LGG finally pay for the Belgocontrol services. Brussels Airport still is the only airport paying a contribution, but since 2014 (or 2015), the regional authorities pay for the services rendered to their regional airports.

The problem that Decuyper faced, couldn’t be solved: staff that is irreplaceable, going on rampage "we want more".
Odd how every time I consider to not react for a bit you just have to start spreading lies again.

We háve a minimum service law, every "closed" unit has people working in case of emergency. This service may not serve you to your best intrests, but it exists and is being provided every time.
France has a minimum service legislation that requires them to serve traffic on top of that but it doesnt exactly remove the delays there does it?
They have been strike almost non-stop causing daily delays.
You may avoid complete closures with it, you won't remove the third party damage.
Minimum service means a service to a specified number of users, it does not mean full capacity.
And while I agree that might be better for the airspace users and the public, it does not solve any problem, it's just a bandage on a rotting wound.

From what rock did you just crawl under?
De Cuyper admitted that they had to force people to work 12 days in a row, spontaneously, in terzake on live television last week, maybe you missed that part like you miss all information you don't like. He didnt even bother to claim it was voluntary.
There has been no increase in staffing since then, how do you think he managed to "get rid of that and reduce it to maximum 9 shifts in a row" other than by reinterpreting a few rules? Nothing changed in reality.
Little to no ground to blame De Cuyper?
We have proof that he lies non stop and that conditions have been degrading steadily for years and that it's nearly all on him.
A lot of proof. Schedules, emails, incident reports, ...
Every airline/airport CEO or representative that sees this proof and hears our side (and I'm not talking about wild stories here, I'm only talking about issues we can prove) is baffled by the lies this management continues to spread, both in the media and in their face.
Only yesterday it took him less than 3 hours to lie about what was agreed with the unions to get us back to work.

Why do you think politics don't intervene?
Because we have that proof and we provided them with it months or years ago already and continue to do so.
We made them responsible for what is happening by their continuous inaction.
How does one even counter a factual report by the way, I'm curious?

The problem the Cuyper faces is that his policy may have delivered the good numbers his shareholders wanted, but it's not sustainable, legal or responsible. (Which we can prove as well)

Bash on the atcos all you want for what happened yesterday and the last few years, that's fine, I don't fully agree either and I won't defend it further.
But maybe try to include a fact every now and then instead of pretending your tunnelvision-knight on a white horse-opinion is the one and only truth.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

@Phoenixx
I don’t agree with your view of the minimum service at all. There is no minimum service in Belgium. Listening to emergency frequencies and provide help to aircrafts in emergencies is not a minimum service. It is a legal obligation and the least you can do as professionals. One Atco (usually the supervisor) stays in the ops room but ALL the others are leaving when there is a strike. Is this a minimum service? No. It’s just common sense.
A minimum service like in France is better than nothing and enables at least airlines to fly on a reduced schedule and with delays. This is way better than a total closure.
And above all it is announced well in advance! Companies can take measures and organize themselves (advise and rebook passengers). Here the airspace was closed without notice: this is unacceptable! Strike without notice is in your rights and it should be removed from the long lists of rights that you have (and misuse) as state emloyees..

And the reasons of the closure are just ridiculous: for an information meeting that was finally cancelled! What image are you guys giving of your job?

About what the CEO is doing, as mentioned before, he isn’t doing great for sure. But he also knows what you are doing, how little you work on position, how early you are going home, how little the traffic figures are. So he doesn’t feel scared to use it against you.
Still waiting by the way to get answers about how many people are planned at ACC per shift and we then can see how many ours controllers work per day. Or is it a secret?

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

mvg wrote: 17 May 2019, 10:18 @Phoenixx
I don’t agree with your view of the minimum service at all. There is no minimum service in Belgium. Listening to emergency frequencies and provide help to aircrafts in emergencies is not a minimum service. It is a legal obligation and the least you can do as professionals. One Atco (usually the supervisor) stays in the ops room but ALL the others are leaving when there is a strike. Is this a minimum service? No. It’s just common sense.
A minimum service like in France is better than nothing and enables at least airlines to fly on a reduced schedule and with delays. This is way better than a total closure.
And above all it is announced well in advance! Companies can take measures and organize themselves (advise and rebook passengers). Here the airspace was closed without notice: this is unacceptable! Strike without notice is in your rights and it should be removed from the long lists of rights that you have (and misuse) as state emloyees..

And the reasons of the closure are just ridiculous: for an information meeting that was finally cancelled! What image are you guys giving of your job?

About what the CEO is doing, as mentioned before, he isn’t doing great for sure. But he also knows what you are doing, how little you work on position, how early you are going home, how little the traffic figures are. So he doesn’t feel scared to use it against you.
Still waiting by the way to get answers about how many people are planned at ACC per shift and we then can see how ma u hours they work per day. Or is it a secret?
I'm not here to discuss this time or to defend yesterday, just counter wrong information.
It IS a minimum service by definition, and hate to break it to you but it's never just a supervisor.
I agreed it would be better for airlines and passengers to have a more extensive minimum service, I said it wouldn't solve anything.
There is a big difference. It would be better for continuity if we worked 30 days per month, that would not solve anything either.
And for your information, this was not a 'wild strike', the strike announcement has been there for months and is still valid.
While it was unexpected and unfortunate, the notice was there and the CEO knew very well this would happen.
They have been fishing for a strike for months, and they managed to push everyone over the line yesterday.
Once again, not here to defend, explain or argue about this.

Odd you mention low traffic figures, CEO keeps patting himself on the back for being among the best in Europe, so one of you is wrong.
I didnt give you the numbers because your assumptions regarding our work are wrong, so the only possible outcome is a wrong calculation, but sure: ACC has a Target staffing of 7 per early and 6 per late shift, staggered.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Matt »

Phoenixx wrote: 17 May 2019, 10:47
And for your information, this was not a 'wild strike', the strike announcement has been there for months and is still valid.
While it was unexpected and unfortunate, the notice was there and the CEO knew very well this would happen.
They have been fishing for a strike for months, and they managed to push everyone over the line yesterday.
Once again, not here to defend, explain or argue about this.
Public opinion doesn't care. Just saying. And public opinion might become valuable when atco's try to get another job afterwards...

The fine line was that, LIKE IN EVERY BIG COMPANY BTW, the managment wanted to communicate in smaller groups. Guess atco's have no feeling whatsoever with a real working environment. Try the private sector for a change and start crying. I'll come to film these babies.

If it was up to a lot of people ( including me ) every ATCO was fired yesterday. Reagan style, and give it to the military. ( unfortunately, not possible... )

As I said before: I get the WHY they strike (they are 100% right in the matter). The way how Atco's strike and act is childish.

One more thing: Atco's made their point now. Striking more will only deepen the wound. ( and the unions said they will... )

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sean1982 »

Phoenixx wrote: 17 May 2019, 09:51

We have proof that he lies non stop and that conditions have been degrading steadily for years and that it's nearly all on him.
Welcome to the real world buddy, thats what I said that from your ivory towers you dont know anymore whats going on in the real world.

Can you confirm people came back from holidays and days off for that important meeting that no active controller on duty could miss?

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

Matt wrote: 17 May 2019, 11:06 Public opinion doesn't care. Just saying. And public opinion might become valuable when atco's try to get another job afterwards...

The fine line was that, LIKE IN EVERY BIG COMPANY BTW, the managment wanted to communicate in smaller groups. Guess atco's have no feeling whatsoever with a real working environment. Try the private sector for a change and start crying. I'll come to film these babies.

If it was up to a lot of people ( including me ) every ATCO was fired yesterday. Reagan style, and give it to the military. ( unfortunately, not possible... )

As I said before: I get the WHY they strike (they are 100% right in the matter). The way how Atco's strike and act is childish.

One more thing: Atco's made their point now. Striking more will only deepen the wound. ( and the unions said they will... )
Public opinion and understanding was lost long ago, we are quite realistic on that one, no worries.

Ahhh yes, i forgot i was born and raised in the public sector as a state employee and never worked a day in my life before this job.

The fine line you're talking about is again published in the press by management.
Late Tuesday, they sent an email to canac that they would organise ONE session at 10 am on Thursday.
Not multiple sessions, not small groups, one session and it was sent only to canac. That's where people got pissed.
The 'multiple meetings' was only added next dat, and the small group multiple sessions they are referring to are info sessions that were planned long before this agreement was even on the table, they just conveniently changed their purpose as if they were intended for this to begin with.
Slightly different than the official version.

I'm glad it's not up to you then. But the CEO is one of those people too, he believes this will create pressure on us while we think the opposite.
Yes, we 'finally made a point' that should have been clear 4 months ago when the strike notice was filed but clearly got lost.
There is no intention of deepening that wound for the sole purpose of doing so. But you can be sure that if nothing changes, both from management side or politics side, there will be more actions. Hopefully not like this one but when it takes zero convincing for well over 200 atcos (spread over all all units, both within all 3 unions and without union, both in the BGATC and out of it) to take further action, it's hard to tell what will happen.
Although I doubt peace, quiet and undisrupted services will be achieved in the near future without a change or political interference.
sean1982 wrote: 17 May 2019, 11:12 Welcome to the real world buddy, thats what I said that from your ivory towers you dont know anymore whats going on in the real world.

Can you confirm people came back from holidays and days off for that important meeting that no active controller on duty could miss?
I was reacting to false information in another post, turning my words won't make your point much stronger.
And I was not aware the real world somehow forces you to roll over and just accept whatever they throw at you. It can try though.

Kind of hard to tell since they cancelled the meeting isn't it?

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