Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 16 May 2019, 22:09

sn26567 wrote:
16 May 2019, 19:02
A judge has just ruled that Belgian ANSP skeyes will have to pay €10,000 per flight (or €20,000 for long-haul routes) to Brussels Airlines if the airline has to cancel or delay flights by more than one hour due to ATC strikes between tomorrow and 26 May.

Brussels Airlines claims that it lost more than 4 million euros this year as a consequence of the social unrest at skeyes, without taking into account the loss in reputation and the fact that more and more passengers are opting for nearby foreign airports.
The Judge has probably forbitten all voluntary disruption of ATC, with a fine (dwangsom / astreinte) for each infract against his (or her) judgement.

Jetter
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Jetter » 16 May 2019, 22:12

SR20 wrote:
16 May 2019, 22:03
Jetter wrote:
16 May 2019, 21:41
It seems like not all atco’s are a problem, but mainly the Christian ones have a poor and selfish mentality. So much for looking not only after yourself as Christian value. :roll: It’s ACV that callled for the wildcat strike today, while the socialists already agreed on a deal. Maybe banning religious people from working as atco would be a long-term solution? :twisted:
VSOA/SLFP supported today's actions too I believe !
If that’s true then the socialists are the most willing to work and least willing to strike. What a surreal company Skyes is. :shock:

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by luchtzak » 16 May 2019, 23:32

jan_olieslagers wrote:
16 May 2019, 21:30
The request is understandable, but could it be met with? In a legal way? Surely any copy would be a breach of copyright?
Copying full text is surely not allowed, sharing pictures either (message from SR20 removed).

What is allowed is a brief summary with a link to the article.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Matt » 17 May 2019, 08:16

Jetter wrote:
16 May 2019, 22:12
SR20 wrote:
16 May 2019, 22:03
Jetter wrote:
16 May 2019, 21:41
It seems like not all atco’s are a problem, but mainly the Christian ones have a poor and selfish mentality. So much for looking not only after yourself as Christian value. :roll: It’s ACV that callled for the wildcat strike today, while the socialists already agreed on a deal. Maybe banning religious people from working as atco would be a long-term solution? :twisted:
VSOA/SLFP supported today's actions too I believe !
If that’s true then the socialists are the most willing to work and least willing to strike. What a surreal company Skyes is. :shock:
Everything that could go wrong goes wrong. Even the stereotypes :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 17 May 2019, 09:11

sn26567 wrote:
16 May 2019, 14:14
It's time for the Government to act and impose a minimum service rule, like at the Belgian Railways and the Walloon TEC (which just got a 1M euro fine because it did not carry out that minimum service in some regions on 14 May). And in case of a wildcat strike (= illegal), the strikers (or their unions) should be held personally responsible for any costs incurred by inconvenienced airlines and passengers.
A minimum service rule would indeed the solution to avoid that third parties are damaged in a social conflict (airlines, touroperators, passengers, cargo handlers). Portugal has such legislation.

Apart from the above examples (NMBS/SNCB/TEC), Belgium has no “strike legislation”. The only legal referral is The European Social Charter (which is a general framework) and some jurispridence by higher courts. None of them care about the damage that third parties suffer.
https://www.coe.int/en/web/european-social-charter

sn26567 wrote:
16 May 2019, 14:14
I had some comprehension for the demands of the ATCOs expressed in this forum and I realised that skeyes management bears a big responsibility in the degradation of their working conditions over the years. But ATCOs have lost all credibility in one single morning.
There is little or no ground to blame CEO Johan Decuyper. And working conditions have not been degraded: every factual report here has been countered. Just one example: “some people work for 12 consecutives days”. Reply: “yes, but it’s voluntary”.

Johan Decuyper (CD&V) has managed what his predesessor Jean-Claude Tintin (PS) couldn’t do: get the finances in order. Thanks to his educational skills, his practice skills ànd his political knowlegde and political contacts, Decuyper has realized that the regional airports ANR, OST, CRL, LGG finally pay for the Belgocontrol services. Brussels Airport still is the only airport paying a contribution, but since 2014 (or 2015), the regional authorities pay for the services rendered to their regional airports.

The problem that Decuyper faced, couldn’t be solved: staff that is irreplaceable, going on rampage "we want more".

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 May 2019, 09:51

A minimum service rule would indeed the solution to avoid that third parties are damaged in a social conflict (airlines, touroperators, passengers, cargo handlers). Portugal has such legislation.

Apart from the above examples (NMBS/SNCB/TEC), Belgium has no “strike legislation”. The only legal referral is The European Social Charter (which is a general framework) and some jurispridence by higher courts. None of them care about the damage that third parties suffer.
https://www.coe.int/en/web/european-social-charter

There is little or no ground to blame CEO Johan Decuyper. And working conditions have not been degraded: every factual report here has been countered. Just one example: “some people work for 12 consecutives days”. Reply: “yes, but it’s voluntary”.

Johan Decuyper (CD&V) has managed what his predesessor Jean-Claude Tintin (PS) couldn’t do: get the finances in order. Thanks to his educational skills, his practice skills ànd his political knowlegde and political contacts, Decuyper has realized that the regional airports ANR, OST, CRL, LGG finally pay for the Belgocontrol services. Brussels Airport still is the only airport paying a contribution, but since 2014 (or 2015), the regional authorities pay for the services rendered to their regional airports.

The problem that Decuyper faced, couldn’t be solved: staff that is irreplaceable, going on rampage "we want more".
Odd how every time I consider to not react for a bit you just have to start spreading lies again.

We háve a minimum service law, every "closed" unit has people working in case of emergency. This service may not serve you to your best intrests, but it exists and is being provided every time.
France has a minimum service legislation that requires them to serve traffic on top of that but it doesnt exactly remove the delays there does it?
They have been strike almost non-stop causing daily delays.
You may avoid complete closures with it, you won't remove the third party damage.
Minimum service means a service to a specified number of users, it does not mean full capacity.
And while I agree that might be better for the airspace users and the public, it does not solve any problem, it's just a bandage on a rotting wound.

From what rock did you just crawl under?
De Cuyper admitted that they had to force people to work 12 days in a row, spontaneously, in terzake on live television last week, maybe you missed that part like you miss all information you don't like. He didnt even bother to claim it was voluntary.
There has been no increase in staffing since then, how do you think he managed to "get rid of that and reduce it to maximum 9 shifts in a row" other than by reinterpreting a few rules? Nothing changed in reality.
Little to no ground to blame De Cuyper?
We have proof that he lies non stop and that conditions have been degrading steadily for years and that it's nearly all on him.
A lot of proof. Schedules, emails, incident reports, ...
Every airline/airport CEO or representative that sees this proof and hears our side (and I'm not talking about wild stories here, I'm only talking about issues we can prove) is baffled by the lies this management continues to spread, both in the media and in their face.
Only yesterday it took him less than 3 hours to lie about what was agreed with the unions to get us back to work.

Why do you think politics don't intervene?
Because we have that proof and we provided them with it months or years ago already and continue to do so.
We made them responsible for what is happening by their continuous inaction.
How does one even counter a factual report by the way, I'm curious?

The problem the Cuyper faces is that his policy may have delivered the good numbers his shareholders wanted, but it's not sustainable, legal or responsible. (Which we can prove as well)

Bash on the atcos all you want for what happened yesterday and the last few years, that's fine, I don't fully agree either and I won't defend it further.
But maybe try to include a fact every now and then instead of pretending your tunnelvision-knight on a white horse-opinion is the one and only truth.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 17 May 2019, 10:18

@Phoenixx
I don’t agree with your view of the minimum service at all. There is no minimum service in Belgium. Listening to emergency frequencies and provide help to aircrafts in emergencies is not a minimum service. It is a legal obligation and the least you can do as professionals. One Atco (usually the supervisor) stays in the ops room but ALL the others are leaving when there is a strike. Is this a minimum service? No. It’s just common sense.
A minimum service like in France is better than nothing and enables at least airlines to fly on a reduced schedule and with delays. This is way better than a total closure.
And above all it is announced well in advance! Companies can take measures and organize themselves (advise and rebook passengers). Here the airspace was closed without notice: this is unacceptable! Strike without notice is in your rights and it should be removed from the long lists of rights that you have (and misuse) as state emloyees..

And the reasons of the closure are just ridiculous: for an information meeting that was finally cancelled! What image are you guys giving of your job?

About what the CEO is doing, as mentioned before, he isn’t doing great for sure. But he also knows what you are doing, how little you work on position, how early you are going home, how little the traffic figures are. So he doesn’t feel scared to use it against you.
Still waiting by the way to get answers about how many people are planned at ACC per shift and we then can see how many ours controllers work per day. Or is it a secret?

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 May 2019, 10:47

mvg wrote:
17 May 2019, 10:18
@Phoenixx
I don’t agree with your view of the minimum service at all. There is no minimum service in Belgium. Listening to emergency frequencies and provide help to aircrafts in emergencies is not a minimum service. It is a legal obligation and the least you can do as professionals. One Atco (usually the supervisor) stays in the ops room but ALL the others are leaving when there is a strike. Is this a minimum service? No. It’s just common sense.
A minimum service like in France is better than nothing and enables at least airlines to fly on a reduced schedule and with delays. This is way better than a total closure.
And above all it is announced well in advance! Companies can take measures and organize themselves (advise and rebook passengers). Here the airspace was closed without notice: this is unacceptable! Strike without notice is in your rights and it should be removed from the long lists of rights that you have (and misuse) as state emloyees..

And the reasons of the closure are just ridiculous: for an information meeting that was finally cancelled! What image are you guys giving of your job?

About what the CEO is doing, as mentioned before, he isn’t doing great for sure. But he also knows what you are doing, how little you work on position, how early you are going home, how little the traffic figures are. So he doesn’t feel scared to use it against you.
Still waiting by the way to get answers about how many people are planned at ACC per shift and we then can see how ma u hours they work per day. Or is it a secret?
I'm not here to discuss this time or to defend yesterday, just counter wrong information.
It IS a minimum service by definition, and hate to break it to you but it's never just a supervisor.
I agreed it would be better for airlines and passengers to have a more extensive minimum service, I said it wouldn't solve anything.
There is a big difference. It would be better for continuity if we worked 30 days per month, that would not solve anything either.
And for your information, this was not a 'wild strike', the strike announcement has been there for months and is still valid.
While it was unexpected and unfortunate, the notice was there and the CEO knew very well this would happen.
They have been fishing for a strike for months, and they managed to push everyone over the line yesterday.
Once again, not here to defend, explain or argue about this.

Odd you mention low traffic figures, CEO keeps patting himself on the back for being among the best in Europe, so one of you is wrong.
I didnt give you the numbers because your assumptions regarding our work are wrong, so the only possible outcome is a wrong calculation, but sure: ACC has a Target staffing of 7 per early and 6 per late shift, staggered.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Matt » 17 May 2019, 11:06

Phoenixx wrote:
17 May 2019, 10:47

And for your information, this was not a 'wild strike', the strike announcement has been there for months and is still valid.
While it was unexpected and unfortunate, the notice was there and the CEO knew very well this would happen.
They have been fishing for a strike for months, and they managed to push everyone over the line yesterday.
Once again, not here to defend, explain or argue about this.
Public opinion doesn't care. Just saying. And public opinion might become valuable when atco's try to get another job afterwards...

The fine line was that, LIKE IN EVERY BIG COMPANY BTW, the managment wanted to communicate in smaller groups. Guess atco's have no feeling whatsoever with a real working environment. Try the private sector for a change and start crying. I'll come to film these babies.

If it was up to a lot of people ( including me ) every ATCO was fired yesterday. Reagan style, and give it to the military. ( unfortunately, not possible... )

As I said before: I get the WHY they strike (they are 100% right in the matter). The way how Atco's strike and act is childish.

One more thing: Atco's made their point now. Striking more will only deepen the wound. ( and the unions said they will... )

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sean1982 » 17 May 2019, 11:12

Phoenixx wrote:
17 May 2019, 09:51


We have proof that he lies non stop and that conditions have been degrading steadily for years and that it's nearly all on him.
Welcome to the real world buddy, thats what I said that from your ivory towers you dont know anymore whats going on in the real world.

Can you confirm people came back from holidays and days off for that important meeting that no active controller on duty could miss?

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 May 2019, 13:11

Matt wrote:
17 May 2019, 11:06
Public opinion doesn't care. Just saying. And public opinion might become valuable when atco's try to get another job afterwards...

The fine line was that, LIKE IN EVERY BIG COMPANY BTW, the managment wanted to communicate in smaller groups. Guess atco's have no feeling whatsoever with a real working environment. Try the private sector for a change and start crying. I'll come to film these babies.

If it was up to a lot of people ( including me ) every ATCO was fired yesterday. Reagan style, and give it to the military. ( unfortunately, not possible... )

As I said before: I get the WHY they strike (they are 100% right in the matter). The way how Atco's strike and act is childish.

One more thing: Atco's made their point now. Striking more will only deepen the wound. ( and the unions said they will... )
Public opinion and understanding was lost long ago, we are quite realistic on that one, no worries.

Ahhh yes, i forgot i was born and raised in the public sector as a state employee and never worked a day in my life before this job.

The fine line you're talking about is again published in the press by management.
Late Tuesday, they sent an email to canac that they would organise ONE session at 10 am on Thursday.
Not multiple sessions, not small groups, one session and it was sent only to canac. That's where people got pissed.
The 'multiple meetings' was only added next dat, and the small group multiple sessions they are referring to are info sessions that were planned long before this agreement was even on the table, they just conveniently changed their purpose as if they were intended for this to begin with.
Slightly different than the official version.

I'm glad it's not up to you then. But the CEO is one of those people too, he believes this will create pressure on us while we think the opposite.
Yes, we 'finally made a point' that should have been clear 4 months ago when the strike notice was filed but clearly got lost.
There is no intention of deepening that wound for the sole purpose of doing so. But you can be sure that if nothing changes, both from management side or politics side, there will be more actions. Hopefully not like this one but when it takes zero convincing for well over 200 atcos (spread over all all units, both within all 3 unions and without union, both in the BGATC and out of it) to take further action, it's hard to tell what will happen.
Although I doubt peace, quiet and undisrupted services will be achieved in the near future without a change or political interference.
sean1982 wrote:
17 May 2019, 11:12
Welcome to the real world buddy, thats what I said that from your ivory towers you dont know anymore whats going on in the real world.

Can you confirm people came back from holidays and days off for that important meeting that no active controller on duty could miss?
I was reacting to false information in another post, turning my words won't make your point much stronger.
And I was not aware the real world somehow forces you to roll over and just accept whatever they throw at you. It can try though.

Kind of hard to tell since they cancelled the meeting isn't it?

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 17 May 2019, 13:25

Phoenixx wrote:
17 May 2019, 10:47
mvg wrote:
17 May 2019, 10:18
@Phoenixx
I don’t agree with your view of the minimum service at all. There is no minimum service in Belgium. Listening to emergency frequencies and provide help to aircrafts in emergencies is not a minimum service. It is a legal obligation and the least you can do as professionals. One Atco (usually the supervisor) stays in the ops room but ALL the others are leaving when there is a strike. Is this a minimum service? No. It’s just common sense.
A minimum service like in France is better than nothing and enables at least airlines to fly on a reduced schedule and with delays. This is way better than a total closure.
And above all it is announced well in advance! Companies can take measures and organize themselves (advise and rebook passengers). Here the airspace was closed without notice: this is unacceptable! Strike without notice is in your rights and it should be removed from the long lists of rights that you have (and misuse) as state emloyees..

And the reasons of the closure are just ridiculous: for an information meeting that was finally cancelled! What image are you guys giving of your job?

About what the CEO is doing, as mentioned before, he isn’t doing great for sure. But he also knows what you are doing, how little you work on position, how early you are going home, how little the traffic figures are. So he doesn’t feel scared to use it against you.
Still waiting by the way to get answers about how many people are planned at ACC per shift and we then can see how ma u hours they work per day. Or is it a secret?
I'm not here to discuss this time or to defend yesterday, just counter wrong information.
It IS a minimum service by definition, and hate to break it to you but it's never just a supervisor.
I agreed it would be better for airlines and passengers to have a more extensive minimum service, I said it wouldn't solve anything.
There is a big difference. It would be better for continuity if we worked 30 days per month, that would not solve anything either.
And for your information, this was not a 'wild strike', the strike announcement has been there for months and is still valid.
While it was unexpected and unfortunate, the notice was there and the CEO knew very well this would happen.
They have been fishing for a strike for months, and they managed to push everyone over the line yesterday.
Once again, not here to defend, explain or argue about this.

Odd you mention low traffic figures, CEO keeps patting himself on the back for being among the best in Europe, so one of you is wrong.
I didnt give you the numbers because your assumptions regarding our work are wrong, so the only possible outcome is a wrong calculation, but sure: ACC has a Target staffing of 7 per early and 6 per late shift, staggered.
OK if you want to call "a minimum service" handling only traffic in emergency if there is a strike. We can play on the words.

Yesterday was not a wild strike because there was a "stakingsaanzegging/préavis de grève" for months? So that means that all airlines should have known about it and be ready for the strike? Which airline seriously cares about a small group of controllers that have requests that they don't even know what they mean? Do you think that (for example) an American airline or Chinese airline is taking into account the very important belgian "stakingsaanzegging/préavis de grève" when they make their daily planning? Come on controllers! You are not the centre of the world! Just a little part of the chain which unfortunately is not replacable.
When there is a strike in France, it is planned in advance, airlines take measures, reduce their number of flights and anticipate so that not too many people come to the airport. Here passengers were at the airport, waiting, angry at the counters. Would controllers now dare to face hostesses that were at the Brussels Airlines counter yesterday facing angry and agressive passengers (not all of them of course)? Would they dare to stand in front of them and explain their working conditions and why they are striking, sitting comfortably in their restroom while those employees are facing a queue of hundreds of people impatient and angry at them? In which world do controllers live?

I appreciate your time spent here and also that you don't want to defend yesterday's actions. We have notice that your explanations were often very precise and "to the point". But please tell your colleagues (they probably heard it already), those who lead this movement, that they are a disgrace to your profession. And a shame for our country.

About my "assumptions" about your work, they are not assumptions but situations observed several times recently accross all units/services of your company (all of them without exceptions, being the five towers, Canac, technical services, MET offices, briefing office, training centre, administrative building or the 5 star kitchen of your restaurant in Steenokkerzeel). Probably you haven't even seen all of them yourself ;)

The figures I mentioned are the traffic figures: they are low compared to other airports or units in Europe. The CEO speaks about safety figures and they are low as well, meaning there have been little incidents over the last two years, which is good but also normal when you don't have too much traffic.

About the figures for ACC: target of 7 Atcos per side (west or east):
- 7 Atcos for 7 hours to cover (a morning being from 07.00 till 14.00 then afternoons are coming)
- IF two sectors are open (for west it is the BIG maximum), that's 4 controllers into position at a time (2 per sector) -> 7 hours x 4 positions = 28 hours to cover -> 4 hours of work per Atco.
- if they collapse on one sector for 2 hours during the shift, the number of hours to cover falls down to 24 -> 3,5 hours per Atco per shift
- if they collapse on one sector for 4 hours during the shift, the number of hours to cover is 20 -> less than 3 hours per shift per Atco
Of course, if the target of 7 Atcos isn't met, they have to work a bit more OR collapse positions more...
Questions:
1) is that calculation wrong?
2) where else in Europe do Atcos work less than that?

Again Phoenixx, no personal blame. The leaders (those with extreme thoughts) read us but don't take time to defend themselves because they are undefendable. Thank you for your time.
Last edited by mvg on 17 May 2019, 14:01, edited 1 time in total.

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Boeing767copilot » 17 May 2019, 13:47

I want to intervene to thank both Phoenixx and MVG for this interesting and polite debate on this forum. Continue like this, very interesting.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Boeing767copilot » 17 May 2019, 13:59

There have been rumors that ATCOs and unions asked additional fees. Amounts from 40,000 to 60,000 euros extra are mentioned. Is that correct, Phoenixx?

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by 737MAX » 17 May 2019, 14:15

Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 May 2019, 13:47
I want to intervene to thank both Phoenixx and MVG for this interesting and polite debate on this forum. Continue like this, very interesting.
Indeed. Things would probably be easier if everybody could behave that way in reality too ;)

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by epsilon » 17 May 2019, 14:18

I see again several regulations today due to ATC staffing, slots upto 1 hour. Regulation EBWSC17A

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 May 2019, 15:43

mvg wrote:
17 May 2019, 13:25
OK if you want to call "a minimum service" handling only traffic in emergency if there is a strike. We can play on the words.

Yesterday was not a wild strike because there was a "stakingsaanzegging/préavis de grève" for months? So that means that all airlines should have known about it and be ready for the strike? Which airline seriously cares about a small group of controllers that have requests that they don't even know what they mean? Do you think that (for example) an American airline or Chinese airline is taking into account the very important belgian "stakingsaanzegging/préavis de grève" when they make their daily planning? Come on controllers! You are not the centre of the world! Just a little part of the chain which unfortunately is not replacable.
When there is a strike in France, it is planned in advance, airlines take measures, reduce their number of flights and anticipate so that not too many people come to the airport. Here passengers were at the airport, waiting, angry at the counters. Would controllers now dare to face hostesses that were at the Brussels Airlines counter yesterday facing angry and agressive passengers (not all of them of course)? Would they dare to stand in front of them and explain their working conditions and why they are striking, sitting comfortably in their restroom while those employees are facing a queue of hundreds of people impatient and angry at them? In which world do controllers live?

I appreciate your time spent here and also that you don't want to defend yesterday's actions. We have notice that your explanations were often very precise and "to the point". But please tell your colleagues (they probably heard it already), those who lead this movement, that they are a disgrace to your profession. And a shame for our country.

About my "assumptions" about your work, they are not assumptions but situations observed several times recently accross all units/services of your company (all of them without exceptions, being the five towers, Canac, technical services, MET offices, briefing office, training centre, administrative building or the 5 star kitchen of your restaurant in Steenokkerzeel). Probably you haven't even seen all of them yourself ;)

The figures I mentioned are the traffic figures: they are low compared to other airports or units in Europe. The CEO speaks about safety figures and they are low as well, meaning there have been little incidents over the last two years, which is good but also normal when you don't have too much traffic.

About the figures for ACC: target of 7 Atcos per side (west or east):
- 7 Atcos for 7 hours to cover (a morning being from 07.00 till 14.00 then afternoons are coming)
- IF two sectors are open (for west it is the BIG maximum), that's 4 controllers into position at a time (2 per sector) -> 7 hours x 4 positions = 28 hours to cover -> 4 hours of work per Atco.
- if they collapse on one sector for 2 hours during the shift, the number of hours to cover falls down to 24 -> 3,5 hours per Atco per shift
- if they collapse on one sector for 4 hours during the shift, the number of hours to cover is 20 -> less than 3 hours per shift per Atco
Of course, if the target of 7 Atcos isn't met, they have to work a bit more OR collapse positions more...
Questions:
1) is that calculation wrong?
2) where else in Europe do Atcos work less than that?

Again Phoenixx, no personal blame. The leaders (those with extreme thoughts) read us but don't take time to defend themselves because they are undefendable. Thank you for your time.
I wasn't doing so for the wordplay, I was simply pointing out that there are still a supervisor and an atco present despite what everyone might think, we are following that legal obligation.
I was also making the point that a "minimum service" is an empty container by itself since even these 2 atcos in a big unit in this case serve no purpose to planned traffic affected by a strike or shortage.

I was not referring to the airlines that should have been aware of our strike announcement, i meant our management.
Like I said, and I do appreciate your tone and words, I do not agree completely on the what, the how and the effect we had on airspace users and their customers.

Honestly confused about the assumptions you are talking about here, but now you've made me quite curious to how and when you have seen all these units and what you experienced there.
I was talking about the calculations you do at the end of your post.
I won't argue with your maths obviously, but there you have the issue already, the staffing has to be prepared for opening all sectors actually, and we don't meet quite meet that anymore.
There are days where 7 is not enough and there are days where 7 is almost ridiculous. What's the point of keeping a sector open if there is no need for it?
You could calculate for one sector open all shift even, 14 hours, is 2 hours of work per atco and scream outrage about that, but do the calculation for 3 sectors and you have an issue. Aviation is a flexible and unpredictable thing, our job depends on traffic demands, weather, runway configuration in our airports and the surrounding ones, ... A reduction of staff means a reduction of possible maximum capacity and giving staff on extra break additional non-ops tasks could be an option, but changes nothing about the operational staff shortage we are facing now. Someone who is not there can not jump in and open a sector when it is needed, can not replace a sick colleague and can not assist in unusual of unexpected situations.

As long as you don't scream for my resignation or try to nail me to a cross like a lot of people, even here, i won't take much personal blame.
You know what you are talking about and while you may not agree on everything I say and vice versa, you listen. I prefer civilized conversation too.

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KriVa
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by KriVa » 17 May 2019, 15:45

Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 May 2019, 13:59
There have been rumors that ATCOs and unions asked additional fees. Amounts from 40,000 to 60,000 euros extra are mentioned. Is that correct, Phoenixx?
That sounds far from realistic, since not a single ATCO is asking for a raise/extra pay/monetary gain. All that’s asked is a structural and realistic solution for the staffing problem, combined with a realistic work-life balance.
So, I can’t say for sure it wasn’t mentioned, because I wasn’t in during the meetings, it sounds really, really far fetched compared to what I’ve been hearing from others.
Thomas

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 May 2019, 15:49

Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 May 2019, 13:59
There have been rumors that ATCOs and unions asked additional fees. Amounts from 40,000 to 60,000 euros extra are mentioned. Is that correct, Phoenixx?
I laughed a bit.
We have been refusing any and all financial benefits because that has always where we lost all sympathy and honestly money can not solve the issues this is about, which are work life balance, following rules and respecting the staff.
Maybe management made a calculation that one or all of our demands would cost the company this much to make our demands seem absurd (I strongly doubt it since we simply want our rights and rules respected), but I can tell you we did not make a demand for any additional fees, and surely not for amounts this ridiculously high. I have never even heard this before, where did you get this information if I may ask?

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sean1982 » 17 May 2019, 16:10

Phoenixx wrote:
17 May 2019, 13:11

sean1982 wrote:
17 May 2019, 11:12
Welcome to the real world buddy, thats what I said that from your ivory towers you dont know anymore whats going on in the real world.

Can you confirm people came back from holidays and days off for that important meeting that no active controller on duty could miss?
I was reacting to false information in another post, turning my words won't make your point much stronger.
And I was not aware the real world somehow forces you to roll over and just accept whatever they throw at you. It can try though.

Kind of hard to tell since they cancelled the meeting isn't it?
As the meeting was cancelled last minute they should have been on the way already no? Is that the case?

Rolling over and accepting everything is meant ti be sarcastic no with all the Working conditions an non-contractual acquired rights you already have??

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