Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

737MAX wrote: 18 Apr 2019, 22:51
One other thing is sure; the media never talked about the flexibility of those ATCO's. The general public only sees "fake doctor attests", "strikes", "actions", while many of them still cancel their days off to replace sick colleagues. That has been going on for ages. Don't you think too much flexibility has an end? Well, the end is now, apparently.
I know from a confirmed source that if the business continuity is possible tonight, it's because an ATCO agreed to make the night in LGG although he was officially on holiday till next tuesday. There was indeed an ATCO missing for the night shift in LGG and a staff shortage in LGG would have made impossible the business continuity procedure !

Something not mentioned in the media indeed !

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

SR20 wrote: 18 Apr 2019, 20:34 No. Portion of airspace is delegated from Brussels ACC to Liege Approach enabling a direct coordination between Liege and Langen. German ATCO'S don't do anything more than usual (even less as traffic is regulated : max 6 mouvements an hour ! )
Thank you for this much needed clarification.
In the press today, all I could find is they need German atcos to step in and take over because belgian atcos -fake- call sick as social action... Odd, considering they wrote based on information our management and press division provided.

This is indeed a procedure that was brought to life long before the current situation to provide a chance at continuity in case of issues in the east ACC sector. Again, this 6 aircraft maximum is not determined by air traffic controllers and has been subject to safety studies.
It is a procedure where belgian atcos from one unit -Liège- are given temporary control over a "corridor" from other belgian atcos airspace -acc east- to make sure the airport is not closed off from the European airspace as they are in the middle of the ACC sector and the Liège TMA has no direct connection to non-belgian airspace.

Although it is a backup procedure and not meant to become some sort of standard, all involved parties are pleased with this option being available and being used, it means no closure of the airport, at worst a detour and/or some delay or small slots.

I also appreciate the remark about the eblg controller.
It might seem a logical form of flexibility for some people to give up the last 4 days of your vacation for something like this, I can guarantee you that it is not.
A small step forward in getting rid of the effects of the Skeyes internal conflict.

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

Hi B737MAX and the others,

Yes we could discuss endless about this subject. We have all said what we thought and the reality must be somewhere in between like usually. It also much depends on our situations, what we compare it to.

Let me answer your points though:

- unlike pilots, when an Atco is on a break, he is on a real break and can go to the restroom, for a walk, to eat, give phone calls, work for another job, and forget about his/her job. A break happens outside of the ops-room (or tower). So yes, unlike pilots who stay in the cockpit, an Atco's break is a real break.

Outside their effective hours of work (my calculation was for a night) Atcos are at work (in the premises or not too far) but they have a real break. During those break hours at night, they can sleep in a real bed (they have bedrooms in Canac for example, which is excellent to have a good nap/sleep when working at night).

Moreover for a night, they are given 4 extra hours which they don't have to spend at work (10 hours is paid 14).
We can also say that accross most of the units Atcos "steal" one hour at the end of their shifts by leaving early before it officially ends. This is of course not authorized but everyone (including management) closes their eyes (it's part of the package, like many say). Consequently and regularly an Atco's day then lasts 6 hours but is still paid and counted like 7. After 7 such days, we can count that Atcos have been paid one day for free (7 times one hour "stolen" from the company -> not worked, not present at work but paid).

This is reality and let me add some comments to yours:
1) we are all happy that they can have good breaks, that they can use the system a bit with the hours, that they can sleep in a bed at night: no problem! No critic! But the way they are complaining by only mentioning the bad sides of the situation is not correct. Excatly like the management only tries to make Atcos guilty of the situation (I agree with you and Phoenixx). It is a shared responsibilty.

2) I do not want to compare a pilot and Atco's job. But as Phoenixx did (for the salary), I had to answer. And of course pilots are not only working during take-off and landing. Both jobs have their advantages and disadvantages.
But for sure a pilot's job is much less secure and flexible: you cannot go back home one hour before landing ;) If they make mistakes they will be blamed and fired way more quicker (Atcos are NEVER fired and almost never blamed for working improperly (let me come back on this later)).

3) Atco's package is a big concern for them at the moment: the package includes their working conditions (not only the salary which indeed is not put into question at this moment).

- Do Atcos deserve the same conditions as their neighbors? This idea is connected to the previous one and let me explain it again in case it was misunderstood.
First of all (and it was said on this forum many times by Atcos), Atcos have always pretended (and dreamt) that the working conditions were better in the neighboring countries, that their conditions should be equal to what others have and so on. They have even asked for studies to compare the packages (conditions + salary).

Yes they deserve the same conditions BUT "same means same".
Let's take France as an example: a controller is getting a job according to his/her results when he graduates from university. The best can choose first among the available spots in the different units accross the country. Salaries are different according to the unit in which you work and the amount of traffic.
In Belgium, the one with most seniority (possibly the worse one, nobody cares) gets the spot he wants: huge difference!
And everyone has the same salary regardless of the unit and/or the traffic. All tower Atcos are on the same salary scale and so are radar controllers in Canac. Another huge difference! Because as I said in my answer to Phoenixx, if you apply the French scale to belgian Atcos, they are all going to earn less because they have much less traffic than Atcos in Paris which is the scale they always use to compare to their own salary and complain.
One of the big problem in Skeyes is the fact that the one with the most seniority gets priority over all the other ones to choose any job! Even to become a supervisor or a team leader. We all know how important such a job can be. It could be that a very skilled person is blocked by an absolutely incompetent one during many years, just because he/she was born one week after the other. How do you want a system to work properly like that? Controllers have been refusing for years to stop the seniority system. Part of the problems they have now is because of that system!

- About how ATC is done in other country: I find ATC here very irregular. If you are lucky you can have a brilliant service (professional, straight forward, friendly, nice vectors, and so on) but sometimes (half of the time) it's the total opposite. You are a pilot and know that.
Basically, when you fly in and out of Belgium, you never know what is going to happen to you, how long you are going to fly, how many vectors you are going to receive. How many times have you been put in the holding when there is too much traffic? Isn't that the safest procedure to have a correct fuel calculation? They don't want because it affects their proudness to put a plane in the holding... Can you believe it?
And this is another problem that Atcos refuse to tackle. They don't want their work and efficiency to be assessed. If a pilot flies outside his SOPs, he is gonna be blamed immediately (fired if its repeated). Here an Atco can work almost like he wants! With no consequence, he/she can give a plane a straight-in approach or give him 20 extra miles because he/she feels like, because he/she is not competent, because he/she is scared, and so on...
Pilots have to justify any minute of delay... Atcos in many countries are assessed daily, here not.
Of course the service is poor in some countries. I suppose you refer for example to southern Europe. Have you checked with which material they are working? An Atco cannot have the same efficiency with a state-of-the-art system as he can have with an old radar (and sometimes without). Same if only one Atco is working at a position instead of two or three. But yes, we agree, in some places the service could be better.

- Shifts swap: already answered but yes it's a great advantage! Total freedom! You want to be free tomorrow evening for any reason? Swap with a colleague who has a morning or an afternoon shift that finishes early and that's it. Without asking anybody else! And without any rule! You need to be free tomorrow? Just swap with someone who has a day off. Wouldn't you like that? No controller wants to change the rostering system (they want to work less but not change the system).

Each month they put in a roster request and get 80-90% of the time what they have asked: isn't it nice?
Don't misunderstand me: it is great and I am not criticizing this! Only saying that this is a very interesting/important part of their package which is not mentioned by them when they complain about their work conditions.

- I do not think that management is doing a good job. Not at all. Atcos could be treated better, we agree. If they are highly qualified and if the standards are high, I doubt.... No regular check, no real test, no decent refresher course (ask an Atco): how can standards be kept high? It's not even their fault. How can someone be up to standard if he is not trained/checked/going to the sim during 10 years?

- About their flexibility, we agree: Atcos are (for most of them) very flexible workers. Let me remind you that when they were interviewed during their recruitment process, they all said that they were happy to work shifts (including afternoons, nights and weekends) and now some of them REFUSE to work anything else than mornings... That's a minority of course but that exists!
And yes, flexibility can come to an end when it is exaggerated but then it's both ways: no more flexibility for the shifts swaps, no more early leave (many have stops with the recent events but that's very recent and because they are scared) and so on. And that's what management is trying badly to put in place.

- Yes much more could be done to find solutions from all the parties involved and the press is saying a lot of stupid things (100% agree with you). That's why we are talking here, to have all the opinions and make up ours. Nothing wrong.

Do I have to say that I don't get this kind of detailed information from a journalist? So let's avoid the "do you know what working shifts is?" or "You don't know this job"... I do very well...

Like yours, my conclusion is:
- we all want these disruptions to end and,
- we need ATC to be handled at European level (simplify airspace, countries working together, similar conditions/packages (according to the workload), standardization in everything: systems, procedures, training, checks, courses, free routes (as much as possible), better efficiency, better use of resources, and so on. Enough with landing in Rome and having to fly like that and then back to Brussels and having to fly like this.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Dear mvg,

I note in your long post above
Quote :
Here an Atco can work almost like he wants! With no consequence, he/she can give a plane a straight-in approach or give him 20 extra miles because he/she feels like, because he/she is not competent, because he/she is scared, and so on...
End quote/

ATCOs WHO ARE NOT COMPETENT or SCARED
Do you really mean this?

If not you may want to delete your post. And I will delete mine as nobody has yet commented on the above.
We all do mistakes, and I do my share.

Maybe it was a bit too early this morning when you wrote this and maybe you should have had a break before.
You know, a break like those overpaid and lazy fat cats ATCOs do so often. Precisely to limit the risk of doing mistakes.

H.A.

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

Hi H.A.,

I do confirm and could have added examples with callsigns/dates/times, but then you would have looked at rosters and pointed at individuals which is not the aim here.

And if you would have read my post carefully, I wrote that that it was possibly coming from a lack of training, decent refresher, proper testing and so on.
I also stated that some Atcos were giving an excellent service.

Of course the terms “good”, “bad”, “excellent”, “incompetent” are only a personal opinion. The extra miles flown for nothing are facts observed (I am sure by you too).

Talking about the other adjectives supposedly used to describe controllers, which ones do you use to describe the thousands of people that were impacted during the very useful strikes? “unimportant” or “stupid” passengers?
The word “seniority” comes for sure before the word “passenger” in your dictionary.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

I see mvg does know what he is talking about and has a lot of inside information. Not that I agree to it all, but to avoid another lengthy post I will not reply in full.

The good sides to our job are indeed often not mentioned to their full extent by Atcos, but can you imagine how long an interview, post or a letter would be if we went through everything?
I have seen aviation contracts with a length of over 15 pages, and that is just the 'rules and rights' part. A person actually working this job will easily be able to add 15 more pages to that with the reality of working, their practical experience, the issues they meet that are not mentioned, the holes in the system, ...
And you know what would happen if that went public; outrage over a few beneficial points that you can fit in a single page and the 29 others at best somewhere in the back of the head.
They emphasize our benefits and remain quiet about the violations and downsides, a logical reaction is we do the same with the problems.

We are open to have a look at our package deal and the conditions of working, but you can not expect anyone to simply accept their rights being taken, unpopular measures being implemented against everybodys intrest (that includes the airspace user and the companys intrests too...) and their benefits to disappear, because a CEO decided he can squeeze a bit more out of his lemon.
This situation was the same last year and the year before but we had great numbers (quote De Cuyper). Ever wondered why that is?
Because we did what was needed, we sacrificed yet another off day, we worked another long series of days and another, we were as flexible as needed. We still had a small belief in the back of our minds that everything would get better with our patience and new trainees. Not taking vacation days, no parental leave, working with a reduced staffing without flow, .... Ofcourse we were complaining, things were still going very wrong and the efforts made to fix them were not the correct ones, but we tried to keep our problems internal and limit the effects to the outside world.
The management saw this and figured they had space to go even further. They did not. He intervened in a system that was sort of sustainable and wanted to take away the few benefits that made controllers go that extra mile.
He saw the neighbouring countries (this is how we got to comparing to neighbouring countries too) having a grid system. 4 days of work and 2 off (or 6-3). He imagined he would be able to control and predict staffing more with this instead of having to count on controllers goodwill. He only forgot this system does not work AT ALL if you're shortstaffed 25%. He lied and we called him out on it, the outside world did not.
He saw direct recruitments for approach and acc and saw an opportunity, but failed to see the 50 people in the company that had been flexible and waiting for over 6 years to start this training (because the rules said they had the right), who have a shorter training compared to new trainees and a better knowledge of the airspace and the job already. (I don't want to say a guarantee higher chance of succeeding, but in reality this is sort of the case though). So he lied to us and the public. We saw through it, most of the public did not.
He imagined an opportunity for more management control and tried to take it, drawing a perfect picture with a solution to all issues as a result, we know this to be a lie and a deliberate attempt to mislead all parties invoved and the public opinion.

Now even if tomorrow we would get a 4/2 grid, nightshifts counting for only one day, direct entry trainees, all rules and laws subject to the holy grail of operational continuity (aka subject to the will of management) , ... the current issues would not be solved for another 3-5 years without our continued additional goodwill to do extra shifts, give up off days and vacation days, give up parental leave and other legal rights.
So the resulting situation would not change at all, but the working conditions would decrease drastically and it would still all be our fault. Thank you but no thank you, we will pass on that.

Note: I did not want to draw a picture of a samaritan controller here at all, I just try to show what situation/mindset we are in and how we got there. The constant bashing and misinformation by our management and the media is annoying and meant to pressure and discredit us, but we have accepted this a long time ago.

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

Phoenixx, thank you for that great explanation. If all of them were like you, things would have been different from the start.

About the wrong management: you are correct.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Politics are beginning to take action: Wallonian regional authorities to disrupt payments to skeyes. The article hastens to add, though, that only a small part of Skeyes' revenue is from them, so perhaps they won't be too much bothered.

In Dutch: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/04/19 ... ersleider/

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

737MAX wrote: 19 Apr 2019, 17:47 Thanks once again mvg & Phoenixx for these constructive inputs.

This proves one more time that the medias manipulate people, instead of giving them the correct information.

Another point in common here is that the skeyes management seems to be seriously blamed.
Or more precisely; the CEO.

I think it's high time to evaluate the management of skeyes... but that doesn't seem to be on the table, at all.
We are indeed at a disadvantage here, we are not allowed to talk to media unauthorized (and honestly, who in their right mind would give this approval knowing what is happening) and we are not allowed to discredit the company in any way.
The only legal link we have to the media, airlines and airspace users are the unions, and they already have their hands more than full negotiating and receiving new complaints and violations from employees daily. While they have a press division, we have the obligation to remain silent.

When results of lawsuits are made public (later this year) and politics intervene (eta unknown), hopefully management ánd the company will be subject to evaluation. We will ofcourse not come out better or free of any blame for the current situation, but we are the asking party for this.
And although the results of that evaluation will undoubtably be covered up or cleaned up before they ever reach the public (our CEO was politically appointed so with full disclosure they would probably embarass themselves), we are waiting for this to happen.

Just today I read about minister Bellot hopping on board of the blame it on the fake sick controllers train. Shame we come out like this again , but we will see what happens when he takes a more thorough look at the situation, after all he has the access and the right (maybe even the duty?) to do so.

Acid-drop
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Acid-drop »

Everything is under control : the minister is wondering is we are about to cross the line. Now an audit and within 5 years we'll know if we did cross the line.
Then someone will get some super big slap on their hand, so bad that they will cry for 23 seconds.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

TLspotting
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by TLspotting »

A1361/19 NOTAMN
Q) EBBU/QSCLT/IV/NBO/E /045/245/5026N00544E064
A) EBBU B) 1904210000 C) 1904210300
E) BRUSSELS ACC SECTORS EAST LOW, EAST HIGH, HULDENBERG AND
LUXEMBOURG
CLSD DUE TO STAFF SHORTAGE. EMERG FREQ ARE WATCHED

A1364/19 NOTAMN
Q) EBBU/QATCH/IV/NBO/AE/000/085/5038N00533E028
A) EBLG B) 1904210000 C) 1904210300
E) LIEGE TMA ONE, THREE, FOUR AND FIVE UPPER LIMIT RAISED TO
FL085. AVBL FOR TFC INBD AND OUBD EBLG ONLY
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

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lumumba
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by lumumba »

today in De standard there is a more nuanced article where it is not clear that employees are right...
And De Standaard is a quality news paper I'm not sure anymore about what Phoenixx is affirming!!!!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

lumumba wrote: 21 Apr 2019, 00:38 today in De standard there is a more nuanced article where it is not clear that employees are right...
And De Standaard is a quality news paper I'm not sure anymore about what Phoenixx is affirming!!!!
Are you referring to the article about the German controllers to 'take care of' the ACC for Liège? Or the other one?
I went through both and had few remarks:

Sr20 clarified earlier already that the Germans don't do anything extra or control any air traffic in Belgian airspace, so that is, again, incorrect.

At the bottom of the article is mentioned that doctors found inconsistencies in the sickness of absent controllers.
I am honestly as surprised as you are as we have no idea who they would be talking about.
Every controller who calls sick (even for one day) receives a checkup doctor. To our knowledge, not a single doctor found any false play / fake sickness / unusual situation.
You can be extremely sure that IF this short notice sick calling was the actual issue and IF they managed to catch a controller doing this and management would have a checkup doctor confirming this and backing them up in this, they would nail him to the cross publicly.
Since we read it first in the press instead of hearing it in the company, we just assume the net around them simply got a bit tighter again and they needed a new diversion.
Claiming no doctor would dare to do so is an easy way out of having no proof to support your statements as well. But my question is; if no doctor would risk calling a controller fake sick, how they could ever find proof of inconsistencies in the sick reporting of Atcos? Nice same day contradicting statements again, in the same newspaper nontheless.
And most of all, where is the proof? Where are the consequences?

I mentioned already that there is only a very small minority of the abscences being called in 'short notice', this is not 5 minutes before the shift but still hours. These are not unusually high numbers or even higher numbers than usual either.
All other sickness are mid or long term and management and planning are aware of these weeks or months in advance.
There is simply no spare staffing and no more will to replace them.
You could call it a strike, actions or protest that people no longer take extra shifts on top of an overloaded roster. We don't see it like this and objectively that would be a very difficult point to make.
I stand by this statement 100 percent.

The spokesperson refers to every person who is not working on a specific day as a 'replacement that is refusing to come to work' who is a cause for the staffing issue. As you can read a bit further their anonymous well placed source confirms there is no standby for the night shift, so who else would these replacements be?

Regarding this "well placed insider", I can only assume he or she is not an air traffic controller judging from the way we get talked about again. 'Atcos are spoiled brats.' One of the ten commands of the eternal management attempt to turn everybody against us.
This source is also wrong regarding the planning of the nightshifts, except for month of March, this still happens voluntarily via a nightshiftlist filled out by controllers.
Funny how they don't even list a unit, rank, function, ... Nada
He or she is well placed but again not very balanced in their statements.

You don't have to believe me, time will tell.
However, please do keep an eye out for inconsistencies in their statements and logic, they do frequently turn the tables as it pleases them to play the innocent party, but it is getting harder and harder to not contradict the statement they made (or minister Bellot in this case, with information received by the company) the day before.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sean1982 »

Phoenixx wrote: 21 Apr 2019, 02:58
At the bottom of the article is mentioned that doctors found inconsistencies in the sickness of absent controllers.
I am honestly as surprised as you are as we have no idea who they would be talking about.
Every controller who calls sick (even for one day) receives a checkup doctor. To our knowledge, not a single doctor found any false play / fake sickness / unusual situation.
You can be extremely sure that IF this short notice sick calling was the actual issue and IF they managed to catch a controller doing this and management would have a checkup doctor confirming this and backing them up in this, they would nail him to the cross publicly.
Since we read it first in the press instead of hearing it in the company, we just assume the net around them simply got a bit tighter again and they needed a new diversion.
Claiming no doctor would dare to do so is an easy way out of having no proof to support your statements as well. But my question is; if no doctor would risk calling a controller fake sick, how they could ever find proof of inconsistencies in the sick reporting of Atcos? Nice same day contradicting statements again, in the same newspaper nontheless.
And most of all, where is the proof? Where are the consequences?
I can call a doctor tomorrow and say I had diarrhea all night and he can't contest that either. Some "diseases" arent traceable anymore after they are "gone"
Phoenixx wrote: 21 Apr 2019, 02:58
You could call it a strike, actions or protest that people no longer take extra shifts on top of an overloaded roster. We don't see it like this and objectively that would be a very difficult point to make.
I stand by this statement 100 percent.
Maybe you don't as it is in your favor. For others the objective point to make there is such a thing as job pride and secondly as you shut down an entire countries airspace making it look like a banana republic, such a thing as embarrasment that should kick in after a while?

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

sean1982 wrote: 21 Apr 2019, 18:44 I can call a doctor tomorrow and say I had diarrhea all night and he can't contest that either. Some "diseases" arent traceable anymore after they are "gone"
...
Maybe you don't as it is in your favor. For others the objective point to make there is such a thing as job pride and secondly as you shut down an entire countries airspace making it look like a banana republic, such a thing as embarrasment that should kick in after a while?
True, and a bad headache or stomach ache can not be proven of traced either.
You honestly believe a controller or pilot has to be knockout in bed with a 40° fever before it becomes irresponsible for them to work?
You have to be fit to work in general, but in a safety sensitive environment like aviation this is also a matter of acting responsible and being honest. And (just as an example, please don't attack me on this) sometimes that also means calling in sick because you slept very poorly and are not focussed at all. Better than having the full originally planned staff with a few incidents or worse.
I can tell you from experience that in general Atcos don't call sick in case of a cold, a bit of headache or a less than optimal nights sleep, we're not princesses. But we do act responsible and not feeling fit enough to work means calling unfit to work.
Here's another fun fact; Atcos score better than the average Belgocontrol employee on number of sick days and the numbers have not risen recently. Every call they get of sickness is simply a call too much though lately for their staffing, so they enlarge it and smear it out in the press as if there is an epidemic.

Your objective point is making more sacrifice for the greater good? Where is the limit? 1 day off per month is enough?
Dangerous logic, sacrificing for the greater good. And while it might be a noble logic, it's not a very good concrete tool to use constantly.
Job pride is about how we work, not how much. Quality over quantity. I don't want to take responsibility for my colleagues' work and I have read some complaints already regarding quality but I can l say I always try to provide a good service, safe and efficiënt.
I can't say I would feel more proud working 28 days per month instead of the current 25.
I can say this because I'm only supposed to work 21-22 (like normal People, 5/7 days) and I feel no additional pride in working these extra 3-4 days monthly already.
Again in that logic, where is the limit? Ultimate pride in working double shifts? 30 out of 31 days? 31/31?

I get your frustration, but you haven't wondered why a politically assigned CEO doesnt take action to prevent or change this banana republic image? Or how he let it get to this point in the first place? How no politician is taking action?
We are not closing the Belgian airspace. We don't gain from this.
It's easy for us to blame everything on him and even more easy for him to blame all this on us.
But as long as we are doing 3-4 extra shifts monthly, have no option to take our vacation days or parental leaves, and see our rights ignored and our rules and laws violated while absolutely nothing comes out of the negotiations and they (management) make sure we are still bashed on daily basis in the press, no we won't feel embarassed any time soon.

BRU
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by BRU »

Phoenix, a few questions:
- what is the abscence rate of atcos due to ilness in %?
- if we understand you correctly, this is going on since many years. But at the same time a lot is being done to hire additional staff, but training takes time. So why suddenly these actions at a time where you would think you are going to a solution? There must be something else that plays in this?

Trying to understand, because hearing all sides, there is no logic in this and thus wondering the real agenda that plays...

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

BRU wrote: 21 Apr 2019, 23:34 Phoenix, a few questions:
- what is the abscence rate of atcos due to ilness in %?
- if we understand you correctly, this is going on since many years. But at the same time a lot is being done to hire additional staff, but training takes time. So why suddenly these actions at a time where you would think you are going to a solution? There must be something else that plays in this?

Trying to understand, because hearing all sides, there is no logic in this and thus wondering the real agenda that plays...
I can try to give an answer, at least to your second question because I have no figures about illness percentage.

Critical staff shortage started about 5 years ago. It first appeared in control towers (mainly Liège, Charleroi and then Brussels) Don't you remember closures at certain times, or flight schools complaining because beeing "grounded" in Charleroi ? Effect in CANAC was less critical (although already low on staff) but thanks to atco's flexibility (overtime hours), there was nos major issues on traffic.
Then started the massive recruitment campaign from Belgocontrol, feeding progressively people into towers (from recruitment start till atco's qualification, it takes about 3 years !) Today, staff level in towers is nearly back to normal (except for Liège, where support is still needed from CANAC atco's)

But in the meantime, staff level in CANAC kept going lower and lower due to retirements, atco's leaving for other ANSP's, quitting the job or taken to non operational tasks ! And as staff level was not sufficient at that time in control towers, impossible to send some tower atco's to training to strengthen the CANAC staff. Then management tried to hire already licenced foreign atco's to accelerate the feeding, but it was not really a succes !
Situation in CANAC is now the situation towers faced 4 or 5 years ago. Not enough people, exhausted atco's after years of efforts and flexibility, leading to an abnormal level of long term sick leaves and burnouts. And the remaining atco's still available are not as flexible as a few years ago : when they have the chance to have 1 or 2 days off after a series of 10,11 or 12 working days, they prefer to stay home, enjoying family moments rather than taking a missing service over ! A human reaction after so many years of efforts, don't you think so ? They are human people and not robots or computers !

The first new atco's are now on the job training in Canac (5 or 6 I believe). They should start to be released progressively. But they will barely compensate the atco's wich will be retired very soon !

Phoenix will probably complete my answer ;)

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Boeing767copilot »

Phoenixx and SR20, one more question:

It appears that last week there was a proposal on the table from the social mediator where management agreed to introduce a 32-hour working week instead of the current 35-hour week.

But I heard that the trade unions have rejected this because management only wanted to admit on the condition that a time registration of the exact hours worked would be introduced.

That also happens in most other companies. Why is this not accepted?

Thanks for your answer

Phoenixx
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Joined: 16 Mar 2018, 12:45

Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

SR20 wrote: 22 Apr 2019, 10:03 Phoenix will probably complete my answer ;)
This explanation is perfect and there is only one small addition I would like to make.

Since all 5 the towers had a staff shortage (to a different degree ofcourse), trainees were being sent to all 5 towers simultaneously, and apart from EBLG and EBCI, the issue is solved. (These two are still understaffed, but they are managing thanks to the atcos doing what it takes).
This means that trainees were able to do the on the job training in a parallel manner, minimum 2 at any time per tower, maximum 4 (In Brussels), effectively training 12 people on the job simultaneously per +- 9 months.
Ofcourse the passing rate is not 100%, it's variable between 70-80 percent in total, with a 50-60% in some units, hereby releasing around 8-9 people over 5 units per 9 months.
There is a constant group of people waiting to start their on the job training now as soon as the previous ones stop.
Also in the towers, not many people have retired either since the start of trainings, so the new atcos are an actual plus to the staffing and not replacements.

For canac, we have a different issue:
- Because these are only 3 units, there is a maximum of between 6-9 atcos training simultaneously on the job. The pass rate will probably be around 80 percent too, hereby adding only +- 5-6 Atcos per 9 months (to the 3 units combineert). Due to the increase in traffic in summer, management has decided to take a 3 month break in on the job training from June to Augustus (to avoid new trainees are instantly drowning in work), hereby increasing the length of training to 12 months.
- During these 12 months of training, an equal or greater number will retire from the job due to age than they manage to succesfully train to aps/acc controller. Making these atcos replacements instead of additions to the staffing, not solving the staffshortage at all.
-
- There is no faster way to introduce new air traffic controllers, despite what management might claim. Canac has a lower training capacity than the towers combined.
- This situation is foreseen to continue for 3-5 more years, where the absolute numbers in canac staff will barely increase, despite constant training.
- at the start of these 12 months, there is simulator training. This requires instructors who hold a valid license for the specific unit, thereby taking out of canac and using them for non-ops, decreasing the number of available Atcos.


Regarding the absolute sick numbers, skeyes averaged out on just over 2 days per 3 months, while the Atcos are around 1.5 for these same 3 months. This does not take into consideration any long term illness.
We hope management will publish these numbers soon as they are connected to an internal company goal, but we fear they will not as it conflicts with their stories again.

Phoenixx
Posts: 77
Joined: 16 Mar 2018, 12:45

Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

Boeing767copilot wrote: 22 Apr 2019, 12:24 Phoenixx and SR20, one more question:

It appears that last week there was a proposal on the table from the social mediator where management agreed to introduce a 32-hour working week instead of the current 35-hour week.

But I heard that the trade unions have rejected this because management only wanted to admit on the condition that a time registration of the exact hours worked would be introduced.

That also happens in most other companies. Why is this not accepted?

Thanks for your answer
While the negotiations are strictly classified and the stories that do come out strongly vary with the source, what I have heard is that this 32 hour week was offered as one of more temporary measures for April to create a temporary solution while negotiations are ongoing. This specific offer also included their version of the night shift hours and once again did not solve any issue (32h/week was not sufficient to achieve their required staffing) as it did not limit airspace capacity, simply demanding more from atcos.
This is what I have heard, nobody can confirm or deny this except the ones at the negotiations table.

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