Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 16 Apr 2019, 20:55

Interesting discussions here. Thanks for keeping it civilised and thanks for the load of information that you provide about ATC.

I do have some questions:

1. When Reagan fired all the civilian atcos and replaced them with military ones, the civil aviation of the US did not collapse. How then is it impossible to move an atco from Ostend to Brussels without extensive training?

2. When you claim that you try to distribute evenly the inconveniences between airlines and airports, how come that Liege is systematically the major victim of airspace closures?

3. Only recently did the staffing problems arise, notwithstanding that recruitment has been extensive the last few years. Previously there seldom seemed to be problems. In fact, the transition point seemed to be the replacement of Tintin by Decuyper. Any political issue there?

Thanks in anticipation for any replies.
André
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 16 Apr 2019, 21:01

By the way, I looked at the CV of Johan Decuyper on LinkedIn. Interesting and atypical.

Education: civil engineer with a master in information technology
Career: IBM France, cabinet of Minister Chabert, return to IBM in Belgium, head of statistics at the National Bank, head of cabinet of Secretary of State Bogaert, and finally CEO of Belgocontrol/skeyes.

Not sure what qualifies him best to be CEO of skeyes (maybe his political affiliation in a job where only competence should prevail), but the background seems sufficient.
André
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Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 16 Apr 2019, 21:49

convair wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 20:47
@Phoenixx
Thanks for your reply.
Regarding the fake sick leaves, I'm certainly not saying they're all fake. However, the existence of some fake sick leaves was mentioned and almost officially confirmed by a union member, if I'm not mistaken
What I believe you are referring to is the ingenious standby system we have.
So in short:
-A standby shift is only regarded as working time the moment it gets activated. (Another trick to push more shifts in the roster...)
-when a controller calls sick for a standby day (before he is activated for this standby), he does not receive a standby fee, a sick day or any compensation whatsoever. This day is suddenly regarded as an off day (like a regular saturday for normal people).

So what happened is that pretty much all standby shifts were activated (due to staff shortage) but some controllers said they had enough of that so they called their standby sick.
They had technically every right, because this was done before their window of activation, so it was not working time yet.
As they do not receive any financial compensation (standby fee) or a sick day for this and it was changed in an 'off day' in our rostering program, you would think there is no problem.

Management saw the flaw in their own logic (that they implemented to avoid paying fees or sick days), so they decided to send a checkup doctor to these Atcos house.

Now, once again there is a clear use of the best of both worlds (for them) here ... It is either a sick day or not.
If it is not, sending a checkup doctor is not legal and they have no right to enter or check anything, or to even write a report.

And again this was communicated to the outside world as controllers calling fake sick and yada yada. When they noticed the public does not approve of this, they continued to suggest and hint that this is happening frequently and that all sick controllers are actually not sick but on a secret strike. Leyes.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 16 Apr 2019, 22:18

sn26567 wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 20:55
Interesting discussions here. Thanks for keeping it civilised and thanks for the load of information that you provide about ATC.

I do have some questions:

1. When Reagan fired all the civilian atcos and replaced them with military ones, the civil aviation of the US did not collapse. How then is it impossible to move an atco from Ostend to Brussels without extensive training?

2. When you claim that you try to distribute evenly the inconveniences between airlines and airports, how come that Liege is systematically the major victim of airspace closures?

3. Only recently did the staffing problems arise, notwithstanding that recruitment has been extensive the last few years. Previously there seldom seemed to be problems. In fact, the transition point seemed to be the replacement of Tintin by Decuyper. Any political issue there?

Thanks in anticipation for any replies.
To give some input on your different questions :

1. ATCO'S in towers hold an APS rating while those in ACC hold an ACS rating. You can only work if you hold an appropriate rating + local endorsement. To give you an example, the french ATCO'S working now in CRL and LGG had to follow a transitional course + On Job Training that took about 7-8 months before beeing operational ! And we're here talking about already licenced controllers !
Reagan's time is over ! In more than 30 years things have changed and the appearance of ATC licences don't make things easier !

2. There is a staffing issue by day as well. Restrictions are implemented nearly every day in Brussels sectors. But the impact of 2 or 3 missing controllers is smaller by day with a normal team of 25 to 30 ATCO'S than it is by night with a team of 5 to 8 ATCO'S ! Airspace closure (decided by management) is unfortunately usually the only solution ! Nothing against Liege Airport, just not lucky to have most of his traffic at night.

3. Recruitment has indeed been extensive in the last few years. But so far only towers have been up-staffed ! CANAC hasn't seen many new ATCO'S so far ! Actually the problem CANAC is facing is the problem towers (mainly CRL and LGG) used to face 4 or 5 years ago. Don't you remember closures at LGG and CRL a few years ago, just before terrorist attacks in BRU ? 5 ATCO'S from CANAC were even sent back to LGG to help local staff, after having followed an appropriate training.
I don't think it has something to do with Tintin or De Cuyper, but they have something in common : both underestimated (or neglected) the urgent need of ATCO'S recruitment ! And the retirements expected in the next few years, mainly in CANAC, won't help solving the problem.
Last edited by SR20 on 16 Apr 2019, 22:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 16 Apr 2019, 22:30

sn26567 wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 20:55
1. When Reagan fired all the civilian atcos and replaced them with military ones, the civil aviation of the US did not collapse. How then is it impossible to move an atco from Ostend to Brussels without extensive training?

2. When you claim that you try to distribute evenly the inconveniences between airlines and airports, how come that Liege is systematically the major victim of airspace closures?

3. Only recently did the staffing problems arise, notwithstanding that recruitment has been extensive the last few years. Previously there seldom seemed to be problems. In fact, the transition point seemed to be the replacement of Tintin by Decuyper. Any political issue there?
- to answer the Reagan issue, times have changed a lot since then. A licensed controller that wants to change Tower now has loas and airspace lessons to go through (and the belgian airspace is Tiny, but complex), simulator training and on the job training.
Militairy controllers work with a different set of rules compared to us. Plus everybody did a great effort then to avoid the system from collapsing. We are already shortstaffed (and keeping the system going at a rate above our staffing) so although it will not require 1000 controllers to jump in, the effect would be great nontheless. Add to that any new controller takes +1.5 years to train and you can only train so many per year on the job, and yes. You have a long term serious disrurbance of the air traffic.
Not to mention government workers are allowed to strike and we are not doing anything considered illegal...

- i have never claimed this. During the nights:
If an ACC West controller calls sick, then ostend is affected. (But that is very limited in traffic numbers)
If it's east, then Liège Will have trouble as they are in the Middle of it.
Only if it's both, Brussels has a serious problem, because there is always an option to reroute via the other one (and we do this gladly, these are not strikes)

- That is only based on appearances.
Recruiting and training stopped under Tintin to save money.
There were multiple warnings of the direction that would evolve in. When Decuyper took over, he disregarded further warnings for the first 2 years. At this point, we were around 5 years since the last new Atcos were released already. People still fall medically unfit, or retire, so numbers continued going down. Working hours were steadily rising, but the protest was limited.
Honestly, we are always portrayed as spoiled and complaining about everything, but we were not agreeing in silence.
Then the idea was to slowly start training again, but there was no plan. (Staff plan with forecasts and predictions of staff and training needs VS operational needs and evolutions)
And then suddenly the message arrived and they started the Massive recruitements, well knowing it would not solve the problems they were facing in the next 7 years.

And to react to your second post.
Mr Decuyper is a clever man, I am sure he would be a good CEO in the private sector. But this is a public company where bureaucracy, laws and civil servants are a thing.
To make operational changes you need safety studies, and you need to think long ahead and be patient.
And I find him to be a very bad combination with these.
He breaks a rule, to then give it back in a negotiations as if he's reaching out by doing so. This is not meeting in the middle and does not work on our rules who are all fixed in laws, KBs, MBs, statutes, ...

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Boeing767copilot » 17 Apr 2019, 08:51

Please, give me one government or private company where some of the staff oppose always the decisions of his management and/or his CEO?
Times change, every change requires an adjustment. Why does that not apply to the ATCO's?
The problems at Belgocontrol/skeyes have been dragging on for many years.
The staff or part of them is never satisfied. The other companies and employees at the airport get tired of this. It has purely become a power game between the management on the one hand and De Gilde/Unions on the other.
Why? Why?
Take a positive attitude from now on. The customer and the traveler will be eternally grateful to you.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 17 Apr 2019, 08:57

Hi Phoenixx,

Reading your posts and others is very interesting.

We could indeed discuss hours and blame controllers and/or management but in your analysis I think your are forgetting some important things.


- You compare your salaries with pilots but from what you answered don’t want their conditions. Yours are better (rostering flexibility - family life as you said): that is worth a lot! Maybe worth anything for some people to be able to be at home almost when they want. And if you don’t get what you have requested on the roster, you can swap freely with colleagues like you said! You need to be free tomorrow? Call a colleague and swap! No need to ask your boss, no need to think about work that has to be done! That’s amazing, isn’t it? No other job has that!
That flexibility is a mess for the management! Pick up a night and swap with colleagues so that 3 or 4 people who agree to strike (or call sick) are on the roster and Belgium is closed! Management has nothing to say!
Conditions and job security are also worth a lot! Ask pilots! You can never be fired as State employees. Never, whatever you do! You can be on your phone while working and have a loss of separation: they won’t be allowed to fire you! (Would that be a true story?)

Then you compare your salary with Atcos from neighboring countries: what are you comparing Brussels with? With Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt or London? Seriously? Other countries have different salary scales according to the airport where you work and how busy it is. If you follow their scales, expect a huge decrease in your salary :) It’s not easy to hear but Brussels is a small airport!

- I have already mentioned it in a previous post but you say you are missing 30 to 40 controllers and that management didn’t do anything over the last few years. True and they have their responsibility but so have the controllers! There are plenty of shifts that could be suppressed without impairing safety and without making controllers work much more.
Examples:
1) for Brussels 3 approach and 3 tower controllers for very little traffic between midnight and 06.00am. Why not do the vectoring from the tower? You would win 6 shifts per day!
2) Charleroi: 2 Atcos working each night for an airport which is CLOSED!
3) Oostende: 2 Atcos working each night for 2 planes (on a good night). One should be well enough!
But controllers have always refused to touch those shifts! Refused to work alone even with no traffic That’s already around 9 shifts per day without any effort.
To cover one shift daily 365 days per years you need two Atcos: here are 18 Atcos available (and there could be man more!) that are going to solve half of your personal shortage!
Of course controllers should have accepted to do this a few years ago so that these free Atcos could be ACC qualifies by now... Because now it’s too late! They are not trained. Because of who?
A few years ago: isn’t it when you warned your management that they were gonna be in trouble? ;)
You were the trouble, or at least part of it!

- Last but not least: management comes up with a solution (not the best but at least something): train new Atcos straight to ACC to win (a lot) of time. But controllers refuse it because they want to keep their seniority! In which world are we? We are talking about thousands of people stranded because of such considerations: seniority!

I suggest controllers and management put their proudness on the side and find a way to be forgiven by the public and the different companies which have lost more than enough: the first step is to make sure that the service is not interrupted;
It is time for solutions! Not like pilots because you don't want, not like neighboring countries, because you are not at their level, so how? With conditions like nobody else has? No, this game has to stop. You are State employees, we pay your salaries so we deserve a service given by people who have normal working conditions. And if you still don't agree, then find another job and see what working means.

@Boeing767copilot: 100% agree with you!

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by lumumba » 17 Apr 2019, 09:22

Hey mvg.
I think you are missing the point here it looks complex and I'm sure that if they had the choice to avoid striking(last month's) they wouldn't do it people go on strike when there is no other solutions anymore!
I mean Phoenixx clarified a lot,you can discuss details but for me it's clear.
Phoenixx took his time to explain the details has much has possible I appreciate that.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by lumumba » 17 Apr 2019, 09:27

Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 08:51
Please, give me one government or private company where some of the staff oppose always the decisions of his management and/or his CEO?
Times change, every change requires an adjustment. Why does that not apply to the ATCO's?
The problems at Belgocontrol/skeyes have been dragging on for many years.
The staff or part of them is never satisfied. The other companies and employees at the airport get tired of this. It has purely become a power game between the management on the one hand and De Gilde/Unions on the other.
Why? Why?
Take a positive attitude from now on. The customer and the traveler will be eternally grateful to you.
This has nothing to do to be positive I'm sure they love what there are doing like mostly in aviation.

I don't understand when people go on strike in this forum the management is never blamed!!!!!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

atcofl
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by atcofl » 17 Apr 2019, 10:20

mvg wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 08:57
- You compare your salaries with pilots but from what you answered don’t want their conditions. Yours are better (rostering flexibility - family life as you said): that is worth a lot! Maybe worth anything for some people to be able to be at home almost when they want. And if you don’t get what you have requested on the roster, you can swap freely with colleagues like you said! You need to be free tomorrow? Call a colleague and swap! No need to ask your boss, no need to think about work that has to be done! That’s amazing, isn’t it? No other job has that!
That flexibility is a mess for the management! Pick up a night and swap with colleagues so that 3 or 4 people who agree to strike (or call sick) are on the roster and Belgium is closed! Management has nothing to say!
You have been constantly attacking our right to swap shifts, which frankly quite a weird stance to take. First of all, the ability to swap shifts is standard among basically every industry where people work shifts. I know nurses, people in call centres and people who manage the desk at a pool, all working shifts, and they can all freely swap any shifts they want. I cannot imagine it's different in most aviation branches. If management has planned 5 atco's to be present for a certain time to open the necessary positions, it doesn't matter who those people are; as long as the positions are open.
Your suggestion that people swap shifts just to strike is both ridiculous and irrelevant. During the last strike, where several, but not all, people in the same unit would strike at the same time, it was never a problem to find enough people to strike. As far as I know, no shift swaps happened to make it possible. That should be no surprise, since at least 85% of atco's supported the actions.

The new grid proposed would take away all flexibility in the system, without adding any advantage to controllers or even the company. You know what's it called when you take something away from people just to spite them? Bullying!

Furthermore, you keep attacking any benefits we have, saying we should give it all up; but at the same time saying that it's fair that we earn less than pilots and atco's in neighbouring countries because of all the benefits. Perhaps you should choose which stance to defend, except if you believe that low-paid, ultra-flexible acto's without a family life are the future of Belgian aviation.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 17 Apr 2019, 11:02

Hi atcofi,

I am not attacking your swaps. Only saying that you have a package with a salary and other advantages. When you compare you have to compare your package with what others have.
Your classical comparison is your salary compared to those abroad for the same job but you never mention that in other countries:
- they work with grids (you don’t want) -> nights do NOT count for two days
- swaps are very restricted (you want flexibility)
- they have much more traffic than Brussels (those mentioned at least)
- they are not State employees (with all it means)


For the rest let’s keep to the facts... When will you agree that vectoring planes from tower at night saves 6 full time per day, that towers are overmanned in airports which are closed (or with almost no traffic)? We can also talk about the need for ACC supervisors and APP supervisors sitting almost next to each other: is it really necessary to have two supervisors? Another 2 shifts per day possibly saved so 4 Atcos free to fill in the gaps!
These are facts... not an agression...

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 Apr 2019, 12:50

Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 08:51
Please, give me one government or private company where some of the staff oppose always the decisions of his management and/or his CEO?
Times change, every change requires an adjustment. Why does that not apply to the ATCO's?
The problems at Belgocontrol/skeyes have been dragging on for many years.
The staff or part of them is never satisfied. The other companies and employees at the airport get tired of this. It has purely become a power game between the management on the one hand and De Gilde/Unions on the other.
Why? Why?
Take a positive attitude from now on. The customer and the traveler will be eternally grateful to you.
You have been reading too much newswebsites and you just blindly take over the points of some "aviation specialists" that are close friends with our CEO. Be careful with throwing opinions up and trying to pass them as facts.

We don't 'always' oppose, be realistic.
Lots of things go wrong, happen in the wrong way or for the wrong reasons. And then yes we oppose. Because there are rules, procedures, laws, ... to follow. Peoples rights to respect. For everybody. Including the management.

Is it a custom in these other companies that rules and laws are constantly violated and decisions get made entirely from one side completely disregarding the potential drastic impact they have on the personal lives of your employees, their working circumstances, the safety your Company is supposed to provide, ...
And if you don't like it, you can sue him. No discussion. His way or the highway. And if you sue him, you get verbally threatened nu one of his managers that your carreer is over.
Do you seriously expect us to roll over and play dead because he is a stubborn man that has a goal?

We will see what comes out of these negotiations that are ongoing. Maybe then you will see there is no dialogue with this man possible.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 Apr 2019, 13:28

mvg wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 08:57
Hi Phoenixx,

Reading your posts and others is very interesting.

We could indeed discuss hours and blame controllers and/or management but in your analysis I think your are forgetting some important things.


- You compare your salaries with pilots but from what you answered don’t want their conditions. Yours are better (rostering flexibility - family life as you said): that is worth a lot! Maybe worth anything for some people to be able to be at home almost when they want. And if you don’t get what you have requested on the roster, you can swap freely with colleagues like you said! You need to be free tomorrow? Call a colleague and swap! No need to ask your boss, no need to think about work that has to be done! That’s amazing, isn’t it? No other job has that!
That flexibility is a mess for the management! Pick up a night and swap with colleagues so that 3 or 4 people who agree to strike (or call sick) are on the roster and Belgium is closed! Management has nothing to say!
Conditions and job security are also worth a lot! Ask pilots! You can never be fired as State employees. Never, whatever you do! You can be on your phone while working and have a loss of separation: they won’t be allowed to fire you! (Would that be a true story?)

Then you compare your salary with Atcos from neighboring countries: what are you comparing Brussels with? With Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt or London? Seriously? Other countries have different salary scales according to the airport where you work and how busy it is. If you follow their scales, expect a huge decrease in your salary :) It’s not easy to hear but Brussels is a small airport!

- I have already mentioned it in a previous post but you say you are missing 30 to 40 controllers and that management didn’t do anything over the last few years. True and they have their responsibility but so have the controllers! There are plenty of shifts that could be suppressed without impairing safety and without making controllers work much more.
Examples:
1) for Brussels 3 approach and 3 tower controllers for very little traffic between midnight and 06.00am. Why not do the vectoring from the tower? You would win 6 shifts per day!
2) Charleroi: 2 Atcos working each night for an airport which is CLOSED!
3) Oostende: 2 Atcos working each night for 2 planes (on a good night). One should be well enough!
But controllers have always refused to touch those shifts! Refused to work alone even with no traffic That’s already around 9 shifts per day without any effort.
To cover one shift daily 365 days per years you need two Atcos: here are 18 Atcos available (and there could be man more!) that are going to solve half of your personal shortage!
Of course controllers should have accepted to do this a few years ago so that these free Atcos could be ACC qualifies by now... Because now it’s too late! They are not trained. Because of who?
A few years ago: isn’t it when you warned your management that they were gonna be in trouble? ;)
You were the trouble, or at least part of it!

- Last but not least: management comes up with a solution (not the best but at least something): train new Atcos straight to ACC to win (a lot) of time. But controllers refuse it because they want to keep their seniority! In which world are we? We are talking about thousands of people stranded because of such considerations: seniority!

I suggest controllers and management put their proudness on the side and find a way to be forgiven by the public and the different companies which have lost more than enough: the first step is to make sure that the service is not interrupted;
It is time for solutions! Not like pilots because you don't want, not like neighboring countries, because you are not at their level, so how? With conditions like nobody else has? No, this game has to stop. You are State employees, we pay your salaries so we deserve a service given by people who have normal working conditions. And if you still don't agree, then find another job and see what working means.

@Boeing767copilot: 100% agree with you!
Not to be rude, but I think we have a different definition of important.
I tried to point out our salaries are high, yes we know that.
But a high salary never justifies violations of rules and laws.
Our rostering system is the only thing sustaining a lot of problems at the moment, changing that would make things a lot worse.
Both the grid system and the "direct entries" to ACC can not solve the problem at hand, this has been simulated and for a grid you need more staff while the direct entries have no short term effect whatsoever.
I could give you another 30 line explanation about this, but I wont. (If you want, I could pm)
Management is pretending we are preventing these issues to be solved, I can say that we are not.

A few instant thoughts with your solutions:
1: This would require serious training for all EBBR Tower controllers which means postponing the training of new aps controllers even further, you're talking about years here.
Aps does not only provide the approach for Brussels Airport, it's not as easy as you're making it seem here.
Our equipment in the Tower is not suitable for this, Ould require serious investment.

2. Single person ops are not allowed. Anywhere. Do I really have to refer to incidents and accidents because of this in the past?
Charleroi is not short staffed in a way where air traffic has delays, so you're not really solving any issue with this.

3. See Point 2. Also, these solutions were never brought up or considered. If you had time and money to retrain controllers, there were resources to train new atcos. Here lies the problem, no training means everybody and everything stays where they are and as it is. We are operational, we do not make policy or decide how to solve issues. We offered advice and insight, management was never intrested. So when after 6 years, your predictions come true and they are fully visible, you will not be very inclined to do another huge effort to help in alternate and bad temporary "solutions" that don't solve anything.

Regarding the direct entries and grid, feel free to pm me for more explanation, but like I said: these were not solutions anymore when proposed by management.

We have tried to do this repeatedly. To be the better man, to say "ok, we are here now, let's solve this. What's wrong and how can we fix it?" But it's like talking to a wall.
Management claims there are no staffing issues as this would be admitting their mistakes, management claims they do everything right and we will see in court.
But untill a judge rules his verdict, they refuse to discuss anything on the topic. They are literally blocking any progress in the social dialogue with their attitude.
Like I said to 767copilot, the 2 mediators are at work now, and I honestly hope they manage to move this in the right direction.
But you need the will to do so in all parties Involved.
We have offered solutions, but the CEO does not want to hear them as they might affect his numbers.

And just to be clear: the taxpayer does not pay my salary.
The amount of government money going into the company is lower than the profit the company makes (which is re-invested), so please refrain from these ignorant statements if you wish to have a decent discussion.

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 17 Apr 2019, 13:48

Hi Phoenixx,

Thanks again for the long answer. I think we will leave it here about the solutions. You are right that they should have been implemented a long time ago. But it has been obvious for years that vectoring could have been done from the tower. It was in front of everyone’s eyes but the Atcos didn’t want to hear it. As far as training is concerned you are a APS qualified controller which means that giving vectors is part of your assessed skills. Use one runway in Brussels, Antwerp and Charleroi are closed: nothing difficult and I hope you don’t need much training to vector on a runway which know by heart (even if you don’t give the vectors). Anyway like you said: it’s too late and only mentioned to show that controllers could have accepted or proposed solutions, even if it would mean less nights shifts for some of you.
About the equipment: one more screen (radar) is not a big deal... You have got so many screens already :)

Working alone is allowed if you prove that it is safe by a safety case. For Charleroi, with an airport closed, why would it not be?

One thing about which I totally disagree with you is that the tax payer does pay (at least part of) your salary. Of course Skeyes is auto-financed by its own income now but it has not always been like that! Remember the last 20 millions of euros “borrowed” by the government not so long ago? And before that (you were probably already working), the government had to put money each year to keep the company into the green. Who do you think paid for all your beautiful buildings, equipments, radar antennas, the training of all those still working there? A lot of money came from the old RLW/RVA which was the State!
Now the company is not in the red anymore but there was a lot invested into it by the State. And if it happens again that the budget isn’t ok, the government will again put money in to save it.

But we agree on one thing: your CEO is very stubborn and the dialogue is impossible. So all I’ll say is good luck!

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Boeing767copilot » 17 Apr 2019, 14:33

Phoenixx wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 12:50
Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 08:51
Please, give me one government or private company where some of the staff oppose always the decisions of his management and/or his CEO?
Times change, every change requires an adjustment. Why does that not apply to the ATCO's?
The problems at Belgocontrol/skeyes have been dragging on for many years.
The staff or part of them is never satisfied. The other companies and employees at the airport get tired of this. It has purely become a power game between the management on the one hand and De Gilde/Unions on the other.
Why? Why?
Take a positive attitude from now on. The customer and the traveler will be eternally grateful to you.
You have been reading too much newswebsites and you just blindly take over the points of some "aviation specialists" that are close friends with our CEO. Be careful with throwing opinions up and trying to pass them as facts.

We don't 'always' oppose, be realistic.
Lots of things go wrong, happen in the wrong way or for the wrong reasons. And then yes we oppose. Because there are rules, procedures, laws, ... to follow. Peoples rights to respect. For everybody. Including the management.

Is it a custom in these other companies that rules and laws are constantly violated and decisions get made entirely from one side completely disregarding the potential drastic impact they have on the personal lives of your employees, their working circumstances, the safety your Company is supposed to provide, ...
And if you don't like it, you can sue him. No discussion. His way or the highway. And if you sue him, you get verbally threatened nu one of his managers that your carreer is over.
Do you seriously expect us to roll over and play dead because he is a stubborn man that has a goal?

We will see what comes out of these negotiations that are ongoing. Maybe then you will see there is no dialogue with this man possible.
Dear Phoenixx. Thanks for the explanation. But I don't need aviation specialists to have my own opinion. A modern company needs employees who contribute to the plans of their management. If it later turns out that those plans are not good, you can address them to that. But at least give the future of your company a chance. We all can really miss this type of negative coverage the last days.

https://trends.levif.be/economie/entrep ... 23521.html

https://www.lecho.be/entreprises/aviati ... 17839.html

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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 17 Apr 2019, 17:02

Not taking sides, just informing:
André
ex Sabena #26567


Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 17 Apr 2019, 21:27

Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 Apr 2019, 14:33
Dear Phoenixx. Thanks for the explanation. But I don't need aviation specialists to have my own opinion. A modern company needs employees who contribute to the plans of their management. If it later turns out that those plans are not good, you can address them to that. But at least give the future of your company a chance. We all can really miss this type of negative coverage the last days.

https://trends.levif.be/economie/entrep ... 23521.html

https://www.lecho.be/entreprises/aviati ... 17839.html
Im not saying you need them, but I recognize a lot of things you say in articles and tweets by De Wilde, which is a very one sided approach/ opinion.
I hear what you are saying and I agree with your core message.
To be clear, we do not enjoy being bashed daily in press and in the sector either and we definitely don't Profit from or want everything that's happening now.
But tell me: what do we have to make of a CEO not caring/listening/agreeing to an offered temporary solution where the airspace and all sectors are open 24/7, because we are the ones who proposed it and it might affect his numbers a bit in peak traffic?
We have been listening for 5 years without being listened to and any measure or plan that passed was not up for discussion anymore once implemented, no matter how bad it was or how many complaints they received.. He sticks to what he wants at all costs. Why would we have to bend again? Honestly, this kind of employer-employee relationship is so toxic nothing good or constructive can come out anymore.
People are on edge from the past 5 years, so asking to "do a little more effort" or to "be a bit more flexible" when they face the same -and worse- for 5 more years is irrational and simply not realistic.

Let me put it very simplistic:
How many times would you give your ex another chance if she says she changed and she wants to be together again?
There is a limit to that, and most atcos have passed that point a while ago already. The trust is completely gone and there is no reason to assume this time Will be any different.
Except we are stuck with this ex and she is not admitting to any mistakes and therefore not changing anything this time around.

Every unit has a certain maximum capacity at any given time either way. You can't land 200 aircraft per hour in Brussels, same way you cant let 500 aircraft pass in an acc sector. But instead of aiming at your absolute maximumcapacity:
Spread your staffing in respect of the law and rules, limit your capacity accordingly to keep everything safe and workable (and i am not talking about 10/hour here.. simply a realistic number), make a realistic mid and long term plan to increase both again simultaneously and balanced and communicate all this to your airspace users, Involved parties and the public.
This fairly logical and simple solution would solve all closures (!) at night and it would nearly eliminate flow measures due to staffing. In current peak hours there would be some flow due to this, but this is quite easily solved in cooperation with the airlines.
It would give all parties the breathing space to calm down, work together constructively and look at the future together.
Is he intrested? No.
Last edited by Phoenixx on 18 Apr 2019, 04:50, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by TLspotting » 17 Apr 2019, 21:32

No active NOTAM for the following night.
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by 737MAX » 18 Apr 2019, 01:51

Thank you Phoenixx for your valuable input on this matter.
If that is still not eye opening for those who choose to hate/bash/criticize without knowing, then I'm afraid there is not much to do for their case...

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