Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

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simnam
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by simnam » 19 Mar 2019, 10:11

Desert Rat wrote:
19 Mar 2019, 09:43
Bracebrace wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 10:23
Either the failure effect of a single failure is minor or major, and there is no initial risk for pax or pilots.
Either the failure effect of a single failure is hazardous or catastrophic and, there is a risk for pax or pilots. In the latter case the aircraft is not airworthy.

That makes the 737 max by definition, by rules and regulations, not airworthy. We have two crashes.

If in the future the failure effect is to be covered by software changes or hardware changes has nothing to do with the discussion. Boeing changes whatever they want (soft- or hardware) to get to the result: single failure leading to minor or major failure effects.

The internet discussions have nothing to do with these basic rules.
It is not only about a failure or a wrong information computed by envelope protection computer, it is also linked to a typical flight phase,attitude,thrust setting,etc...
It is a combination of multiple factors, not only minor or major single failure.
Meaning the fix is more complicated, as it will have to take into consideration for solution validation, many different scenarii.
Bracebrace is just clarifying a Certification requirement
CS25.1309
(b) The aeroplane systems and associated components, considered separately and in relation to other systems, must be designed so that -
(1) Any catastrophic failure condition
(i) is extremely improbable; and
(ii) does not result from a single failure; and
(2) Any hazardous failure condition is extremely remote; and
(3) Any major failure condition is remote.


So whatever the change Boeing introduce, a single failure cannot lead to a catastrophic event (which means hull loss and/or multiple fatalities).

Themax
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Themax » 19 Mar 2019, 12:17

simnam wrote:
19 Mar 2019, 10:11
Bracebrace is just clarifying a Certification requirement

So whatever the change Boeing introduce, a single failure cannot lead to a catastrophic event (which means hull loss and/or multiple fatalities).
Yes, in that case the MCAS does not lead to a hazardous or catastrophic situation I believe. That's like saying if your autobrake fails it will have catastrophic consequences... No, you still have a way to take manual control (manual braking) and continue safe operations. The elevators flying off or the stab trim screw braking in half, that would be catastrophic !

Bracebrace
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace » 19 Mar 2019, 15:08

Themax wrote:
19 Mar 2019, 12:17
Yes, in that case the MCAS does not lead to a hazardous or catastrophic situation I believe. That's like saying if your autobrake fails it will have catastrophic consequences... No, you still have a way to take manual control (manual braking) and continue safe operations. The elevators flying off or the stab trim screw braking in half, that would be catastrophic !
So how do you know upon activation of the system, nobody got hurt in the back?

We carry passengers. We carry a crew that runs around pushing/pulling trolleys and they do that when the failure occurs, not when you do your checklist.

simnam
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by simnam » 19 Mar 2019, 16:43

Themax wrote:
19 Mar 2019, 12:17
simnam wrote:
19 Mar 2019, 10:11
Bracebrace is just clarifying a Certification requirement

So whatever the change Boeing introduce, a single failure cannot lead to a catastrophic event (which means hull loss and/or multiple fatalities).
Yes, in that case the MCAS does not lead to a hazardous or catastrophic situation I believe. That's like saying if your autobrake fails it will have catastrophic consequences... No, you still have a way to take manual control (manual braking) and continue safe operations. The elevators flying off or the stab trim screw braking in half, that would be catastrophic !
I know it's way too soon to draw conclusion, but it seems that in two cases (lion air and ethiopian), a failure of one element (the AoA sensor), lead to a misfunction of a system, with ended in two catastrophic event. I understand your point of view, but if I look from a pure certifiation specification point of view, a single failure lead to catastrophic event two times.

Again, there are probably multiple ways to adress and solve the issue, but as is, the 737 MAX is not meeting the certification specification.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by jan_olieslagers » 19 Mar 2019, 17:05

Whether the AoA sensor was the cause or not, or whether it failed or not, it is a single-point-of-failure, as I understand, and that invalidates, in my logic analysis, at least the airworthiness of anything depending on it, including the MCAS. Whether this invalidates the airworthiness of the plane as such is beyond by knowledge and competence.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 19 Mar 2019, 23:02

U.S. Secretary of Transportation asks Inspector General to ensure audit of Boeing 737-MAX 8 certification is part rf Review

The U.S. Department of Transportation today confirmed Secretary Elaine L. Chao has asked that, as part of an ongoing review of factors related to aviation certification, the Inspector General conduct a formal audit of the certification process for the Boeing 737-MAX 8 aircraft. The referral memo reads:

Safety is the top priority of the Department, and all of us are saddened by the fatalities resulting from the recent accidents involving two Boeing 737-MAX 8 aircraft in Indonesia and Ethiopia. As you know, Boeing requested an amended type certification for this aircraft in January 2012, and the Federal Aviation Administration issued the certification in March 2017.

To help inform the Department’s decision making and the public’s understanding, and to assist the FAA in ensuring that its safety procedures are implemented effectively, this is to confirm my request that the Office of Inspector General proceed with an audit to compile an objective and detailed factual history of the activities that resulted in the certification of the Boeing 737-MAX 8 aircraft.

Please keep me apprised of the status of your work as it progresses
.”
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Themax
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Themax » 19 Mar 2019, 23:12

Bracebrace wrote:
19 Mar 2019, 15:08
So how do you know upon activation of the system, nobody got hurt in the back?
I think you misunderstand the system. It's not a stick pusher or a sudden nose down movement on the elevators, it only gives an input to the stabilizer trim actuators to trim down at a rate that is slower than when you would manually push the trim switches. There's no immediate effect. The negative effect will only come if you let it trim down for seconds, until you don't have any aft column authority anymore and the airplane starts to go down.
simnam wrote:
19 Mar 2019, 16:43
I know it's way too soon to draw conclusion, but it seems that in two cases (lion air and ethiopian), a failure of one element (the AoA sensor), lead to a misfunction of a system, with ended in two catastrophic event. I understand your point of view, but if I look from a pure certifiation specification point of view, a single failure lead to catastrophic event two times.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe there is a flaw in the system and I think it needs to be corrected. But I think that that's not the only problem. I think it's again a good example of the swiss cheese model (for the Lionair).

Bracebrace
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace » 20 Mar 2019, 04:18

Themax wrote:
19 Mar 2019, 23:12
I think you misunderstand the system
No it's true, I hardly know anything at all about the specific details of the system. But I don't need to understand the system. The system is a black box with inputs and outputs. The input is a failed input. The output lead to a catastrophic event. The "solution" memory items has been raised by Boeing and hasn't helped sufficiently as there has been a second catastrophic crash.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 20 Mar 2019, 09:00

An off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit saved a diving Boeing 737 Max 8. The next day, the same Lion Air jet crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 aboard (link: https://bloom.bg/2TjIKVY)

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger » 20 Mar 2019, 23:17

EASA update for the TRAN members (TRAN = commission for Transport and Tourism at the European Parliament):
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/1 ... 180319.pdf

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 21 Mar 2019, 23:08

Like many other airlines, LOT Polish Airlines has said it will demand compensation from Boeing for problems with the B737 MAX 8, the aircraft involved in two recent crashes killing more than 300 people.

The Russian government says contracts for the purchase of troubled B737 MAX have been suspended indefinitely by a number of Russian airlines.

In the US, the FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the B737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by US DOT.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 22 Mar 2019, 12:57

Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of a new system that's now at the center of two crash investigations (link: https://cnn.it/2Ft5Qpx) cnn.it/2Ft5Qpx

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Boeing767copilot » 22 Mar 2019, 14:04

luchtzak wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 12:57
Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of a new system that's now at the center of two crash investigations (link: https://cnn.it/2Ft5Qpx) cnn.it/2Ft5Qpx
IMG_1775.JPG

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 22 Mar 2019, 15:33

luchtzak wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 12:57
Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of a new system that's now at the center of two crash investigations (link: https://cnn.it/2Ft5Qpx) cnn.it/2Ft5Qpx
Ethiopian Airlines refutes the allegations:

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ethi ... ax-pilots/
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 23 Mar 2019, 18:34

Victorville is getting five Southwest Airlines 737 Max aircraft today for storage. Already to the graveyard? :mrgreen:

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger » 24 Mar 2019, 15:29


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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 24 Mar 2019, 23:24

NEWS: Global airline schedules database now removing Boeing #737MAX types for months ahead, eg.:
American until at least April 23rd
TUI Belgium until Apr 30th
United (MAX 9) until June 5th
Fiji until Sep. 30th
China Southern until Oct. 26th

Changes likely.
Updates:
@Airlineroute

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 25 Mar 2019, 12:29

TUI fly Belgium has joined three American carriers to run simulated flights designed to mimic the situation that brought down the Lion Air flight, I learned from a tweet by André Berger.

CNN: "At the gathering, pilots from the three American carriers, plus two smaller non-US airlines, ran simulated flights designed to mimic the situation that brought down the Lion Air flight in Indonesia last year, using the current and updated software, according to the person briefed on the session."

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 25 Mar 2019, 17:05

Surprising decision by the boss of Ethiopian Airlines: he keeps faith in Boeing aircraft. He has a longstanding relationship with the American aircraft manufacturer and will accept the future deliveries of 737MAX aircraft.

Garuda decided on the contrary to cancel an order for 49 remaining 77MAX planes.
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