Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 35062
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 17 Mar 2019, 16:03

Bracebrace wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 15:21
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/

I do have to add, faulty safety analyses is nothing new, techniques are evolving (most known UAL 232)
Speaking of revolving doors between Boeing and the FAA, this article states even further that the FAA had delegated to Boeing engineers the authority to certify their own planes, or at least some systems in their planes! This is absurd.
André
ex Sabena #26567

User avatar
luchtzak
Posts: 11179
Joined: 18 Sep 2002, 00:00
Location: Hofstade, Zemst - Belgium
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 17 Mar 2019, 17:08


User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 35062
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 17 Mar 2019, 21:22

Black box data (CVR and FDR) show "clear similarities" between Ethiopian Airways and Lion Air crashes, Ethiopia's Transport minister says. This had already been shown by satellite data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/et ... story.html

Earlier, Minister of Transport H.E. Dagmawit Moges, State Minister of Foreign Affairs, H.E. Dr. Markos Tekle, and Vice President of Internal Audit and Compliance at Ethiopian Airlines, Mr. Kassim Geresu briefed the diplomatic community on the various activities undertaken by the Government of Ethiopia regarding Sunday's tragic plane crash.

Transport Minister Dagmawit Moges said the Government of Ethiopia has been providing timely information and all the necessary support to governments and their respective diplomatic missions.

She stressed that all the activities undertaken in collaboration with stakeholders are done based on international standards and norms-closely monitored and analyzed with great caution and seriousness.

The Minister added that six sub-committees are set up for follow-up purposes, which she said, are jointly overseen by the Ministry of Transport and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

State Minister Dr. Markos Tekle said information is conveyed to respective countries in a consistent and organized fashion, advising diplomatic missions and their respective countries to rely on official government sources.

Vice President of Internal Audit and Compliance at Ethiopian Airlines, Mr. Kassim Geresu said efforts are well underway with regard to providing timely information and support to individuals and families of victims. He added that Ethiopian Airlines has arranged a commemorative event tomorrow (March 17) in honour of the victims of the tragic plane crash, which will be attended by religious leaders and families of the bereaved.
André
ex Sabena #26567

simnam
Posts: 14
Joined: 22 Feb 2018, 10:12

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by simnam » 17 Mar 2019, 21:33

sn26567 wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 16:03
Bracebrace wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 15:21
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/

I do have to add, faulty safety analyses is nothing new, techniques are evolving (most known UAL 232)
Speaking of revolving doors between Boeing and the FAA, this article states even further that the FAA had delegated to Boeing engineers the authority to certify their own planes, or at least some systems in their planes! This is absurd.
Note that the certification process is always carried out by the engineers of the manufacturer, based on a certification program (CP). I will simplify a bit, but this certification program details which document will be deeply reviewed and validted by the authorities, which one will be transmitted for info, and which one will not be reviewed by the authorities. This CP is based on the experience of the manufacturer, the novelty of the design, etc...
So the fact that Boeing has the authority to do part of the certification job is normal process and has been so for decades, and the process is globlly the same on EASA side.
The problem here lies in the FAA permeability to market pressure in order to maintain Boeing not too far from Airbus in their NEO/MAX battle, leading to acception of shortcuts.
Note that the EASA also validated the change to Type Certificate for 737MAX, but one could ask to which extent they have been correctly informed, being just the validating authority, FAA remaining the primary authority.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 35062
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 17 Mar 2019, 21:44

Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Dennis Muilenburg issued the following statement regarding the report from Ethiopian Transport Minister Dagmawit Moges today.:

Image
André
ex Sabena #26567

Luke777
Posts: 33
Joined: 13 Mar 2017, 21:02

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Luke777 » 18 Mar 2019, 07:34

As expected , the solution will be a new update for MCAS, and let us forget this issue ?? Anyway, i'll never trust this bad design of non fitting engines corrected with a patch, and i think many, many people will think the same...

User avatar
luchtzak
Posts: 11179
Joined: 18 Sep 2002, 00:00
Location: Hofstade, Zemst - Belgium
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 18 Mar 2019, 09:29

André Berger, TUI fly Belgium's head of flight operations, flight instructor and TRI/TRE examinator said: Social media, including erratic threads like this, grounded the 737MAX. Not a technical issue. All “conclusions” on ET302 are premature. LionAir610 pilots never performed the “memory items” and we don’t know for sure why.

As a comment on this tweet:

Bracebrace
Posts: 188
Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace » 18 Mar 2019, 10:23

Either the failure effect of a single failure is minor or major, and there is no initial risk for pax or pilots.
Either the failure effect of a single failure is hazardous or catastrophic and, there is a risk for pax or pilots. In the latter case the aircraft is not airworthy.

That makes the 737 max by definition, by rules and regulations, not airworthy. We have two crashes.

If in the future the failure effect is to be covered by software changes or hardware changes has nothing to do with the discussion. Boeing changes whatever they want (soft- or hardware) to get to the result: single failure leading to minor or major failure effects.

The internet discussions have nothing to do with these basic rules.

Luke777
Posts: 33
Joined: 13 Mar 2017, 21:02

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Luke777 » 18 Mar 2019, 12:22

Once again a slam dunk from bracebrace !

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 35062
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 18 Mar 2019, 16:35

Press release of French BEA confirming the similarities between the Ethiopian Airlines and the Lion Air crashes:

Image
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
Posts: 6135
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger » 18 Mar 2019, 16:47

Riad Bahri, Aviation specialist at Flemish radio and tv VRT, has sold his Boeing shares...
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/03/18 ... auwere-sc/

sean1982
Posts: 3158
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sean1982 » 18 Mar 2019, 17:05

Passenger wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 16:47
Riad Bahri, Aviation specialist at Flemish radio and tv VRT, has sold his Boeing shares...
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/03/18 ... auwere-sc/
There are so many mistakes in this article, neither do I think people care what he does with his shares. Every new airplane has had its technical challenges, MAX is no different. The grounding is logical, slaughtering Boeing is not.

Passenger
Posts: 6135
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger » 18 Mar 2019, 18:33

sean1982 wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 17:05
Passenger wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 16:47
Riad Bahri, Aviation specialist at Flemish radio and tv VRT, has sold his Boeing shares...
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/03/18 ... auwere-sc/
There are so many mistakes in this article, neither do I think people care what he does with his shares. Every new airplane has had its technical challenges, MAX is no different. The grounding is logical, slaughtering Boeing is not.
You obviously haven't read the article - otherwise you would know that "...he has sold his shares..." was a metaphore.

And yes, most probably there are a few mistakes in the article. But contrary to what you say, Riad Bahri is correct with his analysis: this crash is becoming more then a nightmare for both Boeing and the US FAA. "...Eén van de grootste schandalen in de moderne luchtvaartgeschiedenis lijkt volgens sommigen zo in de maak...." Riad Bahri: According to some, it will become one of the biggest scandals in modern aviation.

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 2920
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by jan_olieslagers » 18 Mar 2019, 18:57

Certainly "our" VRT has much better information regarding aviation themes since the arrival of Mr. Bahri. And yes, appreciating a metaphore requires a certain kind of mindset, yes; to keep things polite.

User avatar
luchtzak
Posts: 11179
Joined: 18 Sep 2002, 00:00
Location: Hofstade, Zemst - Belgium
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 19 Mar 2019, 02:11

Letter from Dennis Muilenburg to airlines, passengers and the aviation community:

We know lives depend on the work we do, and our teams embrace that responsibility with a deep sense of commitment every day. Our purpose at Boeing is to bring family, friends and loved ones together with our commercial airplanes—safely. The tragic losses of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 and Lion Air Flight 610 affect us all, uniting people and nations in shared grief for all those in mourning. Our hearts are heavy, and we continue to extend our deepest sympathies to the loved ones of the passengers and crew on board.

Safety is at the core of who we are at Boeing, and ensuring safe and reliable travel on our airplanes is an enduring value and our absolute commitment to everyone. This overarching focus on safety spans and binds together our entire global aerospace industry and communities. We’re united with our airline customers, international regulators and government authorities in our efforts to support the most recent investigation, understand the facts of what happened and help prevent future tragedies. Based on facts from the Lion Air Flight 610 accident and emerging data as it becomes available from the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 accident, we’re taking actions to fully ensure the safety of the 737 MAX. We also understand and regret the challenges for our customers and the flying public caused by the fleet’s grounding.

Work is progressing thoroughly and rapidly to learn more about the Ethiopian Airlines accident and understand the information from the airplane’s cockpit voice and flight data recorders. Our team is on-site with investigators to support the investigation and provide technical expertise. The Ethiopia Accident Investigation Bureau will determine when and how it’s appropriate to release additional details.

Boeing has been in the business of aviation safety for more than 100 years, and we’ll continue providing the best products, training and support to our global airline customers and pilots. This is an ongoing and relentless commitment to make safe airplanes even safer. Soon we’ll release a software update and related pilot training for the 737 MAX that will address concerns discovered in the aftermath of the Lion Air Flight 610 accident. We’ve been working in full cooperation with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, the Department of Transportation and the National Transportation Safety Board on all issues relating to both the Lion Air and the Ethiopian Airlines accidents since the Lion Air accident occurred in October last year.

Our entire team is devoted to the quality and safety of the aircraft we design, produce and support. I’ve dedicated my entire career to Boeing, working shoulder to shoulder with our amazing people and customers for more than three decades, and I personally share their deep sense of commitment. Recently, I spent time with our team members at our 737 production facility in Renton, Wash., and once again saw firsthand the pride our people feel in their work and the pain we’re all experiencing in light of these tragedies. The importance of our work demands the utmost integrity and excellence—that’s what I see in our team, and we’ll never rest in pursuit of it.

Our mission is to connect people and nations, protect freedom, explore our world and the vastness of space, and inspire the next generation of aerospace dreamers and doers—and we’ll fulfill that mission only by upholding and living our values. That’s what safety means to us. Together, we’ll keep working to earn and keep the trust people have placed in Boeing.

User avatar
luchtzak
Posts: 11179
Joined: 18 Sep 2002, 00:00
Location: Hofstade, Zemst - Belgium
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 19 Mar 2019, 02:11

Canada Transport Minister Marc Garneau on the Boeing 737 MAX: “We will in Canada, even if it’s certified by the FAA, we will do our own certification.”

sean1982
Posts: 3158
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sean1982 » 19 Mar 2019, 06:40

Passenger wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 18:33
sean1982 wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 17:05
Passenger wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 16:47
Riad Bahri, Aviation specialist at Flemish radio and tv VRT, has sold his Boeing shares...
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/03/18 ... auwere-sc/
There are so many mistakes in this article, neither do I think people care what he does with his shares. Every new airplane has had its technical challenges, MAX is no different. The grounding is logical, slaughtering Boeing is not.
You obviously haven't read the article - otherwise you would know that "...he has sold his shares..." was a metaphore.

And yes, most probably there are a few mistakes in the article. But contrary to what you say, Riad Bahri is correct with his analysis: this crash is becoming more then a nightmare for both Boeing and the US FAA. "...Eén van de grootste schandalen in de moderne luchtvaartgeschiedenis lijkt volgens sommigen zo in de maak...." Riad Bahri: According to some, it will become one of the biggest scandals in modern aviation.
Actually I did read it, well 90% of it anyway as I got annoyed with the amount of mistakes in the article. If the current standard of good journalism is that we dont care about the details as long as the spirit and intent of the message is good than I’m not a fan of it. Factual correct info in my opinion the basis of good journalism. If mr Olieslagers calls me stupid in muffled words because of that, says more about him than me.

Luke777
Posts: 33
Joined: 13 Mar 2017, 21:02

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Luke777 » 19 Mar 2019, 07:26

" Riad Bahri: According to some, it will become one of the biggest scandals in modern aviation.
Indeed i hope so, flirting with safety under economical pressure: its a no go thing. Airbus has a big expierence in electronic guided flight systems, Boeing has not, and they gave a proof of that !

Passenger
Posts: 6135
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger » 19 Mar 2019, 09:23

Unconfirmed rumours, but source is Reuters:

"...Federal prosecutors and the U.S. Department of Transportation are scrutinizing the development of Boeing Co’s 737 MAX jetliners in the wake of two deadly crashes in five months, two people briefed on the matter confirmed late on Monday. The U.S. Justice Department was looking at the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) oversight of Boeing, one of the people said. A federal grand jury in Washington, D.C. last week issued at least one subpoena to an entity involved in the plane’s development, the source confirmed... Separately, the U.S. Department of Transportation’s inspector general was also scrutinizing the FAA’s oversight of Boeing and the development of the 737 MAX, according to a person with knowledge of the matter who spoke on condition of anonymity".

...
https://www.reuters.com/article/ethiopi ... SL1N21602Q

Desert Rat
Posts: 1110
Joined: 08 May 2007, 09:38

Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Desert Rat » 19 Mar 2019, 09:43

Bracebrace wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 10:23
Either the failure effect of a single failure is minor or major, and there is no initial risk for pax or pilots.
Either the failure effect of a single failure is hazardous or catastrophic and, there is a risk for pax or pilots. In the latter case the aircraft is not airworthy.

That makes the 737 max by definition, by rules and regulations, not airworthy. We have two crashes.

If in the future the failure effect is to be covered by software changes or hardware changes has nothing to do with the discussion. Boeing changes whatever they want (soft- or hardware) to get to the result: single failure leading to minor or major failure effects.

The internet discussions have nothing to do with these basic rules.
It is not only about a failure or a wrong information computed by envelope protection computer, it is also linked to a typical flight phase,attitude,thrust setting,etc...
It is a combination of multiple factors, not only minor or major single failure.
Meaning the fix is more complicated, as it will have to take into consideration for solution validation, many different scenarii.

Post Reply