Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

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Passenger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger » 14 Mar 2019, 10:35

Desert Rat wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 09:09
What about Foxnews?
Is it accurate with them?
Yes, Fox News is correct and fair indeed: not CNN's "Trump grounded", but: "...President Trump’s announcement Wednesday that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is temporarily grounding two models of the Boeing 737 Max jet following two deadly crashes..."

737MAX
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by 737MAX » 14 Mar 2019, 11:28

etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
737 MAX What you don't get is, I never said you can replace pilots by a computer
You said you agreed with Trump when he tweets planes should be controlled by some computers @ MIT. Isn't that the same?
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
I don't know about other Boeing planes but, should not be very different than airbus
Boeing, or at least the 737, is VERY different than Airbus. With all my respect, such a comment is quite surprising from a commercial pilot.
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
Now on the MAX side, they give you a system supposed to prevent you from stalling but can pitch the plane down to a crash anytime.
So what I was pointing out is, Boeing made a safety system which pilots can NOT trust?!
Every single system can fail. The runaway stabilizer NNC is nothing new. This particular issue happened before, also on other planes than the 737 MAX ! There is absolutely NOTHING wrong by switching off the stabilizer trim. Read the bulletin published by Boeing after the Lion Air crash here: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
By the way... If your airplane doesn't behave, no training will save you.
Scary comment, really.
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
My conclusion; the MAX has serious problems and the whole world understands this.
I find it sad how people try to bully online when someone shares their toughts.
Same technique everytime, "you pretand to be, you don't know anything about flying..."
Please people!!! I do not pretend to be a pilot, very fortunately I am one :) or should I consider both my FAA and EASA licenses and say I am pilot twice ;) ).
You can share your thoughts when they are based on things you know. If you don't know, ask questions or inform yourself before commenting. Nobody would need to answer you this way if your posts made sense. They just don't make sense at all.
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
I don't think flight training is enough for such a hazard, as I stated previsouly the airplane being low on the departure portion of a flight, altitude does not guarentee the crew enough time to proceed as they should.
It's definitely a very tricky problem indeed, and as I also said several times, the MAX should be grounded if any problem can lead to so critical situations. There is no doubt about that.

I only hope & suppose authorities made their decision based on serious indications that the 2nd fatal MAX crash is due to the same problems than the Lion Air.
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
On approach if you have any flap setting selected on auto flight and need to go missed you just push the thrust levers and see what your airbus does for you,no need to think about an unexpected nose down attitude during climb out, no need for any specific unusual situation training for exemple.
This is how automation should be used.
Maybe for Airbus. I don't know. But accept reality, how many crashes/incidents could have been avoided in the past few years if pilots had reacted properly by taking over manually?

- Turkish 737 at AMS; simple RA failure that led to a crash.
- EK 777 at DXB; G/A made without thrust... that's basic flying, really.
- Asiana 777 at SFO; an (almost) perfect plane crashed due to poor piloting skills.
-... how many other examples do you need to realize there is a problem in the capability of pilots to FLY a plane??? There are numerous articles and concerns (published by authorities) about this particular issue. I'm not inventing anything, that's not my own vision of things; it's reality.
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
I still find it amazing how people instead of accepting the 737MAX problems try and bully the 320 which has been the state of the art fly by wire airplane for more than 30 years now.
Who said that here?

I was very disappointed when Boeing announced the 737 MAX. Exactly for this reason. I think Airbus was very smart by doing a NEO, as it was based on an already very modern plane. I was really hoping the NG version of the 737 to be the last one, an already outdated plane compared to what's being built nowadays. But competition decided otherwise and we're gonna have to live with another old 737 for many years to come...

737MAX
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by 737MAX » 14 Mar 2019, 11:29

Passenger wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 10:35
Desert Rat wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 09:09
What about Foxnews?
Is it accurate with them?
Yes, Fox News is correct and fair indeed: not CNN's "Trump grounded", but: "...President Trump’s announcement Wednesday that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is temporarily grounding two models of the Boeing 737 Max jet following two deadly crashes..."
What does it have to do in this topic. Nobody cares about what you think of CNN, Fox News, or Trumpy.

737MAX
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by 737MAX » 14 Mar 2019, 11:30

Conti764 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 15:38
737MAX wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 11:21
Passenger wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 10:50

Trump owns a Boeing 757. So he surely knows a bit more about aircraft then "not a thing".
Just like FlightSimmers, probably... :roll:
Years ago, I even landed a 747... ;)
Colleagues who fly/have flown the 747 say it's an easy plane to land.
Have you ever tried the 757 in Trump's colors? :-P :-P

Passenger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger » 14 Mar 2019, 11:52

737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:29
Passenger wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 10:35
Yes, Fox News is correct and fair indeed: not CNN's "Trump grounded", but: "...President Trump’s announcement Wednesday that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is temporarily grounding two models of the Boeing 737 Max jet following two deadly crashes..."
What does it have to do in this topic. Nobody cares about what you think of CNN, Fox News, or Trumpy.
My remark about Trump / Fow News was on topic, referring to the grounding of the 737 MAX 8/9 in the U.S.: it was ordered by the FAA, and not by Trump as was reported here / as CNN headlined.

By the way, I'm not the only one here to bring up Trump here:
737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:28
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
737 MAX What you don't get is, I never said you can replace pilots by a computer
You said you agreed with Trump when he tweets planes should be controlled by some computers @ MIT. Isn't that the same?
and
737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:30
Conti764 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 15:38
Years ago, I even landed a 747...
Colleagues who fly/have flown the 747 say it's an easy plane to land.
Have you ever tried the 757 in Trump's colors?

sean1982
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sean1982 » 14 Mar 2019, 12:49

737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:30
Conti764 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 15:38
737MAX wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 11:21


Just like FlightSimmers, probably... :roll:
Years ago, I even landed a 747... ;)
Colleagues who fly/have flown the 747 say it's an easy plane to land.
Have you ever tried the 757 in Trump's colors? :-P :-P
dont mention Trump, passenger will throw his toys out of the pram again ;)

Bracebrace
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace » 14 Mar 2019, 13:46

737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:28
Every single system can fail. The runaway stabilizer NNC is nothing new. This particular issue happened before, also on other planes than the 737 MAX ! There is absolutely NOTHING wrong by switching off the stabilizer trim. Read the bulletin published by Boeing after the Lion Air crash here: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/
Every single system can fail, but a not at the same rate. The Stabilizer trim runaway is a checklist that refers to a failure with a failure rate considered "extremely remote" because the result of the failure would be "catastrophic". BTW, I don't invent these words, they come from MSG failure analyses. MSG analyses have evolved and probably change with every new aircraft type, but it's about the principle.

In other words, the stab trim runaway checklist is a checklist that refers to failures that are extremely remote, and followed intensively through the implementation of a maintenance planning. That's why we have A,B,C,D checks, checks expressed in cycles, checks expressed in flight hours... to check the system within the failure timeframe and have a follow-up.

The Airbus problem is the same: it is based on a dual AoA failure, not a single. What is the chance to have a failure of system A with a certain failure rate, after system B with a similar failure rate. All these things are statistical methods to define checks and maintenance manuals. This doesn't mean it cannot happen, but the chance is extremely remote. This is pure statistics, but aircraft safety is... nothing but statistics checked on a timely basis in reality.

Back to the 737max, something apparently is very wrong in the failure analyses. The failure has had 2 times catastrophic results. Whatever checklists you want to throw at it, the reality is what it is. You cannot rely on a checklists designed for "extremely remote" failures to "save the situation" for something that is not extremely remote, but something that can happen every 6 months. If the failure re-appears, you should be able to identify and handle this with very little intervention. That is safe for a 6 months failure rate.

Nobody talks about the number of times it has already happened, maybe we only see the tip of the iceberg. Even scarier, IF it only happened twice, reality is what it is and the result is deadly: it occured twice, twice catastrophic result.

Not ONE SINGLE PILOT should in this case think he can save the day with his checklist. You weren't there. You don't know if the pilot were thrown up & down, you don't know if passengers were hitting the ceiling of the aircraft. The fact is they crashed. Twice. Whatever the cause.

If both crashes had the same cause.

But IF that is the case, than a simple failure that Boeing statistically allows to happen every 1000 or 100000 flighthours, has the ability to catastrophic events within that timeframe: that is NOT airworthy and a design error, whether you as a pilot can handle it or not. And if you think you can, this world ain't Top Gun, we don't go land on the moon. We all have families and do this to live. That's safe aviation.

You do NOT takeoff to do memory items.

737MAX
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by 737MAX » 14 Mar 2019, 14:27

Bracebrace wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 13:46

Every single system can fail, but a not at the same rate. The Stabilizer trim runaway is a checklist that refers to a failure with a failure rate considered "extremely remote" because the result of the failure would be "catastrophic". BTW, I don't invent these words, they come from MSG failure analyses. MSG analyses have evolved and probably change with every new aircraft type, but it's about the principle.

Not ONE SINGLE PILOT should in this case think he can save the day with his checklist. You weren't there. You don't know if the pilot were thrown up & down, you don't know if passengers were hitting the ceiling of the aircraft. The fact is they crashed. Twice. Whatever the cause.

If both crashes had the same cause.

But IF that is the case, than a simple failure that Boeing statistically allows to happen every 1000 or 100000 flighthours, has the ability to catastrophic events within that timeframe: that is NOT airworthy and a design error, whether you as a pilot can handle it or not. And if you think you can, this world ain't Top Gun, we don't go land on the moon. We all have families and do this to live. That's safe aviation.

You do NOT takeoff to do memory items.
Agree with all this, Bracebrace.

You leave the gate with the idea to come back with the plane in the same status.
You don't wanna go with a plane that is known to have a recurrent failure, definitely not such a messy failure.

*If* the Ethiopian crash is proven to have the same causes as the Lion Air case,I hope Mr Boeing will have serious troubles for minimizing the risks.

But unfortunately, these sort of things (not particularly this scenario) could happen anywhere/anytime and every pilot should be prepared for that. And again, being prepared means properly trained. Do you believe all pilots are properly trained? I don't. I'm also not saying properly trained means 100% chance to recover from everything. Definitely not. But not properly trained is closer to 0% than 100%...

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace » 14 Mar 2019, 14:30

Are pilots properly trained, I don't know. All I know is I "can" today and "screw up" tomorrow. So my mindset is "avoid".

Just re-reading my post, I hope I don't sound too harsh. Aviation is soo tricky, constantly balancing between economics and safety. I do ask myself the question, how much safety is required to be "safe" so it's economical survivable?

737MAX
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by 737MAX » 14 Mar 2019, 14:55

Bracebrace wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 14:30
All I know is I "can" today and "screw up" tomorrow. So my mindset is "avoid".
100% agree as well with this.
Bracebrace wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 14:30
Just re-reading my post, I hope I don't sound too harsh. Aviation is soo tricky, constantly balancing between economics and safety. I do ask myself the question, how much safety is required to be "safe" so it's economical survivable?
Indeed. I am very curious to hear more about the causes of the Ethiopian crash and see what's going to happen next. Unfortunately, the question can be asked for many other reasons; fatigue; working conditions, etc etc... but that's another discussion.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 14 Mar 2019, 16:36

Philippe Van Hoof commented on our Facebook page:
It is a complicated matter, investigations of the two crashes, aircraft design, flight computers, flight sensors, pilot trainings, test flights, ect, so my guess a minimum of 6 months.

737MAX
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by 737MAX » 14 Mar 2019, 18:33

Who is Philippe Van Hoof? An expert...?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by jan_olieslagers » 14 Mar 2019, 18:36

I was wondering too. As for his "minimum of 6 months": most European Cival Aviation Administrations usually take a year or more before producing final accident reports, even in the simplest cases. Let us not be impatient...

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Homo Aeroportus » 14 Mar 2019, 18:48

I often visit the B737.org.uk when I am interested in a specific and detailed technical issue on the 73.

They have a fairly detailed page on the MCAS : http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

My take is that Boeing as now long lost the "Pilot's airplane" attitude, claiming that with their product the pilot always has the upper hand (read compared to other's where you are at the mercy of a computer).

I beg to disagree with the Very Stable Genius in that it doesn't require an MIT diploma to fly nowadays, but simply to understand the principles behind the computer logic, the philosophy of the design, which implies being informed about it.
The MCAS seem to have been insufficiently described in the FCOM, FCTM and so on.

And this is not specific to Boeing.
Remember that when the A320 was launched its nick name in France was Rantanplan, after the name of the dog who systematically misunderstands orders in the Lucky Luke's cartoon.

And more recently, well probably already 10 years ago now, after the investigation on the Hamburg crosswind aborted landing, the BFU discovered that the concerned pilots were not properly informed, that the LH training department was not aware of it either and that it is only by talking to Toulouse that it came out casually as "Oh yeah, maybe we should have told you that in fact when the WoW is activated ...."

Anyhow by seeing yesterday evening how ADD was packed, even more than usual, the public did not seem affected by the crash to the point of cancelling their travel plans.
And the ET308 flying the ADD to NBO route was as well +80% full.
Actually the very poor shape of the cabin was more of a concern to me (ET-AOB, 8 years young).

Greetings from 2° Lat North.

H.A.

convair
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by convair » 14 Mar 2019, 20:12

There might also be a certification issue I understand: "people" talk about a "revolving door" between Boeing and FAA technical experts. Is the FAA certification process a mere rubber-stamping for Boeing?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 » 14 Mar 2019, 21:20

Go2Sky (Slovakia) will immediately provide three of its aircraft to LOT Polish Airlines which was affected by yesterday’s EASA ban on all B737 MAX operations Europe-wide.

Norwegian is seeking compensation from Boeing for its grounded fleet of B737 Max 8s. Norwegian is the first airline to say publicly it will demand that Boeing pay for lost flight time. It is expected other airlines will follow suit.

SpiceJet (India) to seek compensation from Boeing and demand credit on MRO for its 12 grounded B737 MAXs. The airline, which had an aggressive expansion plan that banked on the delivery of the aircraft, will now look to lease old planes.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 14 Mar 2019, 22:40

An interesting read:

Clues linking the recent Boeing 737 Max plane disaster to a prior, October 2018 crash came from outer space.

A new reported reveals that a satellite network is capable of tracking planes across the world, tracked the flight path of the Boeing 737 Max that crashed last Sunday. This data was critical in convincing the United States to ground the jet, following the lead of other countries around the world.

The FAA was convinced by the erratic, six minute flight of the Ethiopian Airlines plane, finding that it was close enough to an October 29th crash of another 737 Max off of the coast of Indonesia to "warrant concerns". After the data was reviewed, "it became clear -- to all parties, actually -- that the track of the Ethiopian Airlines flight was very close and behaved very similarly to the Lion Air flight," according to the agency's Acting Administrator, Daniel Elwell .

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03- ... ry-crashes

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi

Post by sean1982 » 14 Mar 2019, 23:30

sean1982 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 13:23
Maybe about time this plane is grounded, especially since early indications are again related to pitch instability after take off.
I looked at the FR24 and thought that straight away. The similarities in pitch and speed are very obvious :?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by SR20 » 15 Mar 2019, 08:58

I heard that OO-MAX would be ferried from ALC to BRU today. Anyone to confirm ?

All I found is this new NOTAM :
0843/19
From:14 MAR 19 09:35 Till:26 MAR 19 19:00 EST
Text:BOEING 737-8 MAX AND BOEING 737-9 MAX PROHIBITED IN BELGIAN AIRSPACE EXC NON COMMERCIAL FERRY FLT. REF THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY IN EXERCISE OF ITS POWERS IN ACCORDANCE WITH REGULATION (EU) 2018/1139 ARTICLE 70

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak » 15 Mar 2019, 09:20

The Ethiopian delegation led by the Chief investigator of Accident Investigation Bureau has arrived in the French Safety Investigation (BEA) facilities and the investigation process has started in Paris.

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