Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

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etopsflyers
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by etopsflyers »

Themax wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 20:40
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 19:32
Image
I don't know the airbus at all, but from looking at that picture, I fail to see any difference with the Max. An automatic system can and will probably fail at some time (it is still made my humans who are far from perfect), so when it does, switch it off. I fail to see how that makes the Max any more dangerous than any other modern airliner flying in the world right now ?
Still grounding the airplane is probably a good idea until more information comes out of the black boxes.
For me the biggest difference between MAX and A320 is we don't know enough about the MAX yet.
One thing is sure though, two crashed at low altitude within minutes after departure is very alarming and this is what makes it more dangerous than the others.
Any airplane can have a failure of course, yesterday's Turkish BRU-IST A321NEO had a diversion to Sofia due to mechanical problems but in the MAX case loss of control is not only dangerous, it is fatal.
I don't think flight training is enough for such a hazard, as I stated previsouly the airplane being low on the departure portion of a flight, altitude does not guarentee the crew enough time to proceed as they should.
Mitigating risks is primary in aviation, grounding the MAX does not mean it is a bad airplane, it is a temporary event and will be over when the the issue will be sorted out.

Etops Flyers

etopsflyers
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by etopsflyers »

sn26567 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 20:50
Trump grounds Boeing Max planes

President Donald Trump says his administration is grounding Boeing 737 Max planes based on new information about the crash of an Ethiopian Air Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft.

Trump said from the White House on Wednesday that planes currently in the air would be ordered to land at their destination and remain grounded, and that airlines and pilots had been notified of the decision.

Source: CNN
I really look forward to what's gonna happen next.

Passenger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 20:50
Trump grounds Boeing Max planes

President Donald Trump says his administration is grounding Boeing 737 Max planes based on new information about the crash of an Ethiopian Air Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft. Trump said from the White House on Wednesday that planes currently in the air would be ordered to land at their destination and remain grounded, and that airlines and pilots had been notified of the decision.

Source: CNN
When CNN is the source for news about Trump, there is a 100% certainty that it's not accurate. It's not "Trump grounds Boeing MAX planes": it's "Trump announces that the FAA grounds Boeing 737 MAX 8/9".

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/faa- ... in-the-us/

Relevant FAA Emergency Order (and not Trump Executive Order):
https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/ ... _Order.pdf

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luchtzak
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak »

French aviation authorities to investigate the Ethiopian Airlines orange black boxes.

⚠️ Accident du #Boeing737Max
@BoeingAirplanes
ET-AVJ exploité par
@flyethiopian
survenu le 10/03 / Les autorités éthiopiennes demandent à
@BEA_Aero
son assistance pour l’analyse des FDR & CVR / Toute communication sur les avancées de l’enquête est du ressort de ces autorités.

thalenoi
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by thalenoi »

luchtzak wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 11:35
Stij wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 10:48
Conti764 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 10:23
Maye Boeing would have been better off if they designed the 737NG replacement from zero, but they didn't and now it's up to them to resolve these issues.
I gues the MAX series will be the last 737...
Guess not, still constructing Boeing 737 MAX 200 etc...

The concept and the design of the 737 has been proven to be successful ...
But not the changes made to the concept with the max.
Flybywire, The French are far more advanced.
Europe had realtime computer programs in 1985 whilst American software was still running batch with 80 colon input data, I know: I worked for the #1 USA financial software mainframe company 1980-1989.


Desert Rat
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Desert Rat »

Passenger wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 21:32
sn26567 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 20:50
Trump grounds Boeing Max planes

President Donald Trump says his administration is grounding Boeing 737 Max planes based on new information about the crash of an Ethiopian Air Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft. Trump said from the White House on Wednesday that planes currently in the air would be ordered to land at their destination and remain grounded, and that airlines and pilots had been notified of the decision.

Source: CNN
When CNN is the source for news about Trump, there is a 100% certainty that it's not accurate. It's not "Trump grounds Boeing MAX planes": it's "Trump announces that the FAA grounds Boeing 737 MAX 8/9".

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/faa- ... in-the-us/

Relevant FAA Emergency Order (and not Trump Executive Order):
https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/ ... _Order.pdf
What about Foxnews?
Is it accurate with them?

Passenger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger »

Desert Rat wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 09:09
What about Foxnews?
Is it accurate with them?
Yes, Fox News is correct and fair indeed: not CNN's "Trump grounded", but: "...President Trump’s announcement Wednesday that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is temporarily grounding two models of the Boeing 737 Max jet following two deadly crashes..."

Passenger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Passenger »

737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:29
Passenger wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 10:35
Yes, Fox News is correct and fair indeed: not CNN's "Trump grounded", but: "...President Trump’s announcement Wednesday that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is temporarily grounding two models of the Boeing 737 Max jet following two deadly crashes..."
What does it have to do in this topic. Nobody cares about what you think of CNN, Fox News, or Trumpy.
My remark about Trump / Fow News was on topic, referring to the grounding of the 737 MAX 8/9 in the U.S.: it was ordered by the FAA, and not by Trump as was reported here / as CNN headlined.

By the way, I'm not the only one here to bring up Trump here:
737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:28
etopsflyers wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 13:12
737 MAX What you don't get is, I never said you can replace pilots by a computer
You said you agreed with Trump when he tweets planes should be controlled by some computers @ MIT. Isn't that the same?
and
737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:30
Conti764 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 15:38
Years ago, I even landed a 747...
Colleagues who fly/have flown the 747 say it's an easy plane to land.
Have you ever tried the 757 in Trump's colors?

sean1982
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sean1982 »

737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:30
Conti764 wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 15:38
737MAX wrote:
13 Mar 2019, 11:21


Just like FlightSimmers, probably... :roll:
Years ago, I even landed a 747... ;)
Colleagues who fly/have flown the 747 say it's an easy plane to land.
Have you ever tried the 757 in Trump's colors? :-P :-P
dont mention Trump, passenger will throw his toys out of the pram again ;)

Bracebrace
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace »

737MAX wrote:
14 Mar 2019, 11:28
Every single system can fail. The runaway stabilizer NNC is nothing new. This particular issue happened before, also on other planes than the 737 MAX ! There is absolutely NOTHING wrong by switching off the stabilizer trim. Read the bulletin published by Boeing after the Lion Air crash here: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/
Every single system can fail, but a not at the same rate. The Stabilizer trim runaway is a checklist that refers to a failure with a failure rate considered "extremely remote" because the result of the failure would be "catastrophic". BTW, I don't invent these words, they come from MSG failure analyses. MSG analyses have evolved and probably change with every new aircraft type, but it's about the principle.

In other words, the stab trim runaway checklist is a checklist that refers to failures that are extremely remote, and followed intensively through the implementation of a maintenance planning. That's why we have A,B,C,D checks, checks expressed in cycles, checks expressed in flight hours... to check the system within the failure timeframe and have a follow-up.

The Airbus problem is the same: it is based on a dual AoA failure, not a single. What is the chance to have a failure of system A with a certain failure rate, after system B with a similar failure rate. All these things are statistical methods to define checks and maintenance manuals. This doesn't mean it cannot happen, but the chance is extremely remote. This is pure statistics, but aircraft safety is... nothing but statistics checked on a timely basis in reality.

Back to the 737max, something apparently is very wrong in the failure analyses. The failure has had 2 times catastrophic results. Whatever checklists you want to throw at it, the reality is what it is. You cannot rely on a checklists designed for "extremely remote" failures to "save the situation" for something that is not extremely remote, but something that can happen every 6 months. If the failure re-appears, you should be able to identify and handle this with very little intervention. That is safe for a 6 months failure rate.

Nobody talks about the number of times it has already happened, maybe we only see the tip of the iceberg. Even scarier, IF it only happened twice, reality is what it is and the result is deadly: it occured twice, twice catastrophic result.

Not ONE SINGLE PILOT should in this case think he can save the day with his checklist. You weren't there. You don't know if the pilot were thrown up & down, you don't know if passengers were hitting the ceiling of the aircraft. The fact is they crashed. Twice. Whatever the cause.

If both crashes had the same cause.

But IF that is the case, than a simple failure that Boeing statistically allows to happen every 1000 or 100000 flighthours, has the ability to catastrophic events within that timeframe: that is NOT airworthy and a design error, whether you as a pilot can handle it or not. And if you think you can, this world ain't Top Gun, we don't go land on the moon. We all have families and do this to live. That's safe aviation.

You do NOT takeoff to do memory items.

Bracebrace
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Bracebrace »

Are pilots properly trained, I don't know. All I know is I "can" today and "screw up" tomorrow. So my mindset is "avoid".

Just re-reading my post, I hope I don't sound too harsh. Aviation is soo tricky, constantly balancing between economics and safety. I do ask myself the question, how much safety is required to be "safe" so it's economical survivable?

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luchtzak
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak »

Philippe Van Hoof commented on our Facebook page:
It is a complicated matter, investigations of the two crashes, aircraft design, flight computers, flight sensors, pilot trainings, test flights, ect, so my guess a minimum of 6 months.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by jan_olieslagers »

I was wondering too. As for his "minimum of 6 months": most European Cival Aviation Administrations usually take a year or more before producing final accident reports, even in the simplest cases. Let us not be impatient...

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

I often visit the B737.org.uk when I am interested in a specific and detailed technical issue on the 73.

They have a fairly detailed page on the MCAS : http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

My take is that Boeing as now long lost the "Pilot's airplane" attitude, claiming that with their product the pilot always has the upper hand (read compared to other's where you are at the mercy of a computer).

I beg to disagree with the Very Stable Genius in that it doesn't require an MIT diploma to fly nowadays, but simply to understand the principles behind the computer logic, the philosophy of the design, which implies being informed about it.
The MCAS seem to have been insufficiently described in the FCOM, FCTM and so on.

And this is not specific to Boeing.
Remember that when the A320 was launched its nick name in France was Rantanplan, after the name of the dog who systematically misunderstands orders in the Lucky Luke's cartoon.

And more recently, well probably already 10 years ago now, after the investigation on the Hamburg crosswind aborted landing, the BFU discovered that the concerned pilots were not properly informed, that the LH training department was not aware of it either and that it is only by talking to Toulouse that it came out casually as "Oh yeah, maybe we should have told you that in fact when the WoW is activated ...."

Anyhow by seeing yesterday evening how ADD was packed, even more than usual, the public did not seem affected by the crash to the point of cancelling their travel plans.
And the ET308 flying the ADD to NBO route was as well +80% full.
Actually the very poor shape of the cabin was more of a concern to me (ET-AOB, 8 years young).

Greetings from 2° Lat North.

H.A.

convair
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by convair »

There might also be a certification issue I understand: "people" talk about a "revolving door" between Boeing and FAA technical experts. Is the FAA certification process a mere rubber-stamping for Boeing?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by sn26567 »

Go2Sky (Slovakia) will immediately provide three of its aircraft to LOT Polish Airlines which was affected by yesterday’s EASA ban on all B737 MAX operations Europe-wide.

Norwegian is seeking compensation from Boeing for its grounded fleet of B737 Max 8s. Norwegian is the first airline to say publicly it will demand that Boeing pay for lost flight time. It is expected other airlines will follow suit.

SpiceJet (India) to seek compensation from Boeing and demand credit on MRO for its 12 grounded B737 MAXs. The airline, which had an aggressive expansion plan that banked on the delivery of the aircraft, will now look to lease old planes.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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luchtzak
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by luchtzak »

An interesting read:

Clues linking the recent Boeing 737 Max plane disaster to a prior, October 2018 crash came from outer space.

A new reported reveals that a satellite network is capable of tracking planes across the world, tracked the flight path of the Boeing 737 Max that crashed last Sunday. This data was critical in convincing the United States to ground the jet, following the lead of other countries around the world.

The FAA was convinced by the erratic, six minute flight of the Ethiopian Airlines plane, finding that it was close enough to an October 29th crash of another 737 Max off of the coast of Indonesia to "warrant concerns". After the data was reviewed, "it became clear -- to all parties, actually -- that the track of the Ethiopian Airlines flight was very close and behaved very similarly to the Lion Air flight," according to the agency's Acting Administrator, Daniel Elwell .

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03- ... ry-crashes

sean1982
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi

Post by sean1982 »

sean1982 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 13:23
Maybe about time this plane is grounded, especially since early indications are again related to pitch instability after take off.
I looked at the FR24 and thought that straight away. The similarities in pitch and speed are very obvious :?

SR20
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX crashes between Addis Ababa and Nairobi - Impact on Boeing 737 MAX

Post by SR20 »

I heard that OO-MAX would be ferried from ALC to BRU today. Anyone to confirm ?

All I found is this new NOTAM :
0843/19
From:14 MAR 19 09:35 Till:26 MAR 19 19:00 EST
Text:BOEING 737-8 MAX AND BOEING 737-9 MAX PROHIBITED IN BELGIAN AIRSPACE EXC NON COMMERCIAL FERRY FLT. REF THE CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY IN EXERCISE OF ITS POWERS IN ACCORDANCE WITH REGULATION (EU) 2018/1139 ARTICLE 70

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