KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

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nordikcam
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KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by nordikcam » 05 Mar 2019, 20:09

https://www.lalibre.be/economie/conjonc ... 78f0f6e5c5


The Second Chamber of the Dutch Parliament wants to end the air links between Amsterdam and Brussels.
The train ride between the two capitals is indeed just as fast and less harmful to the environment.

Passenger
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Re: KL out of BRU ?

Post by Passenger » 05 Mar 2019, 20:31

nordikcam wrote:
05 Mar 2019, 20:09
https://www.lalibre.be/economie/conjonc ... 78f0f6e5c5
The Second Chamber of the Dutch Parliament wants to end the air links between Amsterdam and Brussels.
The train ride between the two capitals is indeed just as fast and less harmful to the environment.
Indeed: the Dutch Parliament (Tweede Kamer) has accepted a motion from Groen-Links (the Green-Left party), asking for a fase-out from AMS-BRU-AMS. Reasons given: AMS needs more slots for more valuable routes, and the train connection is faster and better for the environment.

De Kamer,

gehoord de beraadslaging,

Constaterende dat de beschikbare slots op Schiphol schaars zijn en dat het een nationaal belang is dat deze verstandig en zoveel mogelijk voor onmisbare routes worden ingezet;

Constaterende dat er nog meermaals dagelijks commercieel wordt gevlogen tussen Amsterdam en Brussel;

Overwegende dat de trein op dit traject effectief vrijwel altijd sneller is en altijd beter voor het milieu;

Verzoekt de regering om met alle hiervoor relevante partijen in overleg te treden met als inzet met hen afspraken te maken over het uitfaseren van de lijnvluchten tussen Amsterdam en Brussel.


https://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerstukken ... 2019D08650

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sn26567
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Re: KL out of BRU ?

Post by sn26567 » 05 Mar 2019, 20:35

KLM wants to continue flying the route, considering that trains are not sufficiently reliable. And indeed, when somebody misses his flight because a delayed train, will NS or Thalys pay for the rerouting? KLM will not be responsible (unless they codeshare on the rail link and have an agreement with the operator).
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Re: KL out of BRU ?

Post by Passenger » 05 Mar 2019, 21:28

When KLM says that AMS-BRU-AMS is profitable for them: who are we to doubt that? Though I think that the route is mostly used as feeder for their long hauls.

Anyway... On the day that Groen-Links (the Green-Left Party) stated that AMS-BRU-AMS is not environment-friendly, some 4.000 Dutch citizens flew from AMS to Madrid to watch a soccer game that is also live on tv. And even worse: apart from those 20 or so 737's and 320's, some preferred a one-day citytrip to MAD on a more cosy way: C56X (LX-VMF), F900 (PH-LAU), C650 (PH-MYX), F900 (PH-NDK), F900 (N707FJ), CRJ2 (9H-JOY).

Euh... Groen-Links, any comment?

(List private charters: courtesy Dutch Scramble Forum)

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lumumba
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Re: KL out of BRU ?

Post by lumumba » 05 Mar 2019, 22:26

Anyway we have to start thinking another way and travel less by air and more by train (or other transports)if it consumes a lot less carbon.
Looks logic today and if it's not reliable we have to make it reliable.
I really hope they gone implementing this air travel tax it's important today to develop alternatives....
It's not that these people will not go to Amsterdam anymore to catch there plane but to make them travel differently,sure it's not possible to bring the supporters of a football match to Madrid by train!( or not yet)
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: KL out of BRU ?

Post by convair » 06 Mar 2019, 00:24

sn26567 wrote:
05 Mar 2019, 20:35
KLM wants to continue flying the route, considering that trains are not sufficiently reliable. And indeed, when somebody misses his flight because a delayed train, will NS or Thalys pay for the rerouting? KLM will not be responsible (unless they codeshare on the rail link and have an agreement with the operator).
Kl could do like its sister AF on the Brussels South-CDG Thalys. You've certainly used the AF check-in counter at Midi-Zuid. For a while, AF did even take care of your luggage from there up to your final destination; I don't know if they still do that (I have succeeded to avoid that awful CDG rail station for several years now) but it would be a good idea as traveling with 2 big suitcases by train is not a very enjoyable experience. It could be from BRU to AMS or from another Brussels rail station, like North (or even Schaerbeek if parking a car is easier there).

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BrightCedars
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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels ?

Post by BrightCedars » 06 Mar 2019, 09:19

I tend to agree with the conclusion that the plane is an overkill on this route and that a fast reliable rail link shall replace it given that:
  • There is a frequent connection from AMS to Brussels Midi or Central or North
  • There is a frequent connection from BRU to Amsterdam CS and Paris North
  • There is a frequent connection from CDG to Brussels Midi or Central or North
  • Same applies to SN's CDG service that mostly caters for African connections
  • No operator is allowed to enter the routes
  • No exclusive agreements between HST and a single airline/group
It needs to be a level playing field for all incumbent and prospective players!

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels ?

Post by Ansett » 06 Mar 2019, 09:31

The present solution offered by AF is far from ideal :
https://www.airfrance.be/BE/en/common/r ... ff-CDG.htm

I presume they had to stop the check-in to the final destination from Brussels-South for security reasons.

The problem with the train is that often there is not enough luggage storage space. In addition, you'd better watch your luggage if it is not with you, but in the small luggage space at the entry of the Thalys, because luggage has been stolen at the stops in Antwerp (mostly) or Rotterdam.

If KL has to stop flights between AMS-BRU-AMS I might reconsider flying especially intra-European with them, unless they do a through check-in to the final destination at Brussels-South.

For long-haul flights, tickets are usually a lot cheaper from AMS than from BRU. In that case, I will accept the burden of going by train to Schiphol as it has saved me sometimes up to a thousand euros on a long haul Business class flight with a ticket starting at AMS.

Stij
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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by Stij » 06 Mar 2019, 18:00

The train is fine if they het theorie act together and currently they don’t:

Luggage should be handed over in the railway station not be seen again until at destination. On they back, clear customs in CDG or AMS and drop it again to get back in the railway station.

Same connections guaranteed as for normal connections.

Correct waiting areas.

Otherwise it will never work.

Dreaming mode on.

Why don t our governments then build special platforms behind security at BRU, CDG, AMS and FRA?

Then nobody would mind taking the train...

Stij

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by jan_olieslagers » 06 Mar 2019, 19:42

Because it is not for the government to build train stations, let alone platforms in train stations? It's been some time since the 19th century, after all.

Connection guaranties could be negotiated between operators of rail and air traffic, but I smell a certain degree of "reluctance of the unknown" on both sides.

Securing luggage is more difficult, it would require sealed luggage rooms in trains but there's none today and they'll not be created in 1-2-3, AFAICS.

Also, the railway station below Zaventem terminal has three platforms today and they are in full use for "non-secured" trains, and it won't be easy to add more platforms. And nobody wants more Diabolo surcharges!

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by lumumba » 06 Mar 2019, 21:25

But in this case we don't need a rail station in Brussels Airport you just need to make it easy for passengers in train stations in Brussels or Antwerp and make the train drive with a very good regularity.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by sn26567 » 06 Mar 2019, 21:34

lumumba wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 21:25
But in this case we don't need a rail station in Brussels Airport you just need to make it easy for passengers in train stations in Brussels or Antwerp and make the train drive with a very good regularity.
I disagree. Belgian passengers are sometimes travelling from foreign airports (AMS, CDG, DUS) and they want seamless connections from train to plane at those airports, but there are also foreign passengers coming to Brussels Airport and they want the same seamless connections at BRU.
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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by JOVAN » 06 Mar 2019, 22:27

The real issue here has nothing to do with environmental concerns.

AMS is almost at full capacity and had to refuse slots to some cargo companies already.

Remember the Russian Cargo airline losing its slots, one or two years ago.
Poetin was about to close Russian airspace for all KLM flight ( quite a lot : Tokyo, Osaka, Chinese destinations and Russian destinations).

Very quickly the Dutch gave in.

Same now with US cargo airlines that are sent away; Trumpie now threatens to take awy some rights from KLM to fly US destinations.

They are desperately looking to free slots. BRU is an obvious choice, like is DUS, Cologne,...

The slots will immediatly be filled in with Cargo and long haul flights. How about the environment ???????

Now, we all know that Railways are Nationalistic institutions.
To take a train from anywhere in Holland to AMS is quite comfortable (frequency, comfort, ...=OK)
But as soon as borders are to be crossed, it becomes "highly" risky. UNRELIABLE.

KLM wants to stay a Reliable Airline.

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by sn26567 » 06 Mar 2019, 22:50

JOVAN wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 22:27
AMS is almost at full capacity and had to refuse slots to some cargo companies already.
As Michael O'Leary said at today's A4E Aviation Summit in Brussels (without KLM CEO Pieter Elbers reacting), this is an artificial limitation made to protect KLM, which has all the slots it wants. No competition can come in, and only foreign airlines are sometimes restricted (until their government retaliates, as you explained very well).

If ever KLM loses its slots for Brussels flights, you can be sure that these slots will be reallocated to KLM for other destinations.)
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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by lumumba » 06 Mar 2019, 23:16

sn26567 wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 21:34
lumumba wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 21:25
But in this case we don't need a rail station in Brussels Airport you just need to make it easy for passengers in train stations in Brussels or Antwerp and make the train drive with a very good regularity.
I disagree. Belgian passengers are sometimes travelling from foreign airports (AMS, CDG, DUS) and they want seamless connections from train to plane at those airports, but there are also foreign passengers coming to Brussels Airport and they want the same seamless connections at BRU.
I understand but how much passengers are using KLM coming from another destination to AMS the biggest part of this flight are departing from BRU and are transiting true AMS.
So they can depart from the train station in Brussels or Antwerp no need to come to the airport. So in this particular situation no need of a train station in the airport.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by Ansett » 06 Mar 2019, 23:31

sn26567 wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 22:50
As Michael O'Leary said at today's A4E Aviation Summit in Brussels (without KLM CEO Pieter Elbers reacting), this is an artificial limitation made to protect KLM, which has all the slots it wants.
I tend to disagree. I don't think the limitation is artificial. Schiphol is vol. KL would like to expand, too.
It's vital for them for their weight in the AF-KL Group.

KL has alreday been forced to give up slots to, inter alia, Norwegian, to New York (for competition reasons).

If KL wants to keep the flights to BRU it's because there is no good alternative from Brussels.
I don't know how the Dutch government/parliament could forbid these flights. We'll see.

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by Passenger » 07 Mar 2019, 08:49

sn26567 wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 22:50
JOVAN wrote:
06 Mar 2019, 22:27
AMS is almost at full capacity and had to refuse slots to some cargo companies already.
As Michael O'Leary said at today's A4E Aviation Summit in Brussels (without KLM CEO Pieter Elbers reacting), this is an artificial limitation made to protect KLM, which has all the slots it wants. No competition can come in, and only foreign airlines are sometimes restricted (until their government retaliates, as you explained very well).
Normal reaction from someone who is unable to get himself a market share at that airport.

But untrue: the limitation is not to protect KLM: it's an agreement between the airport, the slot coordinator, the airlines, the regional authorities and regional committees: "500,000 is the limit".

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by Desert Rat » 07 Mar 2019, 09:38

I'm using the route at least 10 times a year, if that would turn to be true, I would then fly Hainan from BRU instead of KLM...

nordikcam
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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by nordikcam » 07 Mar 2019, 11:25

Desert Rat wrote:
07 Mar 2019, 09:38
I'm using the route at least 10 times a year, if that would turn to be true, I would then fly Hainan from BRU instead of KLM...
I'm using the route at least 15 times a year, if that would turn to be true, I will fly only AF via CDG

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Re: KLM to end flights between Amsterdam and Brussels?

Post by telspace2005 » 07 Mar 2019, 18:05

The Second Chamber of the Dutch Parliament has nothing else to do ?
Probably a bunch of...

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