Another strike at skyes (Belgocontrol): 12-13 March 2019

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Boeing767copilot
Posts: 1306
Joined: 13 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by Boeing767copilot »

mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 13:26
Those guys are abusing the system. Everyone knows that it was an organized manoeuvre: they all called sick on the same day!
And guess what? They are untouchable! If the company sends them a doctor at home to check if they are really sick, they simply have to tell him that if he/she puts them back to work then it will be his/her responsibility in case of incident. Which doctor would dare to do so? They have an almost unlimited amout of sick leave days, they don't even need to provide a sick note if it's only for one day.

And just a reminder of their very bad working conditions:
- 35 hours per week (in reality around 30 hours as they leave every day)
- any extra shift (recall) is paid around 200€ and they get the hours back
- nights last 10 hours (they hardly stay 9 hours at work and sleep half of them) and they get 4 extra hours for free (famous system called "10 is 14")
- no radar controller earns less than 5000€/month (netto) + premies
- end of the year allowance of more than 3000€ + holiday allowance of 2500€ + annual premie for the company performance (another joke) 2500€
- 30 days of leave each year
- duty roster of their choice around 28 days out of 30. If they don't get the shift they want they can swap freely with other colleagues
- no annual check (the ones they have is a joke -> they get the questions in advance and the practical is just signing a paper)
- they have huge responsibilities: seriously? Have you ever heard about one losing his/her job? In the worse case (very few over the last 30 years), they get an office job, paid as much, and they do...nothing

This is an absolutely unacceptable situation and they are right to strike :)

They will stay away from here because their case is simply undefendable. Many of them know it and prefer to stay silent.
If that is true, UNBELIEVABLE.
Then, it’s time to privatize skeyes/Belgocontrol

SR20
Posts: 495
Joined: 17 Apr 2017, 09:14

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by SR20 »

convair wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:19
Yet, you seem to be backing their (in)action. I fully agree with you on the back-up thing. If there was one, they wouldn't call sick.
I thought there was a back-up procedure (called "business continuity" I heard) to allow traffic from/to regional airports (LGG, CRL, OST, ANR) when Air Traffic Services were not available at Brussels ACC/APP ! This procedure was established following the big ATS black-out in May 2015. There is normally a corridor made available between those airports and respectively Germany, France, UK and the Netherlands, to enable a direct coordination between ATC towers and the foreign ATS provider !

https://www.hbvl.be/cnt/dmf20160422_022 ... nokkerzeel
https://www.levif.be/actualite/belgique ... 92569.html

Why hasn't it been implemented friday evening ?
Last edited by SR20 on 03 Mar 2019, 16:53, edited 1 time in total.

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sn26567
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Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by sn26567 »

SR20 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:43
convair wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:19
Yet, you seem to be backing their (in)action. I fully agree with you on the back-up thing. If there was one, they wouldn't call sick.
I thought there was a back-up procedure (called "business continuity" I heard) to allow traffic from/to regional airports (LGG, CRL, OST, ANR) when Air Traffic Services were not available at Brussels ACC/APP ! This procedure was established following the big ATS black-out in May 2015. There is normally a corridor made available between those airports and respectively Germany, France, UK and the Netherlands, to enable a direct coordination between ATC towers and the foreign ATS profider !

https://www.hbvl.be/cnt/dmf20160422_022 ... nokkerzeel
https://www.levif.be/actualite/belgique ... 92569.html

Why hasn't it been implemented friday evening ?
To my knowledge, it was apparently implemented for two flights: one CAL (747 cargo) to Liège and one TUI fly Belgium (E190) to Ostend.
André
ex Sabena #26567

SR20
Posts: 495
Joined: 17 Apr 2017, 09:14

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by SR20 »

sn26567 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:48
SR20 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:43

I thought there was a back-up procedure (called "business continuity" I heard) to allow traffic from/to regional airports (LGG, CRL, OST, ANR) when Air Traffic Services were not available at Brussels ACC/APP ! This procedure was established following the big ATS black-out in May 2015. There is normally a corridor made available between those airports and respectively Germany, France, UK and the Netherlands, to enable a direct coordination between ATC towers and the foreign ATS profider !

https://www.hbvl.be/cnt/dmf20160422_022 ... nokkerzeel
https://www.levif.be/actualite/belgique ... 92569.html

Why hasn't it been implemented friday evening ?
To my knowledge, it was apparently implemented for two flights: one CAL (747 cargo) to Liège and one TUI fly Belgium (E190) to Ostend.
Are you sure for Liège ? The only traffic that landed there between 2300 LT and 0600 LT was an Air Bridge Cargo (ABW253 from SVO). Landing time around 23.30 LT and according to my information, it was an exception.
Three CAL flights (ICL971 from TLV, ICL952 from JFK and ICL982 from ATL) were diverted to CGN. So I think the back-up procedure hasn't been implemented !

Anyway, if what you say is true, why would only one aircraft bound for LGG benefit from this procedure ?

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sn26567
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Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
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Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by sn26567 »

You are right. I confused an ABC with a CAL. :oops:
André
ex Sabena #26567

mvg
Posts: 135
Joined: 08 Jun 2017, 04:30

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by mvg »

100% true. This info is coming straight from inside the company.

Has anyone got any pay slips and monthly reports to prove it right or wrong? ;)

It's high time to privatize indeed or at least to open the market (honestly) to competitors (some tried for example for a flemish airport but politics :cry: )
Boeing767copilot wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:28
mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 13:26
Those guys are abusing the system. Everyone knows that it was an organized manoeuvre: they all called sick on the same day!
And guess what? They are untouchable! If the company sends them a doctor at home to check if they are really sick, they simply have to tell him that if he/she puts them back to work then it will be his/her responsibility in case of incident. Which doctor would dare to do so? They have an almost unlimited amout of sick leave days, they don't even need to provide a sick note if it's only for one day.

And just a reminder of their very bad working conditions:
- 35 hours per week (in reality around 30 hours as they leave every day)
- any extra shift (recall) is paid around 200€ and they get the hours back
- nights last 10 hours (they hardly stay 9 hours at work and sleep half of them) and they get 4 extra hours for free (famous system called "10 is 14")
- no radar controller earns less than 5000€/month (netto) + premies
- end of the year allowance of more than 3000€ + holiday allowance of 2500€ + annual premie for the company performance (another joke) 2500€
- 30 days of leave each year
- duty roster of their choice around 28 days out of 30. If they don't get the shift they want they can swap freely with other colleagues
- no annual check (the ones they have is a joke -> they get the questions in advance and the practical is just signing a paper)
- they have huge responsibilities: seriously? Have you ever heard about one losing his/her job? In the worse case (very few over the last 30 years), they get an office job, paid as much, and they do...nothing

This is an absolutely unacceptable situation and they are right to strike :)

They will stay away from here because their case is simply undefendable. Many of them know it and prefer to stay silent.
If that is true, UNBELIEVABLE.
Then, it’s time to privatize skeyes/Belgocontrol

mvg
Posts: 135
Joined: 08 Jun 2017, 04:30

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by mvg »

That procedure is NOT applicable in case of strike. Only in case of equipment failure (CANAC failure)
SR20 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 16:46
sn26567 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:48
SR20 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:43

I thought there was a back-up procedure (called "business continuity" I heard) to allow traffic from/to regional airports (LGG, CRL, OST, ANR) when Air Traffic Services were not available at Brussels ACC/APP ! This procedure was established following the big ATS black-out in May 2015. There is normally a corridor made available between those airports and respectively Germany, France, UK and the Netherlands, to enable a direct coordination between ATC towers and the foreign ATS profider !

https://www.hbvl.be/cnt/dmf20160422_022 ... nokkerzeel
https://www.levif.be/actualite/belgique ... 92569.html

Why hasn't it been implemented friday evening ?
To my knowledge, it was apparently implemented for two flights: one CAL (747 cargo) to Liège and one TUI fly Belgium (E190) to Ostend.
Are you sure for Liège ? The only traffic that landed there between 2300 LT and 0600 LT was an Air Bridge Cargo (ABW253 from SVO). Landing time around 23.30 LT and according to my information, it was an exception.
Three CAL flights (ICL971 from TLV, ICL952 from JFK and ICL982 from ATL) were diverted to CGN. So I think the back-up procedure hasn't been implemented !

Anyway, if what you say is true, why would only one aircraft bound for LGG benefit from this procedure ?

SR20
Posts: 495
Joined: 17 Apr 2017, 09:14

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by SR20 »

mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 17:08
That procedure is NOT applicable in case of strike. Only in case of equipment failure (CANAC failure)
Are you sure ? Taken from the Belgocontrol press room :

For each of the five airports where Belgocontrol manages the air traffic, the company elaborates procedures – a business continuity plan – so as to guarantee service provision in case of technical difficulties or other incidents. In 2016 such a plan entered into force at the airports of Charleroi and Liège. Up next is Ostend: the new procedure was introduced on 25 May 2017 in collaboration with British air traffic controller NATS.

Staff shortage is not considered as an incident ?

https://press.skeyes.be/belgocontrol-en ... -with-nats

Nevihta
Posts: 450
Joined: 24 Dec 2008, 16:31

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by Nevihta »

mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 13:26
Those guys are abusing the system. Everyone knows that it was an organized manoeuvre: they all called sick on the same day!
And guess what? They are untouchable! If the company sends them a doctor at home to check if they are really sick, they simply have to tell him that if he/she puts them back to work then it will be his/her responsibility in case of incident. Which doctor would dare to do so? They have an almost unlimited amout of sick leave days, they don't even need to provide a sick note if it's only for one day.

And just a reminder of their very bad working conditions:
- 35 hours per week (in reality around 30 hours as they leave every day)
- any extra shift (recall) is paid around 200€ and they get the hours back
- nights last 10 hours (they hardly stay 9 hours at work and sleep half of them) and they get 4 extra hours for free (famous system called "10 is 14")
- no radar controller earns less than 5000€/month (netto) + premies
- end of the year allowance of more than 3000€ + holiday allowance of 2500€ + annual premie for the company performance (another joke) 2500€
- 30 days of leave each year
- duty roster of their choice around 28 days out of 30. If they don't get the shift they want they can swap freely with other colleagues
- no annual check (the ones they have is a joke -> they get the questions in advance and the practical is just signing a paper)
- they have huge responsibilities: seriously? Have you ever heard about one losing his/her job? In the worse case (very few over the last 30 years), they get an office job, paid as much, and they do...nothing

This is an absolutely unacceptable situation and they are right to strike :)

They will stay away from here because their case is simply undefendable. Many of them know it and prefer to stay silent.
Most of that is not true and partial, do you have any proof or just "someone told me that..." ?
Salary is public and can be found freely on internet, you should be doing some research instead of propagating rumors.
ATCO's remain silent, because as some other jobs (Police etc...), they have judicial self-restraint and can be prosecuted.

mvg
Posts: 135
Joined: 08 Jun 2017, 04:30

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by mvg »

That contingency procedure requires the approval from Canac (for flights to be allowed to transit from Charleroi (or Liège) to France (or Germany). If they strike in Canac, the FIR is closed and they will not approve the use of that procedure. That would mean they are killing part of their strike by letting Charleroi or Liège operate "normally".
SR20 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 17:59
mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 17:08
That procedure is NOT applicable in case of strike. Only in case of equipment failure (CANAC failure)
Are you sure ? Taken from the Belgocontrol press room :

For each of the five airports where Belgocontrol manages the air traffic, the company elaborates procedures – a business continuity plan – so as to guarantee service provision in case of technical difficulties or other incidents. In 2016 such a plan entered into force at the airports of Charleroi and Liège. Up next is Ostend: the new procedure was introduced on 25 May 2017 in collaboration with British air traffic controller NATS.

Staff shortage is not considered as an incident ?

https://press.skeyes.be/belgocontrol-en ... -with-nats

mvg
Posts: 135
Joined: 08 Jun 2017, 04:30

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by mvg »

I was expecting that answer:

Can you be more precise about which part(s) isn't true?
- Don't you work 35 hours per week and get early leave almost every day before then end of your shift?
- Isn't any recall paid 200€ + the extra hours as compensation?
- Aren't 10 hours nights counted for 14 hours in Brussels and Liège?
- Don't radar controllers earn more than 5000€ after tax? (+ premies)
- Aren't the amounts given for the other premies correct?
- How many leave days do you have (including CD) per year?
- How many requested shifts do you get each month after the roster is published?
- tell us how you are checked annually (OCA). how many times can you fail?
- do you know any controllers who have lost their jobs in the last 30 years because of lack of competency?

Let's play it fair and publish you pay slip anonymously...
If it's all available to the public, there is nothing to be scared of...

Some people can think that such conditions and salary are deserved (personally I don't think so) but what is insane is to block a country when you benefit from conditions like no other job in this country and you dare to ask for more and behave like children.

@737MAX: my bullshit is the reality unfortunately... And I know what I am talking about...




Nevihta wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 19:20
mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 13:26
Those guys are abusing the system. Everyone knows that it was an organized manoeuvre: they all called sick on the same day!
And guess what? They are untouchable! If the company sends them a doctor at home to check if they are really sick, they simply have to tell him that if he/she puts them back to work then it will be his/her responsibility in case of incident. Which doctor would dare to do so? They have an almost unlimited amout of sick leave days, they don't even need to provide a sick note if it's only for one day.

And just a reminder of their very bad working conditions:
- 35 hours per week (in reality around 30 hours as they leave every day)
- any extra shift (recall) is paid around 200€ and they get the hours back
- nights last 10 hours (they hardly stay 9 hours at work and sleep half of them) and they get 4 extra hours for free (famous system called "10 is 14")
- no radar controller earns less than 5000€/month (netto) + premies
- end of the year allowance of more than 3000€ + holiday allowance of 2500€ + annual premie for the company performance (another joke) 2500€
- 30 days of leave each year
- duty roster of their choice around 28 days out of 30. If they don't get the shift they want they can swap freely with other colleagues
- no annual check (the ones they have is a joke -> they get the questions in advance and the practical is just signing a paper)
- they have huge responsibilities: seriously? Have you ever heard about one losing his/her job? In the worse case (very few over the last 30 years), they get an office job, paid as much, and they do...nothing

This is an absolutely unacceptable situation and they are right to strike :)

They will stay away from here because their case is simply undefendable. Many of them know it and prefer to stay silent.
Most of that is not true and partial, do you have any proof or just "someone told me that..." ?
Salary is public and can be found freely on internet, you should be doing some research instead of propagating rumors.
ATCO's remain silent, because as some other jobs (Police etc...), they have judicial self-restraint and can be prosecuted.

Boeing767copilot
Posts: 1306
Joined: 13 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by Boeing767copilot »

737MAX wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 20:17
convair wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:19
Yet, you seem to be backing their (in)action.
I’m just saying that many haters on this forum would think
differently if they were involved in this situation. What most people see is only their good pay and the bull**** « mvg » spreads on this forum. Reality is quite different.

It’s always easy to criticize, but it becomes plain stupid when you criticize something you don’t know.

I agree with the fact that they take action for their future. I disagree with the fact that an airspace can be closed this way.
Can we recommend a self-help and support group for this poor ATCs?
I really feel sorry for them.

Acid-drop
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by Acid-drop »

It’s always easy to criticize, but it becomes plain stupid when you criticize something you don’t know
This has been the sole argument of those defending them : "you don't understand".

We dont need to understand the reasons, we dont need to understand the excuses.
We stick to the facts without bias, without emotions.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

mvg
Posts: 135
Joined: 08 Jun 2017, 04:30

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by mvg »

Indeed they always come up with the same answers when someone criticizes them:
- you criticize something you don't know
- we are not allowed to talk to the press (in other words we can't explain you)
- we have a lot of responsibilities
No facts, no talk about the working hours, the salary, the privileges...


In order not the bring the debate into a war, let's be honest: everyone would love to have such working conditions and instead of criticizing we should just go and do that job to enjoy them as well.

But here I am not criticizing the conditions: good on them! It's about the power they have which they misuse, which they should be ashamed to use BECAUSE they have such a good life and put the life of people who really struggle into trouble with such strikes! This is the reason why I am explaining their working conditions. None of them will ever say everything. Imagine if people would know that they had to cancel their holidays because someone who works 35 hours per week and gets 5000€ (and well above) went on strike? They would be in trouble...

So it's time to play the game honestly and say what is going on in that company. And here is some more:
- management is scared of them. As soon as they pronounce the word "strike", they start to panic.
- the majority of the other employees from the company hate them: they know they have those privileges but everyone keeps silent because they get few of them too (premies for example).
- and let's look at an example (not all units work the same pattern) of a hard day of work of a morning shift:
Start at 07.00 and work till 08.00 (peak hour from 07.30)
Break from 08.00 till 09.00.
Work from 09.00 till 10.00 (no traffic)
Break from 10.00 til 10.30
Work from 10.30 till 11.00 (possibly medium traffic)
Lunch break from 11.00 till 12.00
Work from 12.00 till 13.00 (no traffic) and then go home

Total working hours: 3.30 (half executive (talking on the frequency) and half planning (sitting next to the executive controller and helping with coordinations -> nothing to do when no traffic as everything flies standard -> silent coordination)
Time spent at work: 6 hours (07.00 till 13.00)

Anybody to say that this doesn't exist?

telspace2005
Posts: 42
Joined: 11 Oct 2008, 12:47

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by telspace2005 »

I would do exactly as Reagan did on Auguste 5th, 1981.
No mercy.

PttU
Posts: 374
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by PttU »

mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 20:12
That contingency procedure requires the approval from Canac (for flights to be allowed to transit from Charleroi (or Liège) to France (or Germany). If they strike in Canac, the FIR is closed and they will not approve the use of that procedure. That would mean they are killing part of their strike by letting Charleroi or Liège operate "normally".
SR20 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 17:59
mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 17:08
That procedure is NOT applicable in case of strike. Only in case of equipment failure (CANAC failure)
Are you sure ? Taken from the Belgocontrol press room :

For each of the five airports where Belgocontrol manages the air traffic, the company elaborates procedures – a business continuity plan – so as to guarantee service provision in case of technical difficulties or other incidents. In 2016 such a plan entered into force at the airports of Charleroi and Liège. Up next is Ostend: the new procedure was introduced on 25 May 2017 in collaboration with British air traffic controller NATS.

Staff shortage is not considered as an incident ?

https://press.skeyes.be/belgocontrol-en ... -with-nats
So if this procedure isn't implemented it means it WAS a strike? I thought it were only unforseeable circumstances by too many ill people?

mvg
Posts: 135
Joined: 08 Jun 2017, 04:30

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by mvg »

Exactly
telspace2005 wrote:
04 Mar 2019, 07:16
I would do exactly as Reagan did on Auguste 5th, 1981.
No mercy.

mvg
Posts: 135
Joined: 08 Jun 2017, 04:30

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by mvg »

It was clearly a coordinated action, in other words a strike.
Have you ever seen a full team calling sick on the same day for the same shift? And nobody ready to do a recall for that shift while there is almost always people willing to come?

That's why the procedure wasn't implemented.

Same happened on the national strike the other day: for example Charleroi tower's team (at least enough of them) was at work but they closed Canac's airspace : the procedure could have worked and Charleroi could have operated via the corridor to France but that (of course) did not happen. Sure Charleroi airport management would love to know that :)

PttU wrote:
04 Mar 2019, 07:40
mvg wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 20:12
That contingency procedure requires the approval from Canac (for flights to be allowed to transit from Charleroi (or Liège) to France (or Germany). If they strike in Canac, the FIR is closed and they will not approve the use of that procedure. That would mean they are killing part of their strike by letting Charleroi or Liège operate "normally".
SR20 wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 17:59


Are you sure ? Taken from the Belgocontrol press room :

For each of the five airports where Belgocontrol manages the air traffic, the company elaborates procedures – a business continuity plan – so as to guarantee service provision in case of technical difficulties or other incidents. In 2016 such a plan entered into force at the airports of Charleroi and Liège. Up next is Ostend: the new procedure was introduced on 25 May 2017 in collaboration with British air traffic controller NATS.

Staff shortage is not considered as an incident ?

https://press.skeyes.be/belgocontrol-en ... -with-nats
So if this procedure isn't implemented it means it WAS a strike? I thought it were only unforseeable circumstances by too many ill people?

SR20
Posts: 495
Joined: 17 Apr 2017, 09:14

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by SR20 »

As the FIR closure is still officially due to staff shortage !

Airlines call for faster training of controllers to ease delays

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-euro ... QN0YH?il=0

mvg
Posts: 135
Joined: 08 Jun 2017, 04:30

Re: Belgian FIR quasi-closed during night 01-02/03

Post by mvg »

Of course the FIR closure was (officially) due to staff shortage. They (almost) all called sick and nobody accepted to be recalled to work that night.
The question is: why did everyone suddenly call sick on the same day for the same shift?
Because it was a coordinated action (not the first time it happens).

Airlines call for a fast training process for new controllers: more qualified controllers will NOT help in case of a coordinated action. If everyone calls sick and nobody picks up the phone to be recalled, you can have 500 controllers available, there will be nobody at work!
The problem in our country is that recalls are not mandatory and that they have never accepted to have stand-by shifts like pilots have. The conditions proposed for such shifts didn't suit them... Anyone guessing why? :)
The other problem is that they are untouchable: they can call sick whenever they want, they can come to work and not listen to their managers/not follow the rules (for example leaving before the end of a shift), they can have incidents but never blame or punish any of them, otherwise they are gonna be angry (=strike). It is impossible to fire anyone in that company! They are all "benoemd/nommes" as State employees.
Let's privatise and get a decent service with only people willing to work (some of them do)! It's possible to do way better even with less people!

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