Air Belgium in 2019

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Airbus330lover »

And ... back to CRL or once repaired, going to replace Hifly ?

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

FR24 shows they have dropped Easter Island from the journey, and flew from Lima streight to Tahiti (PPT Papeete). Probably staying just one night instead of four there, because their program continues to Cairns (Australia) on the 4th Nov.

The consequences of that ground incident at Lima are huge. Terribly huge. French legislation for package travel applies for the tour (voyages à forfait). I don't know that legislation in detail, but just like in Belgium, that legislation is based upon a European Directive from 2015. And that European compulsary guideline states a double indemnity for unrealized journeys:
1. passengers are entitled for a full refund of what they did not receive, no matter what happened;
2. when the cause is no force majeure (which is not the case when a ground worked acts careless and/or negligent), the passengers are also entitled to a moral indemnity.

100 passengers have paid between € 24.500 and € 53.000 p/p. The total indemnity that Safrans du Monde will have to pay, will be likewise huge. And quite obviously, Safrans du Monde will hold the air operator responsible. And then, HiFly will also send an invoice. Hence my initial remark: I hope for Air Belgium they can claim from an insurer.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

OO-ABB has left Lima, heading westbound for them (Tahiti/Australia):
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... b#22b78b86

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Passenger wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 09:06
OO-ABB has left Lima, heading westbound for them (Tahiti/Australia):
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... b#22b78b86
...and the HiFly A332 CS-TQP is heading back home:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... p#22b85035
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/cs-tqp

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by sn26567 »

Passenger wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 19:37
...and the HiFly A332 CS-TQP is heading back home:
... with a night stop in Panama (don't forget the papers :mrgreen: )
André
ex Sabena #26567

TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by TLspotting »

Yup OO-ABB is back after 6 days of grounding.
Hi. I'm T., spotter and aviation geek. Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Jetter
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Jetter »

Passenger wrote:
03 Nov 2019, 22:56
FR24 shows they have dropped Easter Island from the journey, and flew from Lima streight to Tahiti (PPT Papeete). Probably staying just one night instead of four there, because their program continues to Cairns (Australia) on the 4th Nov.

The consequences of that ground incident at Lima are huge. Terribly huge. French legislation for package travel applies for the tour (voyages à forfait). I don't know that legislation in detail, but just like in Belgium, that legislation is based upon a European Directive from 2015. And that European compulsary guideline states a double indemnity for unrealized journeys:
1. passengers are entitled for a full refund of what they did not receive, no matter what happened;
2. when the cause is no force majeure (which is not the case when a ground worked acts careless and/or negligent), the passengers are also entitled to a moral indemnity.

100 passengers have paid between € 24.500 and € 53.000 p/p. The total indemnity that Safrans du Monde will have to pay, will be likewise huge. And quite obviously, Safrans du Monde will hold the air operator responsible. And then, HiFly will also send an invoice. Hence my initial remark: I hope for Air Belgium they can claim from an insurer.
Horrible for the passengers that payed so much money for the journey of a lifetime. Safrans du Monde isn't a big touroperator that can offset this risk easily. Depending on the contract between SdM and AB it's likely this will make either of them bankrupt if they don't have an insurance on very generous terms.

Desert Rat
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Desert Rat »

To summarize your BS. A cargo loader hits an A/C, making the airline or the travel agent go bankrupt!
Am I right?

Desert Rat
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Desert Rat »

Poiu wrote:
02 Nov 2019, 13:42
Desert Rat wrote:
02 Nov 2019, 13:33
It should be a structure damage
You probably mean it could be structural damage.
No, it "should"be, since NDT inspector's are linked to structure damages. The level of certainty is higher than "could", as it is a bit more than an assumption.
🙄🙄🙄

Jetter
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Jetter »

Desert Rat wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 05:07
To summarize your BS. A cargo loader hits an A/C, making the airline or the travel agent go bankrupt!
Am I right?
If they don't get compensated and don't have a very good insurance coverage the answer is yes. If you disagree, please elaborate instead of your nonsensical foul language.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Desert Rat wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 05:07
To summarize your BS. A cargo loader hits an A/C, making the airline or the travel agent go bankrupt!
Am I right?
It's not BS. It's legislation.It's dura lex sed lex. The new travel package legislation is what it is: severe customer protection. Solution: what Jetter told: a good insurance, also by subcontractors.

The chances that the passengers involved know this by now, is 100%. Hence I don't aggrevate it for Air Belgium when I quote the relevant legislation from France:
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/eli/ordo ... R/jo/texte
Section 3 – “Responsabilité civile professionnelle”
« Art. L. 211-16.-I.-Le professionnel qui vend un forfait touristique mentionné au 1° du I de l'article L. 211-1 est responsable de plein droit de l'exécution des services prévus par ce contrat, que ces services soient exécutés par lui-même ou par d'autres prestataires de services de voyage, sans préjudice de son droit de recours contre ceux-ci.
« Le professionnel qui vend un service de voyage mentionné au 2° du I de l'article L. 211-1 est responsable de plein droit de l'exécution du service prévu par ce contrat, sans préjudice de son droit de recours contre le prestataire de service.
« Toutefois le professionnel peut s'exonérer de tout ou partie de sa responsabilité en apportant la preuve que le dommage est imputable soit au voyageur, soit à un tiers étranger à la fourniture des services de voyage compris dans le contrat et revêt un caractère imprévisible ou inévitable, soit à des circonstances exceptionnelles et inévitables.
« Lorsqu'un organisateur ou un détaillant verse des dommages et intérêts, accorde une réduction de prix ou s'acquitte des autres obligations qui lui incombent, il peut demander réparation à tout tiers ayant contribué au fait à l'origine de l'indemnisation, de la réduction de prix ou d'autres obligations.

« V.-Lorsqu'une part importante des services de voyage ne peut être fournie comme prévu dans le contrat, l'organisateur ou le détaillant propose, sans supplément de prix pour le voyageur, d'autres prestations appropriées, si possible de qualité égale ou supérieure à ceux spécifiés dans le contrat, pour la continuation du contrat, y compris lorsque le retour du voyageur à son lieu de départ n'est pas fourni comme convenu.
« Lorsque les autres prestations proposées donnent lieu à un voyage ou séjour de qualité inférieure à celle spécifiée dans le contrat, l'organisateur ou le détaillant octroie au voyageur une réduction de prix appropriée.
« Le voyageur ne peut refuser les autres prestations proposées que si elles ne sont pas comparables à ce qui avait été prévu dans le contrat ou si la réduction de prix octroyée n'est pas appropriée.

« VI.-Lorsqu'une non-conformité perturbe considérablement l'exécution d'un voyage ou séjour et que l'organisateur ou le détaillant n'y remédie pas dans un délai raisonnable fixé par le voyageur, ce dernier peut résoudre le contrat sans payer de frais de résolution et demander, le cas échéant, conformément à l'article L. 211-17, une réduction de prix et en cas de dommage distinct des dommages et intérêts.
« S'il s'avère impossible de proposer d'autres prestations ou si le voyageur refuse les autres prestations proposées conformément au troisième alinéa du V, le voyageur a droit, s'il y a lieu, à une réduction de prix et, en cas de dommage distinct, à des dommages et intérêts conformément à l'article L. 211-17, sans résolution du contrat....
To compare the above with the similar legislation in Belgium:
Art. 47. De organisator kent een prijsvermindering of een schadevergoeding toe aan de reiziger overeenkomstig de bepalingen van deze afdeling.
Art. 48. De reiziger heeft recht op een passende prijsvermindering voor iedere periode waarin er sprake was van non-conformiteit van de verleende diensten, tenzij de organisator bewijst dat de non-conformiteit aan de reiziger te wijten is.
Art. 49. De reiziger heeft recht op passende schadevergoeding van de organisator voor alle schade die hij oploopt als gevolg van non-conformiteit. De schadevergoeding wordt zonder onnodige vertraging uitbetaald.
Art. 50. De reiziger heeft geen recht op schadevergoeding, indien de organisator aantoont dat de non-conformiteit te wijten is aan:
1° de reiziger;
2° een derde die niet bij de uitvoering van de in de pakketreisovereenkomst begrepen reisdiensten is betrokken, en de non-conformiteit niet kon worden voorzien of voorkomen, of
3° onvermijdbare en buitengewone omstandigheden.
Thus:
1. price reduction when a travel package is not delivered as promised, and when the traveller himself is not the cause.
2. additional compensation, unless the non-delivery was caused by the traveller, by a non-contracted third party (example strike by Customs), or caused by unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances (example bird strike, engine failure).

convair
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by convair »

737MAX wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 10:00
People here really think AB/Safran didn't take an AOG scenario into account during their world tour trip and risk to go bankrupt for this. Oh boy...
People here don't necessarily think that; they just wonder...

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

737MAX wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 10:00
Quite funny to read, actually. People here really think AB/Safran didn't take an AOG scenario into account during their world tour trip and risk to go bankrupt for this. Oh boy...
Funny to see that some people think that other people think that ABB and Safran had no AOG scenario.

Fact is that the flight schedule of CS-TQP suggests that the AOG backup plan wasn't that good. The backup aircraft continued the tour with 4 days delay (I think it was 3 days and 20 hours).

Regarding the consequences of the AOG: travel legislation applies, and the consequences are exactly what I wrote before: 100 passengers must be refunded ànd compensated for getting no Easter Island, no relaxing Tahiti beach holiday, no Bora Bora. Hence I said three times that it's important for ABB that an insurer can step in.

- - -

Maybe off topic, but airlines and touroperators sometimes do take risks with insurances. This is what Andrea Leadsom, Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, told the British Parliamant yesterday 6th Nov: "...I'm sorry to have to inform the House, Mr Speaker, that the official receiver has recently brought to my attention further impacts of Thomas Cook's insolvency which I wish to share with the House today. There is an important outstanding matter relating to personal injury claims against Thomas Cook companies impacting customers who have suffered life changing injuries, illness, or even loss of life while on Thomas Cook holidays. Thomas Cook only took out insurance cover for the very largest personal injury claims. For agreed claims below this figure up to a high aggregate amount, they decided to self ensure through a provision in their accounts."... End of quote in the UK Parliament.

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by sn26567 »

To bring an end to this story, I was contacted by Niky Terzakis, CEO of Air Belgium. There is absolutely no risk of bankruptcy of Air Belgium as a consequence of the ground incident in Lima. For the rest, that trip is a private flight and there is nothing to tell which concerns the public.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Duke
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Duke »

sn26567 wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 11:57
I was contacted by Niky Terzakis, CEO of Air Belgium.
Interesting to see that Mr. Terzakis reads this forum... Or at least has an assistant informing him about it...
Good work, luchtzak!!

Regards,

Duke

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b.lufthansa
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by b.lufthansa »

737MAX wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 12:49
Duke wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 12:22
sn26567 wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 11:57
I was contacted by Niky Terzakis, CEO of Air Belgium.
Interesting to see that Mr. Terzakis reads this forum... Or at least has an assistant informing him about it...
Good work, luchtzak!!

Regards,

Duke
I don't want to break your joy, but I'm not really sure Mr Terzakis or his team has a happy/proud face when he reads what's being discussed here :?
Every Belgian airline has had his shit load of comments on this forum, people should also take into account that they quickly forget about the good things they wrote on Air Belgium and other airlines. Did Air Belgium already take a look at Facebook? Every time Brussels Airlines adds a story on Facebook, several people comment on that post, and not always in a positive way to say the least.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote:
06 Nov 2019, 11:57
To bring an end to this story, I was contacted by Niky Terzakis, CEO of Air Belgium. There is absolutely no risk of bankruptcy of Air Belgium as a consequence of the ground incident in Lima. For the rest, that trip is a private flight and there is nothing to tell which concerns the public.
Of course there is no risk for bankruptcy as a consequence of this one ground incident in Lima. But fact remains that the new travel legislation can lead to a multi million claim when large events like this Safrans World Tour would utterly fail.

Nothing to tell which concerns the public? Well, that is exactly what social media and forums are about: to tell about things that don't concern us but that have happened - to share views - to report the good, the bad and the ugly. Just like the ongoing Brussels Airlines Reboot issue: that also doens't concern the public. And contrary to ABB, it's within a company without taxpayers as shareholders. But yet, it's discussed here by non-employees as if they are about to loose their job.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Nothing to concern the public...
If we cheer for their start up, their livery, their support flights, their startup flights for a good cause.. luchtzak is okay...
If people are concerned about an eventual bad cause we must keep silent ????
Luchtzak under censorship ?
A CEO that only knows the way to social media when things are okay ?
Guess this feels as a totally wrong reaction from a CEO of this is real... A disgrace really...

Better to share some real info about if it doesn't hurt ;)
Would be given a more serious reply and supporting the avgeeks ..
Well this sounds more like a troubled CEO when there is nothing much to say...

CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781
New types planned : E140

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Ozzie1969
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Ozzie1969 »

Where is Baghdad Bob when you need him ?

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by sn26567 »

Where is the problem? An Air Belgium aircraft was grounded in Lima for 4 days by a ground incident caused by a loading truck, an incident out of the responsibility of the airline. Air Belgium provided a replacement aircraft, its own aircraft was repaired by a Sabena Aerospace team despatched to Lima and resumed operations shortly thereafter for a "private" flight, which thus does not concern the public at large.

How the passengers will be indemnified for the missing part of their trip is not our problem, only an issue for insurance companies. Admittedly, it would be interesting to know the end of the story, but the details are irrelevant. For me, the case is closed!
André
ex Sabena #26567

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