Brussels Airlines in 2019

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brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by brusselsairlinesfan » 12 May 2019, 00:31

Conti764 wrote:
11 May 2019, 19:33
sn26567 wrote:
11 May 2019, 18:17
When the Bruegel livery was revealed, SN CEO Christina Foerster made a speech in which she insisted on Brussels Airlines representing the spirit of Belgium and promoting it abroad. And she really seemed to believe in the words she was saying. Was it just a circumstantial speech or is she a true believer in Belgian values?

I think that, like many Germans before her (like former chief marketing officer Lars Redeligx) she has caught the Belgian virus. But she reports to Thorsten Dirks, himself a subordinate of Carsten Spohr. She has not free hands....
Christina Foerster is a professional. She knows what to say, when to say it and, more importantly, how to say it.
Exactly... to me, her mission is to (dis)integrate SN into EW. The last « réal » SN CEO to me was Bernard GUSTIN who left because he was opposed to this doomed to fail strategy...

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Ansett » 12 May 2019, 16:56

Quoting brusselsairlinesfan :
Exactly... to me, her mission is to (dis)integrate SN into EW. The last « réal » SN CEO to me was Bernard GUSTIN who left because he was opposed to this doomed to fail strategy...
[/quote]

I seem to remember that Gustin and de Raeymaeker got sacked allegedly because of SN's poor performance.

So, time to sack Carsten Spohr, because of the very poor performance of his baby, EW ?

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Ansett » 12 May 2019, 17:09

I don't want to sound like a prophet of doom, but imho, no decision has yet been made on what will happen to the flights (aircraft and brand) to Africa, because if CS does not manage to get EW (including SN's European operations) out of the red, he will also integrate Brussels Airlines (brand) and Africa flights into EW to reduce EW losses or even to be able to claim that EW in now profitable.
To be honest and complete, there was a time when four or five long-haul SN aircraft kept some forty aircraft flying.
Anyway, everthing that is happening was announced.
The first ones responsible for this situation are SN's (Belgian) sharholders who put some money on the table to help ED launch a new Belgian airline, but were never prepared to invest enough in the airline to make it a real success (for instance, investing in brand new aircraft which would reduce operational costs). Don't conclude from this that I approve what LH/CS are doing, but it's unfortunately their right.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by RoMax » 12 May 2019, 17:55

Ansett wrote:
12 May 2019, 17:09
I don't want to sound like a prophet of doom, but imho, no decision has yet been made on what will happen to the flights (aircraft and brand) to Africa, because if CS does not manage to get EW (including SN's European operations) out of the red, he will also integrate Brussels Airlines (brand) and Africa flights into EW to reduce EW losses or even to be able to claim that EW in now profitable.
What does that even mean? xp The EW consolidated figures already include ALL figures of al divisions the compose Eurowings Group, including all of Brussels Airlines, irrespective of brand.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Passenger » 12 May 2019, 19:19

brusselsairlinesfan wrote:
12 May 2019, 00:31
Conti764 wrote:
11 May 2019, 19:33
Christina Foerster is a professional. She knows what to say, when to say it and, more importantly, how to say it.
Exactly... to me, her mission is to (dis)integrate SN into EW.
Will they integrate into or disintegrate from? Just let us know once you have made up your mind please.

Me thinks integration is 100% obvious, business wise. After all, Lufthansa has bought an airline that isn't very profitable now, but could be profitable when some double positions are cut. Why would Lufthansa need two persons (one for SN, one for EW) if one person can do the job?

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Conti764 » 12 May 2019, 23:39

Passenger wrote:
12 May 2019, 19:19
brusselsairlinesfan wrote:
12 May 2019, 00:31
Conti764 wrote:
11 May 2019, 19:33
Christina Foerster is a professional. She knows what to say, when to say it and, more importantly, how to say it.
Exactly... to me, her mission is to (dis)integrate SN into EW.
Will they integrate into or disintegrate from? Just let us know once you have made up your mind please.

Me thinks integration is 100% obvious, business wise. After all, Lufthansa has bought an airline that isn't very profitable now, but could be profitable when some double positions are cut. Why would Lufthansa need two persons (one for SN, one for EW) if one person can do the job?
Maybe SN wasn't very profitable, but EW isn't profitable at all. And in that light it's unfair that SN goes down the drain together with EW if the latter goes belly up or CS is forced to axe his pet project.

Belgium may not be Switzerland, but Brussels isn't a third world city either nor is BRU a shitty third tier airport. Give SN the incentives to grow and they'll grow into stable profitability. Lending them money to cover for losses but not helping them acquire more fuel efficient aircraft for 9-10 years and then stating they're not making enough money is cynical.

Maybe Mayrhuber had other (better) plans with SN back in 2009, but Spohr only took over SN (for a bargain) to fence off its backyard, not allowing BRU to grow so they wouldn't steal away (some) pax from LHG hubs. Have SN flying around to some African cities but don't let BRU grow into a viable *A-hub and reduce the airport to an extra large CRL airort, a lowcost airport with only point to point-flying.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Boavida » 13 May 2019, 12:21

^^ Hear, hear! Excellent analysis of the current situation.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Jetter » 13 May 2019, 16:26

Conti764 wrote:
12 May 2019, 23:39
Belgium may not be Switzerland, but Brussels isn't a third world city
Brussels-North railway station makes Brussels look like a third world city though. :cry:

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sn26567 » 13 May 2019, 18:25

Jetter wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:26
Conti764 wrote:
12 May 2019, 23:39
Belgium may not be Switzerland, but Brussels isn't a third world city
Brussels-North railway station makes Brussels look like a third world city though. :cry:
How many planes land at Brussels North? ;)
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Passenger » 13 May 2019, 23:20

Conti764 wrote:
12 May 2019, 23:39
Maybe SN wasn't very profitable, but EW isn't profitable at all. And in that light it's unfair that SN goes down the drain together with EW if the latter goes belly up or CS is forced to axe his pet project.
No need to add “maybe”, when you have seen their annual account.

Conti764 wrote:
12 May 2019, 23:39
Give SN the incentives to grow and they'll grow into stable profitability. Lending them money to cover for losses but not helping them acquire more fuel efficient aircraft for 9-10 years and then stating they're not making enough money is cynical.
Why has a German company to be that Belgian-chauvinistic, when the Belgians themselves rejected a plea from one their captains of industry?

Conti764 wrote:
12 May 2019, 23:39
Maybe Mayrhuber had other (better) plans with SN back in 2009, but Spohr only took over SN (for a bargain) to fence off its backyard, not allowing BRU to grow so they wouldn't steal away (some) pax from LHG hubs. Have SN flying around to some African cities but don't let BRU grow into a viable *A-hub and reduce the airport to an extra large CRL airport, a lowcost airport with only point to point flying.
Another one of those analysis, based upon “Spohr thinks, Spohr intends, Spohr wants, Spohr plans”.
Facts please. It’s not because a lot of SN-LH-bashers repeat and confirm your assumptions, that they are true.

Brussels Airlines is allowed to open any new route, when they think that there will be enough traffic and yield. Lufthansa owns Brussels Airlines, so when Brussels Airlines makes profit, that's in the interest of Lufthansa too. But when Brussels Airlines fills an A332 to Johannesburg with just 100 pax, it's better for Lufthansa that just 10% of those 100 pax fly LH via FRA.

Flanker3
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Flanker3 » 14 May 2019, 05:16

The unimaginable has happened.
Not. I and others have been warning for a decade about this, but the likes of Passenger were running the PR for the German team.

Brussels Airlines is being merged into EW.
The question is, what will happen when LH decides to dump EW. Because EW has never been profitable and may go from disaster to worse, resulting in its shutdown or serious downsizing.
I don't see the BRU station or "base" surviving with more than 20 aircraft within 3 years.

Good luck to the SN staff.
Does anyone know if Tolipanebas is still flying for SN? I would like to stick it to him.

TLspotting
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by TLspotting » 14 May 2019, 07:56

For anybody who hasn't read yet :

All future short and medium haul aircraft are now going to wear Eurowings livery.
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... gs-livery/
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Stij » 14 May 2019, 08:42

I've spent the wekend in Düsseldorf and gave it a thought.

1. It's not about the money, it's about a hub or not.
Düsseldorf is the second richest large city in Germany, after Frankfurt and is EW's largest base. When Lufthansa took over SN, BRU wasn't a real hub... FRA, MUC, ZRH and VIE were / are real hubs.

2. Independent doesn't work.
The Belgian investors were right not to put their money in SN Brussels Airlines. There's no future as an independent carrier. Even KL sold their sole to AF and are now afraid.
If SN Brussels would have stayed independent, it would have been bankrupt by now or have stayed very niche.
Maybe OneWorld could have been better, but that's something we'll never know (did they even ever made a bid).

3. Brussels Airlines grew… at least short haul.
The fleet this summer will be 22 A319 and 17 A320.

4. When EW fails… I presume internally they will keep track base per base. and if the BRU operations are profitable, they won't axe them. They'll keep them. And if it's very profitable (which it isn't) they'll let it even grow.

5. I stay convinced the future of aviation in Europe follows the US market and so in the end even the Eurowings will disappear and will become Lufthansa. That will happen when Eurowings will take over LH's short haul operations.

6. I think we react emotionally because we feel downgraded to Eurowings. If we would have been absorbed into Lufthansa it wouldn't have felt that bad.

7. Why are we in this situation? Because of the actions of politicians (the management) and unions in the 70's and the 80's.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sean1982 » 14 May 2019, 10:12

Flanker3 wrote:
14 May 2019, 05:16

Good luck to the SN staff.
Does anyone know if Tolipanebas is still flying for SN? I would like to stick it to him.
Ask passenger, he knows him very well I heard.

Sad news, but predictable, at least for the realists (otherwise known as “bashers”)

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Poiu » 14 May 2019, 10:59

Stij wrote:
14 May 2019, 08:42
I've spent the wekend in Düsseldorf and gave it a thought.

1. It's not about the money, it's about a hub or not.
Düsseldorf is the second richest large city in Germany, after Frankfurt and is EW's largest base. When Lufthansa took over SN, BRU wasn't a real hub
It’s about money and nothing else!
EW crew are the worst paid in Europe and probably even worldwide! LH wants to reduce their labour cost.
(Just as Air France with Hop and Transavia or BA with Vueling)

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Stij » 14 May 2019, 11:02

Poiu wrote:
14 May 2019, 10:59
Stij wrote:
14 May 2019, 08:42
1. It's not about the money, it's about a hub or not.
It’s about money and nothing else!
Of course I meant if the area was rich or not...

Stij

JustPlanes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by JustPlanes » 14 May 2019, 11:39

Correct me if I'm wrong, SN isn't losing money right... they are making some.
EW is losing a shit load of money...
So now SN becomes EW... that certainly doesn't help SN!
Smells very much like when Swissair used Sabena to buy tons of planes cheaper..Planes Sabena didn't need! and we know the results there...

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Jetter » 14 May 2019, 12:05

What happened to the longhaul center of excellence? Is it established yet, and where is it located if so? At BRU?

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Poiu » 14 May 2019, 12:24

JustPlanes wrote:
14 May 2019, 11:39
Correct me if I'm wrong, SN isn't losing money right... they are making some.
No, they are losing money, they hope to become profitable later this year, but for the moment they aren’t.
Over the whole of their existence they have only been marginalised profitable a couple of years, mainly due to hidden state aid and the sale of valuable slots they bought from Sabena, they day before the bankruptcy, for 1€.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Inquirer » 14 May 2019, 13:37

Stij wrote:
14 May 2019, 08:42
I've spent the wekend in Düsseldorf and gave it a thought.

1. It's not about the money, it's about a hub or not.
Düsseldorf is the second richest large city in Germany, after Frankfurt and is EW's largest base. When Lufthansa took over SN, BRU wasn't a real hub... FRA, MUC, ZRH and VIE were / are real hubs.

2. Independent doesn't work.
The Belgian investors were right not to put their money in SN Brussels Airlines. There's no future as an independent carrier. Even KL sold their sole to AF and are now afraid.
If SN Brussels would have stayed independent, it would have been bankrupt by now or have stayed very niche.
Maybe OneWorld could have been better, but that's something we'll never know (did they even ever made a bid).

3. Brussels Airlines grew… at least short haul.
The fleet this summer will be 22 A319 and 17 A320.

4. When EW fails… I presume internally they will keep track base per base. and if the BRU operations are profitable, they won't axe them. They'll keep them. And if it's very profitable (which it isn't) they'll let it even grow.

5. I stay convinced the future of aviation in Europe follows the US market and so in the end even the Eurowings will disappear and will become Lufthansa. That will happen when Eurowings will take over LH's short haul operations.

6. I think we react emotionally because we feel downgraded to Eurowings. If we would have been absorbed into Lufthansa it wouldn't have felt that bad.
As I've said before, no idea why people react so emotionally about a name or a lick of paint on a plane?
Some see airlines as football teams they can only supporter for it if it's playing in the right colours.
Reality is, aviation is just business really. :roll:

Anyway, pleased to see the plan is indeed pretty much as I've said it should be, already some years ago: split the commercial activities at Brussels in 2 and have the European flights done under the generic Eurowings brand: I don't doubt for a minute this will be rolled over to other brands of the group in future too and rightfully so: it just makes sense to take full benefit of scale here!

Having for instance Austrian run only a handful of flights to Vienna and spend tons on advertising in say the Madrid area to fill their plane is just insane: far better to have it under the Eurowings name too and have Eurowings run an add in that Madrid area to promote all of 'their' flights to BRU, VIE etc on top of all the other ones they run already: that way it's a true competitor to Iberia on a commerical front.

As to Eurowings itself, I'd expect them to move even more upscale than they already have over the past 18 months to make all of this possible. My bet: we'll soon see them introduce a C class on Europe too, and an explosion in transfer arrangements like codeshares, rerouting options, etc. They've come a long way from being just a point-to-point no frill airline already, believe me. They are as much 'hybrid' as B.air is, although they seem to be completely allergic to be called that way, but I fly them regularly intra-Germany and there's hardly any meaningful difference to what Lufthansa still did just 5 years ago on these routes or what brussels airlines is doing right now, but on a much bigger and thus far more cost efficient scale.
And that's how it should be.

I see Brussels Airlines as a sort of Air Dolomiti on a larger scale: operating some highly important flights and some planes on their own under their own brand still, but operating most of them on behalf of the group and in their generic colours. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Nice little airline, btw!
Always pleased to see whenever the BRU-MUC is operated by Air Dolomiti even!
I'm sure Lufthansa will be able to generate extra savings by having B.Air fly for instance BRU-HAM-MUC-TXL-BRU over having the Brussels plane come back to BRU half empty around noon like they now have to do all too often: just saying schedules like these help to keep loads up throughout the day, something which is only possible if you operate as one brand of course. Unless you can support a massive network like in FRA and you can feed 24 hours a day, it is most likely very difficult to justify certain return flights, even though you have to keep the outbound flight for connectivity in place and vice versa…. one brand solves all of that.

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