Brussels Airlines in 2019

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nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by nordikcam »

Ansett wrote: 04 Aug 2019, 13:35 The articles in LaLIbre and especially in De Tijd are "komkommertijd" articles. Newspapers have less news to publish, so they fill their pages with a lot of blabla.
The article in De Tijd has practically no substance. OK, the change of livery of a plane would cost 60,000 euros (money that can be spent more usefully elsewhere). Very important news :? , but always good to know.
That LH will not forever put money into SN (without details) is, to me, just an indication that LH/CS will sell SN for a price equivalent of the purchase price + investments made, so that the whole operation is close to zero for LH, and that's probably a price which might attract potential investors, of course not NT :lol: , but an airline or airline group which would not consider SN as a stepson, a ballast it did not want from day 1 that a CEO took office.
The ambiguity of things. On one side SN would be worth nothing and could be sold to the first group that would pass through Brussels, on the other hand we would not let go of a company that represents 40% of shares in an airport rather well located in Western Europe and capacity to develop, a real african exxperience. What is not ambiguous is that LH made a big mistake with EW and a second by associating SN and EW. What is not ambiguous is that they seem to have realized it! To see the project at the beginning of October. To sell ?

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Lufthansa will not / will never sell Brussels Airlines. Not only because Brussels Airlines has 40% market share at BRU, but because SN allows LH to cash in on two routes: FRA and MUC.

Take a calculator: 65 weekly flights to FRA and 50 weekly flights to MUC. Multiply it by the number of passengers and the bonus that LH earns because of high prices, thanks to lack of competition.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Ansett wrote: 04 Aug 2019, 19:59 Imho, totally wrong ! I don't have any official figures, but out of experience I can say that 95 % of LH pax between BRU-FRA-BRU are connecting pax (mainly at FRA).
Totally wrong! Only during weekends, there are -sometimes- more transfer pax. But 95%? No way! And those connecting pax are also very good business for LH because many of them fly long haul. And sometimes long haul Business Class.
Ansett wrote: 04 Aug 2019, 19:59 Not having SN would not change a single thing on this route which has competition from the much more comfortable and relaxing German IC trains for PTP travel.
Wrong again. The relevant factor is not that SN abstains from BRU-FRA-BRU. The relevant factor is that SN is the lead carrier at BRU, thus not leaving a market share for competitors on FRA-BRU-FRA. I'm not going into detail there - we've done that a few months ago.
Ansett wrote: 04 Aug 2019, 19:59 And my gut feeling is that LH/CS don't give a damn about a few French-speaking destinations in Western and Central Africa whose profitability is very high at the moment, indeed, but for how long ? since there is increasing competition. LH/CS will want to concentrate on their core business (which does not include Western and Central Africa).
Wrong again. The Lufthansa Group knows that Lufthansa can't beat Brussels Airlines' experience in Africa, hence the group leaves that market share for Brussels Airlines. And at the end of the day, their profit comes to the group too.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Wrong again. The Lufthansa Group knows that Lufthansa can't beat Brussels Airlines' experience in Africa, hence the group leaves that market share for Brussels Airlines. And at the end of the day, their profit comes to the group too.
If they want a presence in Africa, they can enhance their partnership with Ethiopian Airlines, for East and Central Africa. They is already a strong partnership between Lufthansa and Ethiopian Airlines. Some Ethiopian Airlines flights, in Africa are operated in code share with Lufhansa. They are up to 2 flights a day between Frankfurt and Addis Ababa. A daily service operated by Ethiopian and a 5 weekly service operated by Lufthansa.

Ethiopian Airlines has also code share agreement with Austrian Airlines

For West Africa, there is TAP Air Portugal. They serve Senegal, Ghana, Bissau Guinea, Sao Tome, Ivory Coast, Guinea Conakry, Cabo Verde, Togo and they planned to serve Mauritania, in 2018. I won't be suprised, if they add more destinations in West Africa, such as Mali

I remmember that Brussels Airlines ceased its code share deals with Ethiopian Airlines, few years ago

ezis_bis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by ezis_bis »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 10:51 If they want a presence in Africa, they can enhance their partnership with Ethiopian Airlines, for East and Central Africa. They is already a strong partnership between Lufthansa and Ethiopian Airlines. Some Ethiopian Airlines flights, in Africa are operated in code share with Lufhansa. They are up to 2 flights a day between Frankfurt and Addis Ababa. A daily service operated by Ethiopian and a 5 weekly service operated by Lufthansa.
I'm very sorry to say this, but Addis Abeba Airport and Ethiopian Airlines Customer Service are absolutely horrendous. The airport more than the the Customer Service. If LH is going to send all its Africa passenger through ADD, I'd swith to Air France or KLM or just try someone new.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sn26567 »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 10:51 I remember that Brussels Airlines ceased its codeshare deals with Ethiopian Airlines, a few years ago
... because Ethiopian was undercutting Brussels Airlines on common destinations!
André
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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Conti764 »

LH works closely with ET... I wonder why. Having SN do the Africa flying strengthens one of the currently weaker members of the group and keeps all revenue in house.

I have always said LH made a mistake bringing SN under EW-umbrella and was very negative about any plans they had with SN. But especially with SN becoming a part of the network airlines LH gains nothing from a hostile aproach towards SN, on the contrary.

So I hope the LH Group will focus on SN for Africa, bringing in pax and revenue for the underperforming airline and other *A-members strengthening BRU as a *A-hub, keeping off any non-alliance competition.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by nordikcam »

ezis_bis wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 11:17
rwandan-flyer wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 10:51 If they want a presence in Africa, they can enhance their partnership with Ethiopian Airlines, for East and Central Africa. They is already a strong partnership between Lufthansa and Ethiopian Airlines. Some Ethiopian Airlines flights, in Africa are operated in code share with Lufhansa. They are up to 2 flights a day between Frankfurt and Addis Ababa. A daily service operated by Ethiopian and a 5 weekly service operated by Lufthansa.
I'm very sorry to say this, but Addis Abeba Airport and Ethiopian Airlines Customer Service are absolutely horrendous. The airport more than the the Customer Service. If LH is going to send all its Africa passenger through ADD, I'd swith to Air France or KLM or just try someone new.
:-) I completely agree ! I never understood that travelers transit through ADD ... as for the Service "Public Relations", there would be one?

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Jetter »

nordikcam wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 16:40! I never understood that travelers transit through ADD
Well, someone traveling from/to Africa might have different expectations than what we’re used to in Europe. That it is the poorest continent reflects on all kinds of services.

PttU
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by PttU »

Jetter wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 17:39
nordikcam wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 16:40! I never understood that travelers transit through ADD
Well, someone traveling from/to Africa might have different expectations than what we’re used to in Europe. That it is the poorest continent reflects on all kinds of services.
"I never understood that travelers fly LCC."
Sometimes people buy their travel-packages based on price: not knowing, or not knowing what it means to transfer at ADD.
And for some destinations (I remember an offer for a trip to NOS (FMNN)), it's not even that bad: the destination is worse, or other routings have more stops...

b720
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by b720 »

Jetter wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 17:39
nordikcam wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 16:40! I never understood that travelers transit through ADD
Well, someone traveling from/to Africa might have different expectations than what we’re used to in Europe. That it is the poorest continent reflects on all kinds of services.
Service on ET intra-africa is equal if not better than most European airlines intr-Europe.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by rwandan-flyer »

LH works closely with ET... I wonder why. Having SN do the Africa flying strengthens one of the currently weaker members of the group and keeps all revenue in house.
Partnership between Lufthansa and Ethiopian Airlines started in 1990s, manly based on aircraft maintenance. I suppose that Lufthansa wanted to have another big African airlines, in Star Alliance (SAA joined Star Alliance, in 2004, Egyptair in 2008).

SkyTeam is the number one, with the Air France -KLM - Kenya Airways JV. I don't think that the natiolanisation of Kenya Airways will be a big impact on the JV. There is also Oneworld, with the arrival of Royal Air Maroc. RAM, Qatar Airways and Comair will bring more capacity to Africa, for Oneworld. Iberia has put its IB code on some Qatar Airways services to East Africa. You can do a Chicago-Madrid-Doha-Kigali-Doha-Chicago (Iberia and Qatar Airways). Same thing with RAM: Washington-Casablanca-Doha-Kigali-Doha-Washington (RAM & Qatar Airways)

If LH Group wants to be the first, they will probably need to have more air services to Africa, add more code share flights. SN could be the biggest airlines for Africa ops at LH Group, but i won't be suprised if Lufthansa or Swiss want to open 2 or 3 destinations, in Africa.

Even Air France is struggling. They are still profitable in Africa, but they lost money. It's not a suprise that they send their last brand new aircraft to Africa (B787 & A350) or their aircraft with the last retrofit Air France KLM increasingly challenged in the African skies by companies from Africa and the Middle East 2018 is a difficult year for Air France KLM in Africa. While the continent concentrates 35 of the 129 long-haul routes of the group, it was only third in the contribution to revenues, with a turnover of 2.10 billion euros at September 30, 2018. https://www.agenceecofin.com/entreprise ... yen-orient

Ben Smith has said he wanted to make a major shake up in Africa, for Air France. Reduce the number of tag service.Probably use some aircraft such as A321LR enabling to add more flights on some destinations, where the B777 or A330 is too big. Djibouti is served only 1 time a week by AF, while Tutkish Airlines operates a daily service and Qatar Airways 7 flights a week (some days they are 2 flights in the day)

Total population of Africa is over 1 billion. Potential is huge, if States do some major reforms to develop the Continent, the competition between Airlines will be more stiff. LH Group has to avoid to be at the bottom of the league table.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Jetter »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 19:24Ben Smith has said he wanted to make a major shake up in Africa, for Air France. Reduce the number of tag service.Probably use some aircraft such as A321LR enabling to add more flights on some destinations, where the B777 or A330 is too big. Djibouti is served only 1 time a week by AF, while Tutkish Airlines operates a daily service and Qatar Airways 7 flights a week (some days they are 2 flights in the day)
SN Should do the same. With little competition an extra stopover doesn't hurt demand too much, but with increased competition to Africa all these tag-on's are problematic.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by lumumba »

Jetter wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 19:44
rwandan-flyer wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 19:24Ben Smith has said he wanted to make a major shake up in Africa, for Air France. Reduce the number of tag service.Probably use some aircraft such as A321LR enabling to add more flights on some destinations, where the B777 or A330 is too big. Djibouti is served only 1 time a week by AF, while Tutkish Airlines operates a daily service and Qatar Airways 7 flights a week (some days they are 2 flights in the day)
SN Should do the same. With little competition an extra stopover doesn't hurt demand too much, but with increased competition to Africa all these tag-on's are problematic.
I'm totally agree with that the stop in Kinshasa from Luanda is a pain in the ass!!!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sn26567 »

Jetter wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 19:44
rwandan-flyer wrote: 06 Aug 2019, 19:24Ben Smith has said he wanted to make a major shake up in Africa, for Air France. Reduce the number of tag service.Probably use some aircraft such as A321LR enabling to add more flights on some destinations, where the B777 or A330 is too big. Djibouti is served only 1 time a week by AF, while Tutkish Airlines operates a daily service and Qatar Airways 7 flights a week (some days they are 2 flights in the day)
SN Should do the same. With little competition an extra stopover doesn't hurt demand too much, but with increased competition to Africa all these tag-on's are problematic.
In early July, in reply to my question about the possibility for SN to use the A321(X)LR, Christina Foerster said that she would love to have that aircraft in her fleet, but that she did not have the money. Become profitable is her initial goal!
André
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rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by rwandan-flyer »

SN Should do the same. With little competition an extra stopover doesn't hurt demand too much, but with increased competition to Africa all these tag-on's are problematic.
In Jeune Afrique, few years ago, Emirates said below 50 000 pax per year, they don't open a route. Their goal is to split a route quickly, but it depends to many factors. They started flights to Lusaka / Harare, in 2012, they planned to split the route in 2013, it's not yet the case. If i m right, EK splited DXB-Nairobi-Entebbe service, mid 2000s and then the DXB-Addis Ababa-Entebbe service, early 2010s.

Below 50,000 passengers a year, we can not consider a creation, "says Jean-Luc Grillet.

[..]

First a line serving several destinations, then, depending on the evolution of profitability, a direct connection to Dubai. "This will be the case for Lusaka and Harare, with the aim of separating the roads in 2013. Currently, this is also the case for Addis Ababa and Entebbe or Accra and Abidjan. On this last line, the filling rates are already higher than 90%, it will be necessary to separate the two destinations rather quickly » https://www.jeuneafrique.com/189193/arc ... l-afrique/

In deed, they are probably some SN services to Africa, that could be splited. Maybe Dakar, Abidjan, Kinshasa, Luanda or Accra. Others destinations can be served with a tag service, but with more flights, by using a mix A321XLR and A330, like Air Transat is doing.

Anyways, i think that guys at SN and Lufthansa Group know what they have to do, to be a strong competitor in Africa

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BrightCedars
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by BrightCedars »

When it comes to Africa SN isn't really benefitting from alliance dymanics. TP and ET are going at it solo and SA is too far South to be of any use. LH and LX are still flying where there is money to be made for them, even competing with SN. TK is carving its own share of the market at lightning speed. Outside this alliance our neighbors AF, KL are very aggressive plus AT, IB and to a lesser extent the Gulf carriers are taking their own bites at the market.

Competitively, BRU is not best located to serve that market either. The greater share of potential customers live South of BRU so need to backtrack to their final destination. This will always give a competitive penalty to SN. Also with the flight shaming it's going to be difficult to justify these 2 daily CDG-BRU flights. Here it's to BRU to make sure it gets high speed train benefits equivalent to those at AMS and CDG. I mean people are taking a bus from BRU to CDG to fly from there to Africa via BRU because it's cheaper than from BRU. How eco-conscious is that.

So SN needs to differentiate. How? By offering a better (premium) and lesser (cattle) product and better frequencies. TK fly all the way West to DSS and South to TNR with B737-800's! SN requires a better suited fleet to decouple destinations and increase frequency. At the same time it needs to have government support to get better bilateral deals. This should benefit all Belgian airlines of course, we need healthy competition at home.

They are in no way protected and the next 5 years will be critical to their survival as a network carrier.

bartds
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by bartds »

There seems to be no light & relax tickets anymore available for Brussels Airlines European summer (july 2020!) destinatons like Malaga, Alicante, Sevilla,.. Pricing already at 400-500 eur pp departure any period first weeks of july. Seems not normal to me. Pricing error?

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by airbuske »

bartds wrote: 10 Aug 2019, 15:22 There seems to be no light & relax tickets anymore available for Brussels Airlines European summer (july 2020!) destinatons like Malaga, Alicante, Sevilla,.. Pricing already at 400-500 eur pp departure any period first weeks of july. Seems not normal to me. Pricing error?
The cheapest booking classes are not (yet) open for sales.
Best regards,

Airbuske

Not Real
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Not Real »

bartds wrote: 10 Aug 2019, 15:22 There seems to be no light & relax tickets anymore available for Brussels Airlines European summer (july 2020!) destinatons like Malaga, Alicante, Sevilla,.. Pricing already at 400-500 eur pp departure any period first weeks of july. Seems not normal to me. Pricing error?
No, these are just the prices of “no-service” SN.

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