Brussels Airlines in 2019

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TLspotting
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by TLspotting »

For anybody who hasn't read yet :

All future short and medium haul aircraft are now going to wear Eurowings livery.
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... gs-livery/
Hi. I'm T., spotter and aviation geek. Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Stij »

I've spent the wekend in Düsseldorf and gave it a thought.

1. It's not about the money, it's about a hub or not.
Düsseldorf is the second richest large city in Germany, after Frankfurt and is EW's largest base. When Lufthansa took over SN, BRU wasn't a real hub... FRA, MUC, ZRH and VIE were / are real hubs.

2. Independent doesn't work.
The Belgian investors were right not to put their money in SN Brussels Airlines. There's no future as an independent carrier. Even KL sold their sole to AF and are now afraid.
If SN Brussels would have stayed independent, it would have been bankrupt by now or have stayed very niche.
Maybe OneWorld could have been better, but that's something we'll never know (did they even ever made a bid).

3. Brussels Airlines grew… at least short haul.
The fleet this summer will be 22 A319 and 17 A320.

4. When EW fails… I presume internally they will keep track base per base. and if the BRU operations are profitable, they won't axe them. They'll keep them. And if it's very profitable (which it isn't) they'll let it even grow.

5. I stay convinced the future of aviation in Europe follows the US market and so in the end even the Eurowings will disappear and will become Lufthansa. That will happen when Eurowings will take over LH's short haul operations.

6. I think we react emotionally because we feel downgraded to Eurowings. If we would have been absorbed into Lufthansa it wouldn't have felt that bad.

7. Why are we in this situation? Because of the actions of politicians (the management) and unions in the 70's and the 80's.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sean1982 »

Flanker3 wrote:
14 May 2019, 05:16

Good luck to the SN staff.
Does anyone know if Tolipanebas is still flying for SN? I would like to stick it to him.
Ask passenger, he knows him very well I heard.

Sad news, but predictable, at least for the realists (otherwise known as “bashers”)

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Poiu »

Stij wrote:
14 May 2019, 08:42
I've spent the wekend in Düsseldorf and gave it a thought.

1. It's not about the money, it's about a hub or not.
Düsseldorf is the second richest large city in Germany, after Frankfurt and is EW's largest base. When Lufthansa took over SN, BRU wasn't a real hub
It’s about money and nothing else!
EW crew are the worst paid in Europe and probably even worldwide! LH wants to reduce their labour cost.
(Just as Air France with Hop and Transavia or BA with Vueling)

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Stij »

Poiu wrote:
14 May 2019, 10:59
Stij wrote:
14 May 2019, 08:42
1. It's not about the money, it's about a hub or not.
It’s about money and nothing else!
Of course I meant if the area was rich or not...

Stij

JustPlanes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by JustPlanes »

Correct me if I'm wrong, SN isn't losing money right... they are making some.
EW is losing a shit load of money...
So now SN becomes EW... that certainly doesn't help SN!
Smells very much like when Swissair used Sabena to buy tons of planes cheaper..Planes Sabena didn't need! and we know the results there...

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Jetter »

What happened to the longhaul center of excellence? Is it established yet, and where is it located if so? At BRU?

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Poiu »

JustPlanes wrote:
14 May 2019, 11:39
Correct me if I'm wrong, SN isn't losing money right... they are making some.
No, they are losing money, they hope to become profitable later this year, but for the moment they aren’t.
Over the whole of their existence they have only been marginalised profitable a couple of years, mainly due to hidden state aid and the sale of valuable slots they bought from Sabena, they day before the bankruptcy, for 1€.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Inquirer »

Stij wrote:
14 May 2019, 08:42
I've spent the wekend in Düsseldorf and gave it a thought.

1. It's not about the money, it's about a hub or not.
Düsseldorf is the second richest large city in Germany, after Frankfurt and is EW's largest base. When Lufthansa took over SN, BRU wasn't a real hub... FRA, MUC, ZRH and VIE were / are real hubs.

2. Independent doesn't work.
The Belgian investors were right not to put their money in SN Brussels Airlines. There's no future as an independent carrier. Even KL sold their sole to AF and are now afraid.
If SN Brussels would have stayed independent, it would have been bankrupt by now or have stayed very niche.
Maybe OneWorld could have been better, but that's something we'll never know (did they even ever made a bid).

3. Brussels Airlines grew… at least short haul.
The fleet this summer will be 22 A319 and 17 A320.

4. When EW fails… I presume internally they will keep track base per base. and if the BRU operations are profitable, they won't axe them. They'll keep them. And if it's very profitable (which it isn't) they'll let it even grow.

5. I stay convinced the future of aviation in Europe follows the US market and so in the end even the Eurowings will disappear and will become Lufthansa. That will happen when Eurowings will take over LH's short haul operations.

6. I think we react emotionally because we feel downgraded to Eurowings. If we would have been absorbed into Lufthansa it wouldn't have felt that bad.
As I've said before, no idea why people react so emotionally about a name or a lick of paint on a plane?
Some see airlines as football teams they can only supporter for it if it's playing in the right colours.
Reality is, aviation is just business really. :roll:

Anyway, pleased to see the plan is indeed pretty much as I've said it should be, already some years ago: split the commercial activities at Brussels in 2 and have the European flights done under the generic Eurowings brand: I don't doubt for a minute this will be rolled over to other brands of the group in future too and rightfully so: it just makes sense to take full benefit of scale here!

Having for instance Austrian run only a handful of flights to Vienna and spend tons on advertising in say the Madrid area to fill their plane is just insane: far better to have it under the Eurowings name too and have Eurowings run an add in that Madrid area to promote all of 'their' flights to BRU, VIE etc on top of all the other ones they run already: that way it's a true competitor to Iberia on a commerical front.

As to Eurowings itself, I'd expect them to move even more upscale than they already have over the past 18 months to make all of this possible. My bet: we'll soon see them introduce a C class on Europe too, and an explosion in transfer arrangements like codeshares, rerouting options, etc. They've come a long way from being just a point-to-point no frill airline already, believe me. They are as much 'hybrid' as B.air is, although they seem to be completely allergic to be called that way, but I fly them regularly intra-Germany and there's hardly any meaningful difference to what Lufthansa still did just 5 years ago on these routes or what brussels airlines is doing right now, but on a much bigger and thus far more cost efficient scale.
And that's how it should be.

I see Brussels Airlines as a sort of Air Dolomiti on a larger scale: operating some highly important flights and some planes on their own under their own brand still, but operating most of them on behalf of the group and in their generic colours. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Nice little airline, btw!
Always pleased to see whenever the BRU-MUC is operated by Air Dolomiti even!
I'm sure Lufthansa will be able to generate extra savings by having B.Air fly for instance BRU-HAM-MUC-TXL-BRU over having the Brussels plane come back to BRU half empty around noon like they now have to do all too often: just saying schedules like these help to keep loads up throughout the day, something which is only possible if you operate as one brand of course. Unless you can support a massive network like in FRA and you can feed 24 hours a day, it is most likely very difficult to justify certain return flights, even though you have to keep the outbound flight for connectivity in place and vice versa…. one brand solves all of that.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Conti764 »

I can only speak for myself, @Inquirer, but I don't really care for the paint on the fuselage. If SN staff is not negatively affected I don't care if it's Brussels Airlines or Eurowings. And to be clear, I don't work for SN.

I do fear the consequences for BRU though. We have experienced quite a strong expansion in destinations but it's stagnating a bit. Unless LH anounces EW becoming a full *A-member (an xxl-SN so to say) soon other airlines have no reason anymore to fly into BRU, or at least lesser reasons. BRU would be scaled back to a feeder station, having other hubs (FRA, DUS, MUC, ZRH and VIE) doing the international flying.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Atlantis »

That is indeed the case. It is not important what color is on the plane.

But there is a real concern in this:

1) EW is not doing good, but in meantime they swallowed SN into them. What in case that they will stop with this project?? Then there will be even no airline anymore in BRU bcs SN is owned and part of LH. Swiss scenario?? This is a real consequence for BRU. If no airline anymore then LH will win twice. They fence now their backyard and use SN/EW as feeder for probably their own hubs. And in case EW will discontinue, everything will be centralized in DE.

2) Will the same product of SN stay in Europe even it will be now EW. If not, no reason for other airlines to codeshare. SN will still fly on their own AOC but with which product?

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sean1982 »

Atlantis wrote:
14 May 2019, 15:37
That is indeed the case. It is not important what color is on the plane.

But there is a real concern in this:

1) EW is not doing good, but in meantime they swallowed SN into them. What in case that they will stop with this project?? Then there will be even no airline anymore in BRU bcs SN is owned and part of LH. Swiss scenario?? This is a real consequence for BRU. If no airline anymore then LH will win twice. They fence now their backyard and use SN/EW as feeder for probably their own hubs. And in case EW will discontinue, everything will be centralized in DE.

2) Will the same product of SN stay in Europe even it will be now EW. If not, no reason for other airlines to codeshare. SN will still fly on their own AOC but with which product?
Exactly, inquirer you changed your opinion about a 1000 times in the last 5 years, I still remember your “impressive line up of B-tails post” from a few years ago.

The point is not about the paint but about integration into a massively loss making project. This could be harmful not only for SN but also for BRU. An integration into easyJet or Ryanair for that matter would have been a lot less worysome.

PttU
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by PttU »

The fact that EW isn't making any profit might be irrelevant: if they need to make (some) loss to keep the other LCC's away, it might be worth it.
If EW should raise their prices to become profitable, they leave a bigger part of the market for for instance Ryanair to fill in. And more and more people will take that option, leaving less and less passengers for EW for the same route. so in the end: EW has to downscale, abandon the route or accept the loss to keep the competitors out...

One more reason to accept losses now is if these losses can be explained by higher fuel prices. If the same amount of pax at the same prices but with the fuel price of last year (or an expected fuel price in the future) would be profitable: it's reasonable to accept the loss. Especially if combined with the above.

stevemertens
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by stevemertens »

I heard a rumour about a 7th icon livery that would be presented in june. Any confirmation on this?

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by convair »

stevemertens wrote:
15 May 2019, 10:49
I heard a rumour about a 7th icon livery that would be presented in june. Any confirmation on this?
Correct: the EW livery on OO-SNN! ;)

stevemertens
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by stevemertens »

convair wrote:
15 May 2019, 10:55
stevemertens wrote:
15 May 2019, 10:49
I heard a rumour about a 7th icon livery that would be presented in june. Any confirmation on this?
Correct: the EW livery on OO-SNN! ;)
No not the EW livery on OO-SNN. The rumour I heard is about a Disney livery (Lion King), but I can't see a link with Disney being a Belgian icon...

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sn26567 »

stevemertens wrote:
15 May 2019, 10:49
I heard a rumour about a 7th icon livery that would be presented in june. Any confirmation on this?
During the presentation of the 6th icon, SN staff indeed indicated plans for a 7th icon, not in June, but some time in 2020.

[Ironic mode on] Eurowings flies you to the home of the European Commission [Ironic mode off].
André
ex Sabena #26567

stevemertens
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by stevemertens »

sn26567 wrote:
15 May 2019, 11:10
Eurowings flies you to the home of the European Commission.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Brussels Airlines has realized an operational profit for 2017 of 3,92M (which is good, given the 22/03/2016 drama and the startups from India and the Thomas Cook ops). However, for BY2017 they also had to register two huge non-reccurrent costs: the refund of the illegal state aid (2013, 2014, 2015) and a loss of 21M on the 22/03/2016 insurance payout (registered a year earlier, but the insurance companies didn't pay what Brussels Airlines expected). Those non-reccurrent costs, and previous losses, leave them with a cumulated loss on 31/12/2017 of 105M.


Regarding Brussels Airlines’ future: maybe some people should learn to make a difference between the integration of Brussels Airlines into Eurowings (example: one fuel hedging desk, in Düsseldorf), and the merger of Brussels Airlines nv/sa into Eurowings GmbH (with all debts and assets transferred from the Belgian nv/sa to the German GmbH, followed by the liquidation of the Belgian nv/sa).


Contrary to most people here, I have never spoken to Carsten Spohr so I don’t know his intentions. But I have listened to Christina Foerster in real life a few times already, and for me it’s clear she was sent to Brussels to run the company, and not to close the door. Actually, with Lufthansa controlling BRU’s main carrier, Lufthansa avoids competition on their very busy and very high yield routes BRU-FRA and BRU-MUC.

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by convair »

Passenger wrote:
15 May 2019, 12:51
Actually, with Lufthansa controlling BRU’s main carrier, Lufthansa avoids competition on their very busy and very high yield routes BRU-FRA and BRU-MUC.
Are you sure about that? Usually, airlines offer a very good deal to connecting pax, to the point that the "feeding" leg doesn't bring much money, if any. e.g. AF long haul flights are often cheaper from BRU than from CDG.

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