Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

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KriVa
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Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by KriVa »

Some problems with flight data at Belgocontrol apparently.

Clear the Sky procedure in progress/has been performed.
Thomas

B737229
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by B737229 »

This kind of bullshit make BRU for me the last option as a Pax ..
Strikes , shutdowns, .. there's always something going on !

AarjenP
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by AarjenP »

Image

sean1982
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by sean1982 »

Aircraft seem to be entering airspace again

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KriVa
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by KriVa »

At a very, very limited rate indeed.
Thomas

mvg
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by mvg »

It is high time for Belgium to change their ATC service provider... So many failures, so many disruptions, such a poor work, so many people who work "1 hour on 1 hour off" for 6000€/month after tax, 35 hours/week (from which they steal every day with early leaves), and so much more. Shame!

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KriVa
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by KriVa »

Judging by your reply, it seems obvious you haven't a clue as to what's actually going on behind the gates in Steenokkerzeel.
Thomas

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lumumba
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by lumumba »

But it happens to offen how can you work properly with this.....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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lumumba
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by lumumba »

Looks like the problem is resolved...
Hasta la victoria siempre.

mvg
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by mvg »

Happy to hear what isn't true in my statement.

During a shift from 06.45 till 14.15, controllers work 4 hours effectively (in some units, even less) and leave at 13.00.
Same is valid for other shifts.
Pay varies between 4000€ until above 10000€ after tax (above 10000 being reached every trimester with the "extra time 250% paid system" implemented two years ago and still in force).
Anything above 35h/week is paid extra or compensation hours.
Night shifts are from 22.00 till 08.00 but Belgocontrol pays for 14 hours.
Every recall is paid 150/200€ even if it is to come to work just one hour earlier than planned.

Should I continue?

mvg
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by mvg »

And about that "clear the sky" procedure: why is it so drastic? Just for a AFTN (FPL (and other data) distribution) problem? Seriously? What about the use of the old paper strips? How were controllers doing before?
Belgian controllers have several back-up systems, a fallback radar, emergency radios, screens all over the ops-room,... What are they used for? Just to clear the sky and put a zero rate?
Can't they work procedurally anymore?

When we have a failure on board, we don't ditch our plane in the nearest crop field available, we work through the problem and most of the time even fly to destination.

And, no, no jealousy at all :) But a seriously weird feeling when I see how other countries work compared to this...

Passenger
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by Passenger »

lumumba wrote: 19 Jul 2018, 17:49 But it happens to offen how can you work properly with this.....
Yes, these failures happen too often indeed: I think it's already the first time this year.

(6th June 2017 was a power failure:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=61643)

(edited: fower-power)
Last edited by Passenger on 19 Jul 2018, 20:39, edited 1 time in total.

mvg
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by mvg »

19th July 2018: flight data failure
6th June 2017: power failure
27th May 2015: major power failure
Each time the belgian sky was "cleared"... In 2015 for several long hours...
Plus all the failures which nobody talks or knows about (frozen radar screens, voice communication (radio or phone) disruptions, radar failures).

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lumumba
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote: 19 Jul 2018, 18:54
lumumba wrote: 19 Jul 2018, 17:49 But it happens to offen how can you work properly with this.....
Yes, these failures happen too often indeed: I think it's already the first time this year.

(6th June 2017 was a fower failure:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=61643)
But once a year is to much it should never happens or rarely....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Passenger
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by Passenger »

It's no excuse of course, but Dutch ATC had a similar problem at Amsterdam Schiphol on 21st November 2017. Although, "similar": it lasted longer and more flights were affected.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2203888-storing- ... j-klm.html

And it's no excuse of course, but Amsterdam Schiphol Airport had a major power failure on their Black Monday: Sunday 29th April 2018. Their power backup failed.
https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/222958 ... iphol.html

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KriVa
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by KriVa »

I wanted to write a very long post about all of this, but honestly, I can't be arsed to do so.
mvg:
I rest my case, you don't seem to have a clue about what the job of an ATCO actually entails. Your stance on the breaks during shifts only confirms that, and shows you haven't done your homework with respect to neighbouring countries and other sectors moving the same amount of traffic that Belgium does (not significantly more, not significantly less).
I always LOVE how quickly this kind of discussion spirals into "They get paid THIS much, so they should just shut up and be happy with whatever is thrown their way, no matter what that is.". It shows a clear lack of understanding about what the discussion is actually about, and it shows a clear lack of understanding of the job.
Your guesstimating of wages also shows that you've heard something somewhere, but don't actually know the context of what was said. There's quite a few true points in your post, but more than a few half truths and convenient spin on truths.
The same can be said about your comment about AFTN/FDPS failures. You weren't in the ops room (neither was I, by the way), so you have absolutely no idea about what went down. You have no idea what was shown on the scopes, and you have no clue what was shown on the backup scopes. You have no clue whether the data shown was reliable or not, you have no clue whether they even saw anything at all.
I get the feeling you proclaim a Clear The Sky was performed just because it was fun and the ATCOs were bored.
A Clear The Sky is ALWAYS a stressful procedure, especially because you tend to do it with equipment that's working less than optimally, and you don't know what's going to fail next you might have PSR at one moment, and a blank scope the next. Cascading failures are a thing and have happened before.

This kind of stuff should never happen, but it does. Humans are fallible, and by an extent, so are the computer programs they've written. They can mess up in spectacular ways, or they can mess up in ways that are hardly noticeable. Do you really want to wait and continue as normal when you see systems are starting to fail? There's no problem when a scope is showing no information. When a scope starts showing false information, things get dangerous and you want to have everything cleared as fast and as safely as possible.
Falling back to procedural control is simply not realistic in the complex airspace of Western Europe, especially not if it would need to happen in an instant, with perhaps multiple systems failing or not providing correct information. Can you show me anyplace where the airspace is as complex as the Belgian airspace, or even close to it, where they have a procedural back up in place, ready to be switched on in an instant after a system failure?

(And for those wondering: yes, this is a LOT shorter than the post I originally intended to write.)
Thomas

mvg
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by mvg »

@ Passenger
True, failures can happen everywhere.

Here we are talking about 3 major failures in 3 years. It's not about an airport but about air traffic control.

This service provider that has no other procedure than a "clear the sky" in case things go wrong. There is NO contingency ops-room or tower (except in EBBR but when has it been last tested "live"?). If there is ever a fire in the control centre (ACC or APP), there will be no flight over Belgium for ages.

"Regional" airports have nothing either in case their facility is out of service. Scary, isn't it?

@Kriva
Thanks for your answer. You are probably one of the last ones who is still happy to do his/her job there and that's great to see!
Believe me (or not), I know the company, the ops-room and all the towers very well.
What I wrote about the working hours, salaries, compensations is absolutely true. I have thousands of documents to prove it.
- Salaries are high in Belgium (so are they in the neighboring countries). Some controllers make more than 5000€ per month (and more than 10000€ every 3 months). I can't give exact figures (nobody can) because it depends on how many extra hours you work, how many sundays, and so on. You never get twice the same salary.
- the working hours are 35h/week (minus the daily early leaves which every ones knows about but does nothing)
- the work is NOT more difficult than in other parts of Europe. It's even the opposite! Belgian controllers work 1 hour ON/ 1 hour OFF the whole time and some of these hours ON are on planning positions. Everyone is saying that Belgium has got the most complicated airspace: come on, where else have you been to compare?
Have you seen Geneva with moutains all around? Have you see London TMA?
Belgian airspace is just over complicated and its design dates back from the second world war! There is the problem! Old procedures, vectoring like "king vectors" all over the country: that makes it difficult!
- nights are paid 14 hours while you work only 10. Out of those 10 hours, people sleep sometimes (usually) half the night! Good for them! But let's not say it's a hard job please :) Check flightradar 24 over Belgium between 23.00 and 06.00: there is nothing!
- there is NO quality check, even no check at all regarding how controllers are working: pilots are checked every 6 months (simulator, theory), controllers from other countries are checked every year (written exam, tape reviews, practical sessions). In Belgium? Nothing! Just a stupid computer test with 20 questions that everyone knows in advance :) When have you been checked for your practical work for the last time? -> when you finished school! For some controllers, it means 25 years ago! Is that normal with the work you are doing? Are controllers super-heroes who do not need to be refreshed or tested?
- the clear the sky procedure was of course not used for fun. What I say is that there is nothing else that is put in place! Yes procedural control works ANYWHERE! Take planes one by one and that's better than nothing! And it's safe! What's the use of your fallback systems (there are even two of them) if the sky is cleared as soon as something happens? The problem is that you have not been taught how to work procedurally, have you? New controllers are only taught to work radar nowadays...

Don't misunderstand my words: there are good people in that company who are willing to do a great job. Unfortunately they are not given the possibility to do so. The rest of the people are abusing "the system" and nobody dares to tell them anything, whatever they do, because we all know that a strike or a few sick calls would be happening immediately.

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KriVa
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by KriVa »

Again, I rest my case. For those in the know, more than a few mistakes are visible in your last post, same as the previous posts. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: there's truth in it, of course. But there's more to it than just the one sided picture you paint.

I'll leave it at that.
FYI: I have been taught to work procedurally, same as the controllers before me and after me. The problems run deeper than just that. I have been tested both practically and theoretically in the last six months, and the backup tower at EBBR was used live for the last time about seven or eight months ago.
Thomas

SR20
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by SR20 »

mvg wrote: 19 Jul 2018, 21:50 Check flightradar 24 over Belgium between 23.00 and 06.00: there is nothing!
Are you sure you had internet connection when using FR24 between 23.00 and 06.00 ? 😁
Don't you forget that FedEx/TNT has a hub in LGG and DHL one in BRU ? And I don't mention traffic from/to Köln very active at night (UPS and FedEx hub)

Bapt'
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Re: Flight Data Failure at Belgocontrol -> Clear The Sky

Post by Bapt' »

There is NO contingency ops-room or tower (except in EBBR but when has it been last tested "live"?). If there is ever a fire in the control centre (ACC or APP), there will be no flight over Belgium for ages.
There're contingency positions in the old building Canac 1.
Salaries are high in Belgium (so are they in the neighboring countries). Some controllers make more than 5000€ per month
Go to France, to MUAC, and tell me about it...
the working hours are 35h/week (minus the daily early leaves which every ones knows about but does nothing)
35h/week is what an ATC should work theorically... 50h/week has been the norm for years now with up to 12 days in a row, due to a chronic staff shortage.
Belgian controllers work 1 hour ON/ 1 hour OFF the whole time and some of these hours ON are on planning positions.
Do you really know an ANSP where controllers work 7 hours in a row ?
Planner positions exists in all neighbors ACC centres as well...
Check flightradar 24 over Belgium between 23.00 and 06.00: there is nothing!
EBLG : 40 arrivals, 40 departures during the night. All arriving and departing at the same time creating a traffic peak.
the clear the sky procedure was of course not used for fun. What I say is that there is nothing else that is put in place! Yes procedural control works ANYWHERE! Take planes one by one and that's better than nothing! And it's safe! What's the use of your fallback systems (there are even two of them) if the sky is cleared as soon as something happens? The problem is that you have not been taught how to work procedurally, have you? New controllers are only taught to work radar nowadays...
There are specifics procedures that needs to be followed in case of system degradation. You can't do what you want... Even though new controllers doesn't hold procedural ratings, they have been taught about it during their course.
The rest of the people are abusing "the system" and nobody dares to tell them anything, whatever they do, because we all know that a strike or a few sick calls would be happening immediately.
I have to remind you that ATCs are not obliged to work extra hours, almost everyone accepts to do it though, to allow airports to run normally ...

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