Air Belgium in 2018

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Shonix
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Shonix »

nordikcam wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 20:02
sn26567 wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 12:09
Niky Terzakis:

Dear Fans and non-supporters,

AB is a serious Company driven by a great team of very experienced professionals. It is not a one-man band! AB is Currently employing over 150 staff employees and still aggressively hiring. Suspending a route during a season is a decision made every year by many airlines.


The boss of Air Belgium has good game to say that delete a line that is done in all airlines in the world. That's right, I guess. The problem here is that it was the only one.
Do not come and tell me that everything is fine with CRL or Air Belgium when, in fact, nothing seems to go! No runway, no passengers and no Tour Operator ! It's a little problem no ?


Do you really think a CEO would ever speak in a negative way? All he is trying to do is extinguishing the fire of negativism, which is rising towards Air Belgium.

However, the company's image experienced several setbacks. It will be crucial for Air Belgium to do its utmost to build and maintain the image of a serious company, as stated by the CEO. Up to now, they're seen as amateurs.

Shonix
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Shonix »

Passenger wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 08:34
JustPlanes wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 07:11 They will make a lot more money flying ACMI this winter than empty planes to Hong Kong so probably the right decision... and look at HiFly... they started ACMI with the A340 and now are the only airline in the world to offer the A380 in ACMI. AB is very lucky that this 787 situation is going on right now.... that not only requires a lot of ACMI but it means most of the ACMI carriers are booked up... so a good time to make a name for themselves in the market!

I find it weird that there are "non supporters' though... don't all of us aviation fans want more airlines flying around... the scene was becoming pretty boring with one airline eating up many others.... like here in the USA... so wish them luck and maybe some routes to the USA next year which Belgium could use in my book!
Optimism won't help them. Only realism can. They don't need moral support: they need business. And one has to look at the hard reality now. So let's talk about money. Many people here (including myself) don't pay a full fare ticket. Many fly for free on their own company, many are invited (thank you TUI and Brussels Airlines), many pay their tickets with their bosses' company card. But the problem that Air Belgium now has, is that those who pay for tickets themselves, want to know with almost certitude that they won't loose their 2 x 500 € when they pay today for flights in May 2019.

Fact is that Air Belgium can't give that certitude to enough passengers anymore. Hence my opinion: they won't be able to become successfull with scheduled flights anymore. Not for HKG, not for new destinations in China. So they have limited options now. And I agree with JustPlanes (and others) that ACMI is their best option, as I already wrote yesterday:
Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 15:57 What next? Scheduled flights are excluded because they have lost the confidence from most of the public and most of the travel trade. Ask Connections... ACMI and backups seems to be the only way out, and they have one major advantage towards HiFly, EuroAtlantic and Vamos: four aircraft on standby at location Belgium.
Can't agree more with you. However, if ACMI is their only option, why calling themselves Air Belgium? This seems ridiculous.

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Vic Diesel
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Vic Diesel »

Shonix wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 13:20Can't agree more with you. However, if ACMI is their only option, why calling themselves Air Belgium? This seems ridiculous.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Air Belgium is:
- a Belgian company with its seat in Mont-Saint-Guibert,
- based at a Belgian airport,
- initially planned to fly scheduled flights between Belgium and China.

What do you suggest? Should they re-name themselves, re-paint (sticker) their planes and put up a new CI? With all due respect: THIS would be truly ridiculous!
Best regards,
Viktor

(Budapest-born, Vienna-raised, Brussels-based)

convair
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by convair »

Vic Diesel wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 14:44
Shonix wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 13:20Can't agree more with you. However, if ACMI is their only option, why calling themselves Air Belgium? This seems ridiculous.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Air Belgium is:
- a Belgian company with its seat in Mont-Saint-Guibert,
- based at a Belgian airport,
- initially planned to fly scheduled flights between Belgium and China.

What do you suggest? Should they re-name themselves, re-paint (sticker) their planes and put up a new CI? With all due respect: THIS would be truly ridiculous!
Agree

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Vic Diesel
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Vic Diesel »

737MAX wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 15:22
Vic Diesel wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 14:44
Shonix wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 13:20Can't agree more with you. However, if ACMI is their only option, why calling themselves Air Belgium? This seems ridiculous.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Air Belgium is:
- a Belgian company with its seat in Mont-Saint-Guibert,
- based at a Belgian airport,
- initially planned to fly scheduled flights between Belgium and China.

What do you suggest? Should they re-name themselves, re-paint (sticker) their planes and put up a new CI? With all due respect: THIS would be truly ridiculous!
No, that wouldn’t be ridiculous at all if you look at it without belgian feelings... An ACMI only airline needs a neutral name, with a neutral livery. For obvious reasons.
The airline exists, the CI exists and I guess they still have not abandoned hope to fly scheduled flights and not rely entirely on ACMI and therefore - plus considering the costs of a rebranding etc. - it would be preposterious to already put the aircraft back into hangars for the rebranding, instead of letting them fly for revenue.

And rest assured: if you look at my signature you will see that I look into matters "without belgian feelings". But also without Flemish / Wallonian / etc. feelings as well... ;)
Best regards,
Viktor

(Budapest-born, Vienna-raised, Brussels-based)

Shonix
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Shonix »

Vic Diesel wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 15:59
737MAX wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 15:22
Vic Diesel wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 14:44
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Air Belgium is:
- a Belgian company with its seat in Mont-Saint-Guibert,
- based at a Belgian airport,
- initially planned to fly scheduled flights between Belgium and China.

What do you suggest? Should they re-name themselves, re-paint (sticker) their planes and put up a new CI? With all due respect: THIS would be truly ridiculous!
No, that wouldn’t be ridiculous at all if you look at it without belgian feelings... An ACMI only airline needs a neutral name, with a neutral livery. For obvious reasons.
The airline exists, the CI exists and I guess they still have not abandoned hope to fly scheduled flights and not rely entirely on ACMI and therefore - plus considering the costs of a rebranding etc. - it would be preposterious to already put the aircraft back into hangars for the rebranding, instead of letting them fly for revenue.

And rest assured: if you look at my signature you will see that I look into matters "without belgian feelings". But also without Flemish / Wallonian / etc. feelings as well... ;)
The whole Air Belgium project now seems to be a complete mess. The desired image of the company is now compromised and they keep reinforcing a perceived image of a company who lacks to position itself on the market. I've first seen them as a charter company trying to do business with chinese tourists. Now I see them as an aircraft leasing company while management tries to give an image of a Belgian long-haul airline offering flights to Asia at a reasonable fare. There is something wrong.

I had many doubts about the company at the beginning I have to admit, I really thought they could make it once they started their first flights. However, I now lack confidence in them. My opinion isn't important at all but if investors begin to lack confidence in them, they'll soon become a thing of the past.

Boavida
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Boavida »

Air Belgium has become a national 'embarrassment'

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

:mrgreen: a Wallonian national embarrassment, then? :mrgreen:

(sorry, couldn't resist. Admins, feel free to remove, it's not serious)

Desert Rat
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Desert Rat »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 17:59 :mrgreen: a Wallonian national embarrassment, then? :mrgreen:

(sorry, couldn't resist. Admins, feel free to remove, it's not serious)
Well, as a Flemish by genes, I can tell you that I'm very proud of this "embarrassment"...whether you call it Belgian or Walloon...at least they try hard, and they believe in their project.

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luchtzak
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by luchtzak »

Boavida wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 17:39 Air Belgium has become a national 'embarrassment'
Harsh words! Wait and see what the future brings ...

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

I'm very proud of this "embarrassment"...whether you call it Belgian or Walloon...at least they try hard, and they believe in their project.
Yes, totally right. And I mean that much more serious! There's no shame in failing - and they are far from that! - there is much honour in a well-founded try. In any region of any country. So I too wish them every success.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Some people blame me for having too much negativism towards Air Belgium. I disagree. I walked through the old posts here (= as from the initial annoucement), and I was one of the few who believed in the project when they started. Example: my post from 1st June 2017:
Post by Passenger » 01 Jun 2017, 22:11
The top management team that will assist mr Terzakis, is very very impressive:
http://airbelgium.com/en/about-us
I then mainly posted about their aircraft movements (mainly on FR24), till TLspotting took over…

Few months later, we were then confronted with the AOC delay. Then too, I was one of those who believed in the project. Whilst others blamed Air Belgium for not having a solid file, I gave them all credits and I blamed the Belgian CAA. I did so because I have witnessed from closeby a similar story in 2002, when VG Airlines had to wait very long for its AOC. Example: my post from May 2017:
Post by Passenger » 16 May 2017, 13:52
I indeed think that it is not normal that the Belgian CAA needs more than 9 months to take a decision. For an new AOC, the CAA has to check all requirements from an existing checklist. Most difficult question is probably financial sustainability, but it is not normal that it takes more than then 9 months to audit a business plan. Specially not when it has been confirmed/audited already by an international firm like KPMG or E&Y.
In October 2017, they reported a huge loss for 2016 (2,2M€). I reported it without any comment. My post from 28th Oct 2017:
by Passenger » 28 Oct 2017, 15:45
During their first financial year (18/02/2016-31/12/2016), they made a loss of 2,185,000 Euro.
(source: NBB)
Only once they had their first aircraft, I started to doubt. Simply because it was quite obvious to those with experience in ticketing & the travel trade, that things were going wrong. In brief:

* announcement of the first revenu flight was postponed a few times;
* too little time between “book now” and and first flight, causing lack of bookings (I don’t even use “load factor” because there were so little bookings);
* lack of presence in a GDS and lack of a call center;
* unfriendly schedule: when you have 4 flights per week, you can’t have 3 consecutive days without a flight. And you need to focus on weekend flights;
* use of CRL Airport when the direct competition is at BRU. Remember Terzakis once told that 80% of his clientele comes from the north: then why choose an airport in the south?
* cancellation of their first planned flight;
* reducement of their schedule;
* announcement of “three new routes in China”, once again on very short notice;
* and finally, the announcement of the cancellation of HKG came from a newspaper (L’Avenir), not from them.

So there was not just one factor that caused the HKG failure.

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lumumba
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by lumumba »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 19:27
I'm very proud of this "embarrassment"...whether you call it Belgian or Walloon...at least they try hard, and they believe in their project.
Yes, totally right. And I mean that much more serious! There's no shame in failing - and they are far from that! - there is much honour in a well-founded try. In any region of any country. So I too wish them every success.
I can be more agree!
I hope I did not made a mistake in my last sentence ;)
Hasta la victoria siempre.

FLYAIR10
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by FLYAIR10 »

Only once they had their first aircraft, I started to doubt. Simply because it was quite obvious to those with experience in ticketing & the travel trade, that things were going wrong. In brief:

* announcement of the first revenu flight was postponed a few times;
* too little time between “book now” and and first flight, causing lack of bookings (I don’t even use “load factor” because there were so little bookings);
* lack of presence in a GDS and lack of a call center;
* unfriendly schedule: when you have 4 flights per week, you can’t have 3 consecutive days without a flight. And you need to focus on weekend flights;
* use of CRL Airport when the direct competition is at BRU. Remember Terzakis once told that 80% of his clientele comes from the north: then why choose an airport in the south?
* cancellation of their first planned flight;
* reducement of their schedule;
* announcement of “three new routes in China”, once again on very short notice;
* and finally, the announcement of the cancellation of HKG came from a newspaper (L’Avenir), not from them.

So there was not just one factor that caused the HKG failure.
And maybe to add to this list: not a single euro of revenue from CARGO carried.It would not have contributed too much, but nevertheless would have been useful when Loadfactors were low.

Shonix
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Shonix »

Another point is the lack of match between the brand name and the brand positioning.

Especially when we take a look at Brussels Airlines who struggled to keep a Belgian identity even way before Lufthansa took over the company. They did their utmost to make the "Belgitude" live but Brussels Airlines is not a well-known brand at all. It would have been more relevant if the new company built on the ashes of Sabena was named "Air Belgium" or "Belgian Air". However, at that time, the "Air Belgium" name didn't fall yet in the public domain and the board believed that "Brussels Airlines" would perfectly match the airline's positioning at that time (connecting Brussels to major European cities and to African countries). However, I personnaly believe selecting "Brussels Airlines" as a brand name was a mistake which contributed to keep a poor brand awareness.

Since the start of the Air Belgium project, I feel like the founder and its team wanted to thumb their noses to the Belgian aviation sector by selecting a brand name representing Belgium while operating from Charleroi Airport and scheduling flights to Asia. In my opinion, it's not consistent at all. If "Air Belgium" would have been named under a more neutral name, I'm pretty sure this topic would be often staying on the second page of this forum.

Desert Rat
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Desert Rat »

To make your long story short...it's all about branding right?

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Vic Diesel
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Vic Diesel »

737MAX wrote: 28 Sep 2018, 11:38
Vic Diesel wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 15:59
The airline exists, the CI exists and I guess they still have not abandoned hope to fly scheduled flights and not rely entirely on ACMI and therefore - plus considering the costs of a rebranding etc. - it would be preposterious to already put the aircraft back into hangars for the rebranding, instead of letting them fly for revenue.
Sure. No doubt about that. But if they want to become an ACMI only airline, they'll need to go for something more neutral than something that looks like the national airline of Belgium ;)
I fully agree with you, however it takes time and money to re-brand a company. I'm sure that Air Belgium would like to fly as many revenue flights as possible instead of putting aircraft on the ground for re-branding. Much like Carpatair, which has nothing to do with the Carpathian mountains anymore, gave up flying scheduled flights out from Romania and relies completely on ACMI.

Yes, it would be logical to re-brand the company to a neutral name if they decided to rely only on ACMI in the future (did they? Or does Niki Terzakis still have plans to fly scheduled flights under own flight numbers?) - but to this day, it would be a financially insane decision.
Best regards,
Viktor

(Budapest-born, Vienna-raised, Brussels-based)

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Agree: when they switch to ACMI only, a name change would be the best scenario. But they are in Plan B now, and then a name change is no priority. And Surinam Airways, Air France, British Airways and TUIfly Belgium have proven that their name is no big deal. What matters for short notice ACMI is the onboard quality, the reliability, the safety image, the safety record, the flexibility, ...

The continuation of their scheduled flights seems to be a more relevant issue now. Bookings for HKG are still possible as from April 2019. Me thinks that they won't be able to restart their scheduled flights and/or open new scheduled routes. Am I wrong?

TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by TLspotting »

Zhengzhou should open in a while...
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

Shonix
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Shonix »

Desert Rat wrote: 28 Sep 2018, 00:11 To make your long story short...it's all about branding right?
A brand name that isn’t enough relevant to match the company’s initial business plan which is now compromised.

In terms of image, they’re in a very bad situation right now which, besides the financial situation, helps increasing the lack of confidence and trust towards the company.

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