Air Belgium in 2018

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Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

What Niki Terzakis has posted on the Air Belgium Fan group on Facebook, is contradicted by Inquirer's realism: "...if what they are doing isn't economically sustainable, it needs to go asap: simple as that..."
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=63219&start=1700#p372694

Would Air Belgium have succeeded if they would have received their AOC 2 years earlier? Yes, most probably. But I have to quote Inquirer again: "...Aviation is a business these days and there's no room for emotional nationalism or prestige driven adventures..."

Regarding the HKG schedule, "temperarory suspended": I don't know if Niki Terzakis is serious about that - maybe he just want to reassure his sponsors. Reality is that Air Belgium will not be able to restart HKG after 1st April 2019 because it's too uncertain. Even their communication about the suspension failed (L'Avenir announced it, before they did).

The aviation trade doesn't believe in a restart serious neither. Just one example: RoutesOnline.com: "Air Belgium this week is ending scheduled service on Brussels South Charleroi – Hong Kong route, announced by the airline last week. Last flight for existing 2 weekly flight is scheduled on 27SEP18 from Brussels, 28SEP18 from Hong Kong"
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -sep-2018/

Regarding Terzakis' "Customer satisfaction": they failed. They have just cancelled more then one hundred of flights, they have disappointed several thousands of passengers. It's weird to use "Customer satisfaction" when you have done that. And their British Airways operations weren't regarded as "customer satisfaction" by the British main stream media:
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 17126.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... r-belgium/

What next? Scheduled flights are excluded because they have lost the confidence from most of the public and most of the travel trade. Ask Connections... ACMI and backups seems to be the only way out, and they have one major advantage towards HiFly, EuroAtlantic and Vamos: four aircraft on standby at location Belgium.

TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by TLspotting »

OO-ABD just gone for Zaventem, flying for TUI as from tomorrow.

3 AB A343 were flying at the same time, for the first time!
Hi. I'm T., spotter and aviation geek. Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

sean1982
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 15:57 Regarding Terzakis' "Customer satisfaction": they failed. They have just cancelled more then one hundred of flights, they have disappointed several thousands of passengers. It's weird to use "Customer satisfaction" when you have done that. And their British Airways operations weren't regarded as "customer satisfaction" by the British main stream media:
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 17126.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... r-belgium/
What a load of crap ... again. Here we are again on a, what claims to be, serious aviation forum using British tabloids as a reference. If BA would have subbed the flight onto a B747 or a B777 of their own, the aircraft would have been even older than an AB airplane. Secondly, the fact that AB markets itself has absolutely zero to do with the service the provide on a lease. The pax on those BA flights received BA service, with all the bells and whistles included.

The truth is that you have been shitting on the AB project since it inception, for whatever reason. Probably the use of a walloon airport as a base is one of them, also that they were competing with your “favourite airline”.

Do I think they did everything right? Far from, however it seems to be typical belgian to hate on everything that seems out of the box, instead of giving it a fair chance.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 17:07
Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 15:57 Regarding Terzakis' "Customer satisfaction": they failed. They have just cancelled more then one hundred of flights, they have disappointed several thousands of passengers. It's weird to use "Customer satisfaction" when you have done that. And their British Airways operations weren't regarded as "customer satisfaction" by the British main stream media:
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 17126.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... r-belgium/
What a load of crap ... again. Here we are again on a, what claims to be, serious aviation forum using British tabloids as a reference. If BA would have subbed the flight onto a B747 or a B777 of their own, the aircraft would have been even older than an AB airplane. Secondly, the fact that AB markets itself has absolutely zero to do with the service the provide on a lease. The pax on those BA flights received BA service, with all the bells and whistles included.

The truth is that you have been shitting on the AB project since it inception, for whatever reason. Probably the use of a walloon airport as a base is one of them, also that they were competing with your “favourite airline”.

Do I think they did everything right? Far from, however it seems to be typical belgian to hate on everything that seems out of the box, instead of giving it a fair chance.
It's allways the same with you. If you don't like the message, you shoot the messenger.

The British press reports that the passengers had booked for a flight with a 787 from a four star airline. So it's fair from the British press to report that they won't get that.

And this is what Wikipedia writes about one newspaper that you call "a tabloid": "...The Telegraph is widely regarded as a national "newspaper of record" and it maintains an international reputation for quality, having been described by the BBC as being "one of the world's great titles...".

Now, regarding Air Belgium: I'm still very modest in my description of their failure.

sean1982
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 17:37
sean1982 wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 17:07
Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 15:57 Regarding Terzakis' "Customer satisfaction": they failed. They have just cancelled more then one hundred of flights, they have disappointed several thousands of passengers. It's weird to use "Customer satisfaction" when you have done that. And their British Airways operations weren't regarded as "customer satisfaction" by the British main stream media:
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 17126.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... r-belgium/
What a load of crap ... again. Here we are again on a, what claims to be, serious aviation forum using British tabloids as a reference. If BA would have subbed the flight onto a B747 or a B777 of their own, the aircraft would have been even older than an AB airplane. Secondly, the fact that AB markets itself has absolutely zero to do with the service the provide on a lease. The pax on those BA flights received BA service, with all the bells and whistles included.

The truth is that you have been shitting on the AB project since it inception, for whatever reason. Probably the use of a walloon airport as a base is one of them, also that they were competing with your “favourite airline”.

Do I think they did everything right? Far from, however it seems to be typical belgian to hate on everything that seems out of the box, instead of giving it a fair chance.
It's allways the same with you. If you don't like the message, you shoot the messenger.

The British press reports that the passengers had booked for a flight with a 787 from a four star airline. So it's fair from the British press to report that they won't get that.

And this is what Wikipedia writes about one newspaper that you call "a tabloid": "...The Telegraph is widely regarded as a national "newspaper of record" and it maintains an international reputation for quality, having been described by the BBC as being "one of the world's great titles...".

Now, regarding Air Belgium: I'm still very modest in my description of their failure.

You book a flight, not an airplane type, you of all people should know that. I have operated countless flights where the original aircraft is X and we operated Z ... not a big deal, service is the same. I'm not shooting you, first of all i was commenting on what your wrote, secondly I'm just stating the facts. Give me any positive post about AB you wrote since the anouncement of the project? Or maybe any positive post about anything besides SN?

BTW, is this what you expect from a "quality newspaper"?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... ghter-jet/

I can give about a hundred more links ... :roll:

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

No personal attacks, please. Discuss the contents, not the authors.
André
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Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 18:28 You book a flight, not an airplane type, you of all people should know that. I have operated countless flights where the original aircraft is X and we operated Z ... not a big deal, service is the same.
No big deal? Hard to believe that British Airways has misled you about the legislation.

European legislation (EU Regulation 2111/2005) states that an airline must announce the name of the operating carrier to the passengers at the moment of booking (unless they don’t know the name of the carrier at that moment). So passengers don’t simply book transport from A to B: they book transport from A to B with carrier X. Although 2111/2005 doesn’t forbit to operate the flight with another aircraft or by another carrier, there might be local consumer leglisation not allowing this. Example: when a Business Class on British Airways is downgraded to a Premium Class on Air Belgium, British Airways must ask if the passenger accepts.

Belgian eminence grise travel professor De Meulemeester uses to say about these changes: when you give consumers something that they would not have ordered when they would have known it at the moment of booking, you should give them the right to cancel. Otherwise they will feel deceived.

When the ticket is part of organized travel, the new European travel legislation (01/07/2018) also applies. And that legislation is more severe: touroperators are only allowed to change something when it’s a minimal change. The Belgian new legislation uses the word ‘insignifant/futile’: quote: “…als het om een onbeduidende verandering gaat…”. Belgian legislation is based upon a new EU Directive, so it must be about the same in the UK. Thus: if a passenger books a city trip to Dubai with a BA-ticket, and this is changed into AB, it’s an important change and the passenger is entitled to cancel. However, when the BA-flight is part of a 14-day organized group tour, flights in Y, the operating carrier is less important. More relevant then are point of departure and return, the flight duration (nonstop, direct, with a stopover) and a use of a EU carrier.

Conclusion: it's not "no big deal". Sure, one could disagree that the Independent and The Telegraph called Air Belgium “low budget”. But basicly they are right: if you have booked because it’s BA and because it’s a 787, you feel more then disappointed when you end up in an AB A340. Even when that flight is going smoothly.

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 22:45 If you have booked because it’s BA and because it’s a 787, you feel more then disappointed when you end up in an AB A340.
To be fair, in economy class, the AB 343 is more comfortable than the BA 787. Passengers should be enchanted!
André
ex Sabena #26567

sean1982
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 22:45
sean1982 wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 18:28 You book a flight, not an airplane type, you of all people should know that. I have operated countless flights where the original aircraft is X and we operated Z ... not a big deal, service is the same.
No big deal? Hard to believe that British Airways has misled you about the legislation.

European legislation (EU Regulation 2111/2005) states that an airline must announce the name of the operating carrier to the passengers at the moment of booking (unless they don’t know the name of the carrier at that moment). So passengers don’t simply book transport from A to B: they book transport from A to B with carrier X. Although 2111/2005 doesn’t forbit to operate the flight with another aircraft or by another carrier, there might be local consumer leglisation not allowing this. Example: when a Business Class on British Airways is downgraded to a Premium Class on Air Belgium, British Airways must ask if the passenger accepts.

Belgian eminence grise travel professor De Meulemeester uses to say about these changes: when you give consumers something that they would not have ordered when they would have known it at the moment of booking, you should give them the right to cancel. Otherwise they will feel deceived.

When the ticket is part of organized travel, the new European travel legislation (01/07/2018) also applies. And that legislation is more severe: touroperators are only allowed to change something when it’s a minimal change. The Belgian new legislation uses the word ‘insignifant/futile’: quote: “…als het om een onbeduidende verandering gaat…”. Belgian legislation is based upon a new EU Directive, so it must be about the same in the UK. Thus: if a passenger books a city trip to Dubai with a BA-ticket, and this is changed into AB, it’s an important change and the passenger is entitled to cancel. However, when the BA-flight is part of a 14-day organized group tour, flights in Y, the operating carrier is less important. More relevant then are point of departure and return, the flight duration (nonstop, direct, with a stopover) and a use of a EU carrier.

Conclusion: it's not "no big deal". Sure, one could disagree that the Independent and The Telegraph called Air Belgium “low budget”. But basicly they are right: if you have booked because it’s BA and because it’s a 787, you feel more then disappointed when you end up in an AB A340. Even when that flight is going smoothly.
Everything you just mentioned was done by BA
https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/in ... djustments

So were the tabloids wrong? yes, as usual .. much to do about nothing

Flanker3
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Flanker3 »

sn26567 wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 22:58
Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 22:45 If you have booked because it’s BA and because it’s a 787, you feel more then disappointed when you end up in an AB A340.
To be fair, in economy class, the AB 343 is more comfortable than the BA 787. Passengers should be enchanted!
That is a good point. I would say way more comfortable.
At least in Y. In J it's debatable but it's not the end of the world.

Well, Air Belgium has burned through a lot of money.
I think that they are lucky that the B787 is experiencing issues with the RR, that takes out a lot of ACMI capacity from the market.
Perhaps they can sign directly with RR and save them money?

Mr. Terzakis, we may be amateurs and it may be a tough business, but the only way to slap it on our face is to prove us wrong. So far the sceptics have been right.
Let's hope that Air Belgium can seize market opportunites. TYO and MNL will work but they need to secure HND slots even at night and they need to talk to JTB. They need to price economy at less than 600 EUR return in high season and less than 500 EUR return low season. With those parameters and Ryanair feed, they'll be flying full in no time.
Margins won't be huge but there will be margins and they will increase with time.

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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by airtrainer »

sn26567 wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 22:58
Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 22:45 If you have booked because it’s BA and because it’s a 787, you feel more then disappointed when you end up in an AB A340.
To be fair, in economy class, the AB 343 is more comfortable than the BA 787. Passengers should be enchanted!
I was about to write the same thing, I'd take an A340 ride over the 787 any day !

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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by JustPlanes »

They will make a lot more money flying ACMI this winter than empty planes to Hong Kong so probably the right decision... and look at HiFly... they started ACMI with the A340 and now are the only airline in the world to offer the A380 in ACMI. AB is very lucky that this 787 situation is going on right now.... that not only requires a lot of ACMI but it means most of the ACMI carriers are booked up... so a good time to make a name for themselves in the market!

I find it weird that there are "non supporters' though... don't all of us aviation fans want more airlines flying around... the scene was becoming pretty boring with one airline eating up many others.... like here in the USA... so wish them luck and maybe some routes to the USA next year which Belgium could use in my book!

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 00:07 Everything you just mentioned was done by BA
https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/in ... djustments
It's good to read that you have changed your initial it's no big deal into it's quite relevant because passengers have the right to cancel.
sean1982 wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 00:07 So were the tabloids wrong? yes, as usual .. much to do about nothing
No, the two newspapers were not wrong. Most probably they were contacted by BA customers that were unaware about that right to cancel (example: customers who hadn't booked yet).

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

JustPlanes wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 07:11 They will make a lot more money flying ACMI this winter than empty planes to Hong Kong so probably the right decision... and look at HiFly... they started ACMI with the A340 and now are the only airline in the world to offer the A380 in ACMI. AB is very lucky that this 787 situation is going on right now.... that not only requires a lot of ACMI but it means most of the ACMI carriers are booked up... so a good time to make a name for themselves in the market!

I find it weird that there are "non supporters' though... don't all of us aviation fans want more airlines flying around... the scene was becoming pretty boring with one airline eating up many others.... like here in the USA... so wish them luck and maybe some routes to the USA next year which Belgium could use in my book!
Optimism won't help them. Only realism can. They don't need moral support: they need business. And one has to look at the hard reality now. So let's talk about money. Many people here (including myself) don't pay a full fare ticket. Many fly for free on their own company, many are invited (thank you TUI and Brussels Airlines), many pay their tickets with their bosses' company card. But the problem that Air Belgium now has, is that those who pay for tickets themselves, want to know with almost certitude that they won't loose their 2 x 500 € when they pay today for flights in May 2019.

Fact is that Air Belgium can't give that certitude to enough passengers anymore. Hence my opinion: they won't be able to become successfull with scheduled flights anymore. Not for HKG, not for new destinations in China. So they have limited options now. And I agree with JustPlanes (and others) that ACMI is their best option, as I already wrote yesterday:
Passenger wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 15:57 What next? Scheduled flights are excluded because they have lost the confidence from most of the public and most of the travel trade. Ask Connections... ACMI and backups seems to be the only way out, and they have one major advantage towards HiFly, EuroAtlantic and Vamos: four aircraft on standby at location Belgium.

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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 07:55
sean1982 wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 00:07 Everything you just mentioned was done by BA
https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/in ... djustments
It's good to read that you have changed your initial it's no big deal into it's quite relevant because passengers have the right to cancel.
sean1982 wrote: 25 Sep 2018, 00:07 So were the tabloids wrong? yes, as usual .. much to do about nothing
No, the two newspapers were not wrong. Most probably they were contacted by BA customers that were unaware about that right to cancel (example: customers who hadn't booked yet).
Maybe you didnt understand me, I still mean, its no big deal. Like i said, changing it to a B747 would have meant an even older airplane.

Oh, and all customers were personally contacted by the airline.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Air Belgium and Terzakis don't need pats on their backs now (schouderklopjes). They need a new business plan.

When it's about scheduled flights, ACMI, charter operations and other flights with passengers, some knowledge of the travel trade & ticketing business is needed to understand what is going on businesswise. Just one example: the failure of their Chinese tour groups program has costed them 1M € per month.

Furthermore: if critics are not allowed on this forum, most topics here have to be shut down, starting with all topics about Brussels Airport and Brussels Airlines.

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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by luchtzak »

Article in French, confirming the 1M € loss per month:

http://pagtour.info/air-belgium-revoler ... i-airport/

Desert Rat
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Desert Rat »

It is not a confirmation, it's an estimate...and beside the loss, there's also profit, generated by the ACMI operation, so let's put some perspective on this.
As there is revenue, line of credit will not disappear overnight, other big operator face as well issue with credibility i.e. Air France or Lufthansa on strike, Alitalia filing for bankrupcy,etc...
Personnaly, I would not hesitate to fly them to China when they restart scheduled flight next year.
Flying to Africa should be considered as well, focusing on the most profitable route of Brussels Airlines.

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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by nordikcam »

sn26567 wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 12:09
Niky Terzakis:

Dear Fans and non-supporters,

AB is a serious Company driven by a great team of very experienced professionals. It is not a one-man band! AB is Currently employing over 150 staff employees and still aggressively hiring. Suspending a route during a season is a decision made every year by many airlines.


The boss of Air Belgium has good game to say that delete a line that is done in all airlines in the world. That's right, I guess. The problem here is that it was the only one.
Do not come and tell me that everything is fine with CRL or Air Belgium when, in fact, nothing seems to go! No runway, no passengers and no Tour Operator ! It's a little problem no ?

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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by TLspotting »

Air Belgium is extending its contract in the time with British Airways flying until 31 October 2018 instead of 4 October 2018 from London Heathrow to Abu Dhabi. Keeping the same schedule...

BA73 LHR - AUH 12:45 - 22:55 1234567 A343
BA72 AUH - LHR 01:50+1 - 06:30 1234-67 A343
BA72 AUH - LHR 01:45+1 - 06:25 ----5-- A343
Hi. I'm T., spotter and aviation geek. Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

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