Air Belgium in 2018

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jan_olieslagers
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers » 22 Sep 2018, 14:43

If you talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk
And that's exactly what @tolipanebas is NOT doing any longer: talk the talk.

That the rudeness is not evident to all might of course be expected.
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 22 Sep 2018, 14:44, edited 1 time in total.

Ansett
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Ansett » 22 Sep 2018, 14:43

jan_olieslagers wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 14:04
Terzakis can drop a message if he needs help.
I can make TYO work out for them and even MNL by next spring.
So predictable, so funny. Airline in trouble and POP there's the armchair airline managers. Don't give up, such contributions to light entertainment are much valued!
he’s gone very quite since it turned out ( ... )
This is extremely rude. He is gone quiet (sic!) indeed, more's the pity, but how can you tell why? Perhaps he's very sick? Perhaps found other priorities than posting here? Perhaps switched career and no more concerned with commercial air transport?

Sean is indeed a bit arrogant towards tolipanebas, but you are, too, by making fun of "armchair" managers.
If it is good entertainment for you, des te beter/tant mieux.
As another member said recently : there's nothing wrong with dreaming. And this forum is also there to exchange points of view. Not all of them will be realistic. The main thing is to avoid becoming arrogant or full of oneself.

Back to the substance ( :lol: ?) : wouldn't another option or paralell option for AB be to become a second TUI (if there is room for that). There are still unexplored routes which could interest Belgian tour operators, if a direct flight is offered from (hopefully) BRU ?

The armchair manager is thinking of PVR and WDH. Unlike what I wrote in a previous post, suggesting JNB-CPT, I changed my mind. There is already too much competition to JNB. Perhaps regular flights to WDH-CPT-WDH and back to Belgium would be better.

Imho, flights to TYO, ICN or MNL cannot count on enough O&D. And if you don't go daily to such destinations (alone or in code share) you will not be able to attract enough high yield pax.

My to cents from my comfortable armchair ;)

Poiu
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Poiu » 22 Sep 2018, 19:55

Passenger wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 13:16
Flanker3 wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 00:28
I disagree with you strongly. BRU is too expensive and too low yield for an A340 operation.
BRU proofs that they are fine for high and low yield, for low cost and legacy, ànd for whatever aircraft.
Vueling and easyJet reduced their ops at BRU significantly, Ryanair doesn’t expand and Brussels Airlines is struggling to survive. The climate doesn’t look that healthy to me.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger » 22 Sep 2018, 20:06

Poiu wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 19:55
Passenger wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 13:16
Flanker3 wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 00:28
I disagree with you strongly. BRU is too expensive and too low yield for an A340 operation.
BRU proofs that they are fine for high and low yield, for low cost and legacy, ànd for whatever aircraft.
Vueling and easyJet reduced their ops at BRU significantly, Ryanair doesn’t expand and Brussels Airlines is struggling to survive. The climate doesn’t look that healthy to me.
No healthy climate for Brussels Airport? The August 2018 figures contradict that:
https://www.aviation24.be/airports/brus ... -2018-3-4/

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger » 22 Sep 2018, 20:11

sean1982 wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 13:37
You mean when every so called expert like yourself laughed at him because he suggested using single aisle aircraft for medium/long haul? Oh wait ... what are all the airlines doing with the max and neo? :)
If I remember well, those aircraft that were going to run out of fuel when they had to divert were not MAX or neo, but A319LR.

domtom
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by domtom » 22 Sep 2018, 22:06

Passenger wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 20:06
Poiu wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 19:55
Passenger wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 13:16

BRU proofs that they are fine for high and low yield, for low cost and legacy, ànd for whatever aircraft.
Vueling and easyJet reduced their ops at BRU significantly, Ryanair doesn’t expand and Brussels Airlines is struggling to survive. The climate doesn’t look that healthy to me.
No healthy climate for Brussels Airport? The August 2018 figures contradict that:
https://www.aviation24.be/airports/brus ... -2018-3-4/
Actually, I read on airliner world forum that Cathay isn't doing well on their Brussels route. Is that true? maybe Brussels Hong Kong just doesn't work. There's quite a few destinations already served out of Belgium.

TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by TLspotting » 22 Sep 2018, 22:31

Then what about Shenzhen?
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Passenger » 22 Sep 2018, 23:17

domtom wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 22:06
Actually, I read on airliner world forum that Cathay isn't doing well on their Brussels route. Is that true? maybe Brussels Hong Kong just doesn't work. There's quite a few destinations already served out of Belgium.
Cathay's HKG-LHR-HKG is the seventh best route worldwide, turnover figure (source: OAG). So maybe BRU is weak, compared to that LHR result. But now, with the CRL-competition gone, things will improve for CX.

Flanker3
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Flanker3 » 22 Sep 2018, 23:25

Amavro wrote:
Flanker3 wrote
It never ceases to amaze me how "managers" hope to run yield management from day 1 on routes without feeding and with heavy competition, only to price themselves out of the market. So much for being a "disruptor".

Scarce return tickets at 450 EUR return, but mostly at over 500 EUR return
In the meanwhile CX is at 570 EUR return from BRU while BA is below 500 EUR via LHR. AB can't promote themselves like this.

A word of advice: start selling at max. 299 EUR return in Y, 999 EUR return in C.

If I were the CEO,

If they continue like this, they won't last. It looks like they don't know what they're doing.
I hoped for them to succeed but like this they don't stand a chance.
You should start an airline. You seems to know the job. "Air Flanker", and let's see which one between you and N.T knows better how to rule an airline ;) I know on which one i would bet... :roll:

Furthermore, the CX's prices are not around 570. The average price is higher. For BA, what a joke. Randomly, i got 885€ (Tue 10/07 - Sun 15/07). I request a screen for a price below 500..
We need to look at what has been said and conclude that it's challenging to start an airline.
Also, when Flanker waves a flag, you can take note.

I've looked at their fares as a potential passenger. I was open minded about trying them out on a BRU-TYO route, booking the HKG-TYO sector separetely. 550, 600, 650, 700 return in Y.
Not bad for someone who travels O&D, but still not very competitive.
It just didn't make sense.
It's not easy but also a bit naive to put so much work to achieve something that is not very realistic.

I also predicted that NH would succeed in BRU and they are doing great. From what I've heard they want to upgrade but what they need is more premium seats and not more Y. So the B789 is not a good upgrade, perhaps they will upgrade to a B77W, at least seasonally?
A lost opportunity for SN, that's for sure.

I predict that CX will stay but they could go seasonal. They offer connections in HKG to South East Asia and they offer timings that are different from other operators in BRU. With Air Belgium gone, they will see more stable business for HKG, but the winter will be challenging.
If they see it as an investment, they'll be fine long term. They are a great alternative for the ME3.

But Air Belgium needs to work on niches that exist and there is a niche.
Low cost long haul to Asia can succeed if done right.
Obviously, they need to launch in spring, not now, but they need to start prepping right now if they want to make it. And they need a yield manager that has a broader view and doesn't continue to do what he did at his last airline.
It's a start-up, the first goal is to get volume. The next goal is to get break-even without losing volume. The next step is to make a small profit on each passenger without losing volume. You can't start from the last step and hope that it works out.

Inquirer
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Inquirer » 23 Sep 2018, 11:05

A real pity to see them close their only route already so soon, but clearly their business plan is unsustainable.

A whole lot of people have already put their opinion down as to why they have failed (for now) and what they should do differently to succeed, but none of them has touched the tricky issue of how to get funding for these probably far more costly alternatives: launching even more exotic routes, flying even longer flights, selling tickets even cheaper (and thus slashing the cashflow from which they live) or going into a war with established mega carriers of Asia and the Gulf region all costs money of course, something aviation enthusiasts often seem to forget when they talk up their own passionate desires as good business options.

Allow me to point out it took Air Belgium a very long time to secure the needed financial resources to finally launch only very modest operations and they could ultimately only do so by moving to CRL and picking up public funding from the Walloon government: it should be a good indication there just isn't much desire to waste tens if not hundreds of millions of euro on this type of a startup airline from private investors and although I hate them see closing down already, I prefer that over (regional) government vehicles pouring even more money directly into it.

Something I've said a few times over the past weeks already, each time on different airlines, but if what they are doing isn't economically sustainable, it needs to go asap: simple as that. Aviation is a business these days and there's no room for emotional nationalism or prestige driven adventures.

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quixoticguide
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by quixoticguide » 23 Sep 2018, 13:33

OO-ABB will start flights for TUI
Screenshot 2018-09-23 13.32.00.png
Visit my flights on: http://www.quixoticguide.com

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CTBke
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by CTBke » 23 Sep 2018, 14:38

quixoticguide wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 13:33
OO-ABB will start flights for TUI
Screenshot 2018-09-23 13.32.00.png
start or just temporary as their dreamliners have problems again .. ?
Citybird
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737MAX
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by 737MAX » 23 Sep 2018, 14:41

quixoticguide wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 13:33
OO-ABB will start flights for TUI
Screenshot 2018-09-23 13.32.00.png
I’m quite convinced the need in widebody/long haul ACMI is high. Even in winter time. But I hardly see « Air Belgium » as an ACMI only airline, it would need a more neutral name/paint scheme.

Also, frankly, who would base such an airline in a country where taxes are that high? Portugal & HiFly are probably successful thanks to that, to start with. Good luck in Belgium...

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 23 Sep 2018, 15:12

737MAX wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 14:41
quixoticguide wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 13:33
OO-ABB will start flights for TUI
I hardly see « Air Belgium » as an ACMI only airline, it would need a more neutral name/paint scheme.
One of their planes is still all white.
André
ex Sabena #26567

TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by TLspotting » 23 Sep 2018, 15:40

sn26567 wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 15:12
737MAX wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 14:41
quixoticguide wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 13:33
OO-ABB will start flights for TUI
I hardly see « Air Belgium » as an ACMI only airline, it would need a more neutral name/paint scheme.
One of their planes is still all white.
OO-ABE, indeed.
quixoticguide wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 13:33
OO-ABB will start flights for TUI
Screenshot 2018-09-23 13.32.00.png
25 September 2018 until 27 September 2018 :

TB203 BRU - PUJ 13:00 - 16:15 25/09/2018
TB204 PUJ - BRU 18:00 - 08:40+1 25/09/2018
TB327 BRU - CUN 12:10 - 15:55 26/09/2018
TB328 CUN - BRU 17:25 - 10:00+1 26/09/2018
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Ansett
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by Ansett » 23 Sep 2018, 19:01

@Inquirer : all that you are stating in your post of today at 11:05 is absolutely relevant.
The question we have probably asked already, but is worth asking again, is : why don't Belgian airlines succeed/survive ?
Lack of competent management ?
Lack of competent shareholders ?
Lack of will of the politicians to create an environment favorable to develop aviation, although everybody knows or should know that airlines create a lot of direct and indirect jobs (see the number of direct and indirect jobs lost when Sabena disappeared) ?
Lack of what ?

Perhaps our webmasters could open a separate thread to discuss this subject, so that we can all let free course to our frustrations :cry:

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 23 Sep 2018, 20:18

Ansett wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 19:01
Perhaps our webmasters could open a separate thread to discuss this subject, so that we can all let free course to our frustrations :cry:
Everyone can open a thread to discuss any relevant topic. Feel free to do it ;)
André
ex Sabena #26567

JamesD
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by JamesD » 24 Sep 2018, 09:20

CTBke wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 14:38
quixoticguide wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 13:33
OO-ABB will start flights for TUI

Screenshot 2018-09-23 13.32.00.png
start or just temporary as their dreamliners have problems again .. ?
Has nothing to do with "their dreamliners have problems again" like you mention.
Aircrafts need to have longer maintenance slots from time to time and this particular
one has been scheduled for this week since a long time.

If one of their B737's goes out of rotation for a couple of days due to scheduled maintenance
nobody notices since there are "usually" enough of them to fill the gap. However, if you only
have 2 longhaul aircraft in your fleet, this doesn't go unnoticed ;)

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CTBke
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by CTBke » 24 Sep 2018, 09:36

JamesD wrote:
24 Sep 2018, 09:20
CTBke wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 14:38
quixoticguide wrote:
23 Sep 2018, 13:33
OO-ABB will start flights for TUI

Screenshot 2018-09-23 13.32.00.png
start or just temporary as their dreamliners have problems again .. ?
Has nothing to do with "their dreamliners have problems again" like you mention.
Aircrafts need to have longer maintenance slots from time to time and this particular
one has been scheduled for this week since a long time.

If one of their B737's goes out of rotation for a couple of days due to scheduled maintenance
nobody notices since there are "usually" enough of them to fill the gap. However, if you only
have 2 longhaul aircraft in your fleet, this doesn't go unnoticed ;)
with TUI you never now on which plane you'll be , it can be anything nowadays but there it's 'unnoticed' as it's a long term lease like the Smartlynx and Orange2fly airbusses, thus for the dreamliners it's frequently a different wetlease like Wamos, Privilege and so on ... doesn't the TUI group have spare dreamliners which can be shifted throughout to backup these maintenance slots ? or isn't that the purpose for rebranding all the airliners and operate as one ?
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cathay belgium
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Re: Air Belgium in 2018

Post by cathay belgium » 24 Sep 2018, 10:03

Hi,

Nicky Terzakis CEO replied on the AB Facebook Fanpage concerning the cancelling of HKG.
Seems the chinese travelbusiness is not that trustworthy.... I guess...

CXB
New types flown : A223,AN24,AW139,B737MAX8,B763nonER,DH Dragonrapide,EMB110 Bandeirante, Shorts360,Autogire MTOsport2010

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