Air Belgium in 2018

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Bralo20
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Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 13:48

Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Bralo20 »

sn26567 wrote: 16 Feb 2018, 21:03 It's the same administration, the BCAA, that delivers the registrations and the AOCs. One can hope that their people speak to each other.
The problem is, even though it's the same administration, there is no legal groundwork available to refuse one a registration. While the BCAA can withhold an AOC they cannot do so for a registration unless they have proof that the plane has legal issues or has no insurance for example (and even the insurance is a non issue since you technically only have to provide a proof of insurance on the day of registration, nobody can stop you to cancel the insurance right after registration to save funds (i'm pretty sure this won't be the case here since Air Belgium doesn't own the planes and are probably contractually obligated to insure the planes (or maybe the lessor provides the insurance, which is also possible)). Few reasons can stop a registration (non-limitative and small example list): Invalid or incomplete paperwork (which can be something simple but can also be very extensive), it has been marked stolen, there's been a lien placed on it, etc... If it's all clear and nothing is wrong with it and you pay the fees for the registration the BCAA has to register the plane even if they know for example that they won't issue an AOC to the airline (which I hope won't be the case).

Anyway, we'll still have to wait and see. Personally I don't think it's the smartest move they could do, I have the impression that the registration of the planes and the press briefing earlier this month was solely to put pressure on the BCAA. While they might eventually grand an AOC (and probably will do so), the BCAA can make it very hard for AB to operate with surprise inspections and being more though than they normally would be. The BCAA has the power to make an airline very miserable if they want to... It's a federal government agency that you want to keep happy and certainly in these days when there's a lot of scrutiny, back in the days you could get away with it by offering some incentives (free flights, some gifts, etc...) but today it's being frowned upon (at least). I've enjoyed the good old days when I needed some paperwork from certain federal government agencies and a few cases of decent wine or something did the trick :mrgreen: and fast tracked everything but slowly this all changed. So today it's more to keep the agency in question happy by not being to annoying than giving incentives ;)

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Bruspotter
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Bruspotter »

Hi,

Yes, true indeed. Thats why i wondered...because what point would it have to assign aircraft to a carrier without AOC granted. Fingers crossed...

Grts,

Poiu
Posts: 848
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Poiu »

Bralo20 wrote: 16 Feb 2018, 22:12. Personally I don't think it's the smartest move they could do, I have the impression that the registration of the planes and the press briefing earlier this month was solely to put pressure on the BCAA. While they might eventually grand an AOC (and probably will do so), the BCAA can make it very hard for AB to operate with surprise inspections and being more though than they normally would be. The BCAA has the power to make an airline very miserable if they want to... It's a federal government agency that you want to keep happy and certainly in these days when there's a lot of scrutiny, back in the days you could get away with it by offering some incentives (free flights, some gifts, etc...) but today it's being frowned upon (at least). I've enjoyed the good old days when I needed some paperwork from certain federal government agencies and a few cases of decent wine or something did the trick :mrgreen: and fast tracked everything but slowly this all changed. So today it's more to keep the agency in question happy by not being to annoying than giving incentives ;)
Whilst incentives are closely monitored, lobbying is still happening though!
The press conference and the registration are a clear message that newAB is not ready to give up, despite fierce lobbying against them.

convair
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by convair »

Poiu wrote: 17 Feb 2018, 13:09 despite fierce lobbying against them.
source?

Poiu
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Poiu »

convair wrote: 17 Feb 2018, 14:44
Poiu wrote: 17 Feb 2018, 13:09 despite fierce lobbying against them.
source?
Usually well informed source, which, obviously, wants to remain anonymous

airtrainer
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by airtrainer »

Bralo20 wrote: 16 Feb 2018, 14:11
Anyway, I'm glad they didn't paint it due to the incorrect order of colours :mrgreen:
Will you say this each time you post on this thread ? :roll:


About the paint, would anyone guess where the job will be done ?

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Yuqu12
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Yuqu12 »

I'm fairly sure it will not be at CRL as they don't have the facilities. If it is true that the first A343 will arrive next week, it might be logic that the paint job will be done somewhere close to Belgium. Are the painting facilities in MST big enough to handle an A343?

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Airbus330lover »

They can operate the first flight with a white plane... No problem with the paint .... Let AB paint the second plane and switch in due time

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MiStEr-T
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by MiStEr-T »

For the cabin, they'll keep the Finnair layout and in-flight system ?

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Passenger »

MiStEr-T wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 15:59 For the cabin, they'll keep the Finnair layout and in-flight system ?
Just a recap:
OO-ABA = ex Finnairs' OH-LQB
http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a340-835.htm
OO-ABB = ex Finnairs' OH-LQC
http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a340-844.htm

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by sn26567 »

MiStEr-T wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 15:59 For the cabin, they'll keep the Finnair layout and in-flight system ?
Not sure about that. You can find the layout and the features on their website: http://www.airbelgium.com/en/classes
André
ex Sabena #26567

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CTBke
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by CTBke »

those are clearly AY seats with an AB touch :)
Citybird
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Sai
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Sai »

sn26567 wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 17:59 (...) You can find the layout and the features on their website: http://www.airbelgium.com/en/classes
Auch...only 31" pitch in economy class :o
That's a first in Belgian aviation on a long-haul aircraft.
All the way to China... :shock:

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BrightCedars
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Location: Brussels, Belgium

Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by BrightCedars »

I think 31" is OK as long as the seats are not as hard as SN's. My last BRU-IAD and back was a bottom killer.

These 10-11 y.o. A340-300X are probably good enough in terms of range and consumption at current oil prices; they were mostly phased out when the oil was more than double what it is nowadays.

I'm still not convinced about CRL, particularly due to the runway length and the penalty it induces in payload and full power take off but I guess if the business model works they'll go for something more efficient later on.

I'm pained to read that there are background games against them. What we need is free and fair competition. As long as things are safe, if people are ready to take the business risk they should be supported.

SLM
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by SLM »

Still no AOC?

Shonix
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Shonix »

Poiu wrote: 17 Feb 2018, 14:53
convair wrote: 17 Feb 2018, 14:44
Poiu wrote: 17 Feb 2018, 13:09 despite fierce lobbying against them.
source?
Usually well informed source, which, obviously, wants to remain anonymous
Not that hard to find out who they are...

That's why I wish every success to Air Belgium. Some people might get really pissed if the airline soars on the market.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Passenger »

SLM wrote: 21 Feb 2018, 07:59Still no AOC?
Me thinks that the registration of OO-ABA and OO-ABB in the Belgian air register means that they have indeed their AOC.

However, there is a second permit needed before they may sell tickets and organize commercial flights: "licence d'exploitation" - "exploitatievergunning".

FR:
L’octroi et la validité d’une licence d’exploitation sont lies à la possession d’un Certificat de transporteur aérien (Air Operators Certificate ou AOC) valide.
https://mobilit.belgium.be/fr/transport ... ploitation

NL:
De verlening en de geldigheid van een exploitatievergunning zijn afhankelijk van het bezit van een geldig Bewijs luchtvaartexploitant (Air Operators Certificate of AOC).
https://mobilit.belgium.be/nl/luchtvaar ... vergunning

Bralo20
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Bralo20 »

You don't need an AOC to register a plane. The sole things needed to register a plane are valid paperwork (concerning that particular plane).

If you personally (or through a company/organisation) want to register a plane and you have valid paperwork for set plane there's nothing that limits the BCAA to issue a registration for that plane. If you pay the fees connected to the registration than the government is happy to give you a registration. Bad luck for you if that same administration for some reason don't want to issue an AOC or and exploitation permit, in that case you just registered a heavy brick of metal which you can't use (or maybe hope that someone with the AOC and permits is willing to dry lease the plane(s) from you (if you are the owner of the plane or the owner lets you sublease the plane).


;)

But who knows, maybe the BCAA finally gave in but if I were Air Belgium I would have shouted it from the rooftops already in that case :mrgreen:


Bralo20
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Bralo20 »

It's something but it isn't the AOC (yet). It even specifically says "This approval does not constitute an authorization to operate the types of aircrafts referred in paragraph 1. The authorization to operate the aircraft is the Air Operator Certificate (AOC)"

The in the last page, the approval schedule:

Permits to fly authorised: NO

Yet it mention an AOC number on the first page?

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